"proof that the christian god can't exist, debunked"

Ok, Christ wasn't payment for our sins. I'll go along with that. All knowing God uses the free will of the people(in your opinion) to kill His son. If this is to be considered a debt remittance then what you have is God paying Himself.

No, but I've carried live turtles from one side of the road to the other just to avoid them being killed crossing. However I'm not aware of anything significant about my act other than denying a turtle the chance to die unnaturally.

 

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M*W: To those turtles, you were god, even though turtles are generally known to be atheists. Everything is relative, I guess. All I know is that if I were about to be run over by a speeding garbage truck, I would want you to be there.

 

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This is similar to the no atheists in foxholes axiom. The atheist turtle about to have the word GOODYEAR tattooed on his shell will suddenly become a theist, pray for a miracle and then see his rescuer as a God or sent by a God, the Turtle God in this case.....the name escapes me for the moment

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Michaelangelo?

MW: Would the speed of the garbage truck have any special relevance to a sluggish turtle?

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PsychoticEpisode,

That's not my opinion.
As for your question; Was it our free will or God's will that killed Christ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=O2cu5HauS1E

jan.

 

It was God who intentionaly created the scenerio which woud inevitably lead to Jesus bein naled up... so how is God not responsible for Jesus bein killed.???

 

At least you're getting it. Jan seems to think humans are responsible because every creature acts according to its own nature. Does God count as a creature?

I see a reason with this logic to divide humans into two species, theist and atheist. Under no circumstances would I want to kill Christ as that is my atheist nature. However I can't say the same for theists. I for one do not appreciate being lumped in with theists, particularly when killing is going on. When was the last time an atheist killed a savior?

I don't get it. In one thread God is predetermining and in the next one he isn't. If God's nature is to predetermine then Christ's death was God's doing. If he didn't and only set the stage then He isn't omniscient. Awfully hard to be omniscient and not own up to premeditation.

Even if that doesn't account for our actions, just knowing about it means He could have stopped it at any time. But He didn't, and He's just as guilty as the people who did Christ in.

 

God created the esact nature that each creature has.!!!
God havin "free-will"... he had an infinite number of creaton plans at his disposal... he intentionaly chose a creaton plan which included Jesus bein dead for a couple of days... the pupets who cruesified Jesus are not to blame in any way whatsoever... God pulled ther strangs... they had no choise but to dance to his tune.!!!

 

If you are a Calvinist, this is correct. But non-Calvinist christians believe that people can always not be bad, even if they have been bad before. That Pilate or the specific roman soldiers or the mob could have woken up, even after yearning to see Jesus die for ages, and decided

what the hell am I doing...

and struggled to see he did not die. Sort of like there is a little speck of non-causation inside of each of us, from which one can freely choose.

If you think free will is impossible...well...the theists you are arguing with, then, cannot control their beliefs, so it is pretty silly to argue with them or get irritated, hell, at anyone - though of course you can't help it can you, lacking free will yourselves. The whole thing is like a play written long ago and we just get to watch.

But if you do believe there is free will or maybe there is free will, then you can think of Christians as people who think this was given to people by God - along with all other attributes of the universe.

And so God did not kill Jesus, though he definitely put him in potential harm's way. Sort of like how Bush and Obama do with US soldiers. Not a nice thing to do to your son in my limited opinion, but heck, Jesus is back in heaven for eternity. I think even a wimp like me could deal with a few days of agony if I was guaranteed eternal bliss. And since Jesus was also God, well, he was a big boy and agreed to go along with it.

 

Yes... but i cant emagine how a speck (or even a lot) of "non-causation" coud equate to "free-will".???

We not only watch... we're active partisipants... an the realization that ther is no "free-will" does lessin my irritaton wit people/life in general... an yet i feel as if i have "free-will"... its like i have my cake an eat it to

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Yeah... i have a feelin that a God woud create thangs the way he wanted 'em to be... well... unless hes som sort of flunky God.!!!

 

Unless, of course, God purposefully created a reality within which He could not predict the future. At face value this assertion seems to lead inevitably to an omnipotence paradox, but I don't think it's inevitable at all.

One of the most amusing and thought provoking responses to the age old question of whether or not God could create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it is as follows: God could create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it, then lift it. After all it should certainly be possible for an omnipotent being to set the conditions that allow one thing to be true and then alter those conditions to allow the opposite to be true. He can always lift the rock, if He chooses, but for a time He enforces a set of conditions that make it impossible. At any time however He can remove or alter some or all of those conditions.

This is how we can have omnipotence and free will at the same time. God has created a reality within which He is unable to predict, with 100% certainty, what people will choose to do. Perhaps this is a fundamental aspect of human consciousness, or perhaps, and possibly more likely, it is a fundamental feature of reality itself from which consciousness emerges. The important question here is whether or not God's ability to create a reality within which He can not with absolute certainty predict events is at odds with the idea of omnipotence. When considering this question, also consider that it is within God's power to alter the fundamental nature of reality, or certain aspects or parts of it, at any time that He chooses, to make anything and everything knowable again. For now, however, as it is critical to him that free will exist, He lets it. Anything that He knows in advance is attributable to his superior insight and His ability to intercede occasionally at critical points throughout history in order to ensure that certain things occured. This is why you see Jesus going out of His way to make sure certain prophecies were fulfilled in the bible. They weren't fulfilled as a natural consequence, rather, Jesus would say something like "I did this to fulfill the prophecy...". I don't read the Bible these days, but I'm sure there are a bunch of other people here who can pull out the precise examples if anyone is curious.

Of course, some of you are going to get stuck on the idea that the moment God can't know something, even if He is responsible for manufacturing the circumstances within which there is something He can't know or can't do, then He is no longer omnipotent. As far as I am concerned, that is complete nonsense. He is capable of knowing and doing anything and everything always, and the fact that He sometimes strategically chooses not to know something, sometimes even going to the trouble of creating an entire physical universe so profoundly incredible that the smartest human beings in the world stuggle to understand some of it's most basic attributes, in order for that to be possible, doesn't suggest to me at all that there is some kind of limit to His power. God could create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it, THEN LIFT IT. That's what omnipotence is.

I'm throwing this bone to all you theists because although it's not going to satisfy everyone here, it's a hell of a lot more compelling than any of the tired old arguments that every atheist has heard a million times before. It reduces all the nonsense to a single question which concerns the nature of omnipotence. Everything else derives in one way or another from this single consideration.

 

But that is not the point, what you can imagine. Or do you think that you are capable of imagining how all true things might work or exist?

Well, then what seems like cake and eat it too for theists should seem quite understandible to you.

Perhaps God likes being surprised. Perhaps he or she decided to be entertained, amongst other unfathomable motives.

I think the whole

If God exists God should act in ways that make sense to me

is a pretty odd claim.

I am quite sure the logical behavior of a neurosurgeon or pilot would surprise me and shame my best guesses. Let alone how they would be beyond someone tribal living in New Guine (sp?). Let alone what a Godlike vantage would make clear one should do.

Get what I mean.

People trying to prove that God can't exist because they think they can show he or she ain't acting logically by their estimation are making just as huge a claim to knowledge as theists.

They know, somehow, what a God would do if one existed. This is just silly.

And atheists tend to attack the theologians' version of a Christian God as if this was the only God that might exist.

Hubris on several counts.

 

Did God not know the out-com of that reality befor he created it.???

 

I believe I addressed that in my previous post. But if you're seeking clarification, let me put it to you this way. If we assume that there is indeed an omnipotent being who is invested in our affairs to the extent that He wants us to choose to follow him, it is of critical importance that we be free to choose. This requires that there be such a thing as free will. For free will to exist, God can not know the future with absolute certainty since that would require a fully deterministic reality which would be incompatible. God does however understand enough to make some pretty accurate guesses, and whenever things end up too far off track, He intercedes to bring them back in line with His master plan. So even though He has created and is choosing to be bound by a set of conditions that prevent Him from knowing absolutely everything, He can exercise enough control over the situation to achieve his desired outcome.

Again, at any moment, God could choose not to be bound by such limitations, but the moment He did the whole thing would come undone.

 

Did God not know the out-com of that reality befor he created it.???

None of that answrs my queston:::

"Did God not know the out-com of that reality befor he created it.???"

Ether he did or he didnt... Yes.???

 

I've answered your question. I answered it before you asked it, and then once more after you asked it. So how about you just say what you're obviously itching to say so we can examine that.

 

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
Yeah... i have a feelin that a God woud create thangs the way he wanted 'em to be... well... unless hes som sort of flunky God.!!! ”

So mayb God did create thangs the way he didnt want 'em to be... lol... im basin my arguments on mane-stream Christan beleifs... if sombody wants to argue based on what i consider non-mane-stream beleifs im mor than hapy to escept an discuss ther particular inturpitaton of the Holey-Bible... so you'r above argument is mute.!!! ]

Im speekin for me... its the Christans who have beleifs in... an clame to have knowledge of God... i dont have such beleifs or make such clames... an as far as "proof" goes... i dont thank anythang can be "proven"... my arguments in this thred are about the logic of som particular beleifs.!!!

Sure atheists likely use mane-stream beleifs to discuss... thousands of beleifs cant be discussed all at the sam time... an It woud require diferent threds... but i (an prolly mos atheists) woud discuss the logic of any God beleifs/clames... so that makes you'r above argument a bit lame.!!!

 

My queston can be answrd wit a yes or a no... you clearly dont want to discuss the issue or you woud answr my queston... im oK wit that.!!!

 

You can answer your own question.

As you are interested in the god of the Christians, you
can look in the bible and pinpoint exactly what God' intention was, when
He created "the scenario" (genesis is the obvious place).

Happy hunting.

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jan.

 

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
It was God who intentionaly created the scenerio which woud inevitably lead to Jesus bein naled up... so how is God not responsible for Jesus bein killed.???

My inturpatation of the Holey-Bible is irrelevent... i dont have beleifs that its true.!!!

You hent that the Christan God ant you'r God... so what are you'r beleifs that relate to the issue of this thred an we can discuss that.???

 

Actually your interpretation is relevant, if you are sincere about the question
you are asking, otherwise you can draw your own conclusion, which defeats the objective. Belief in God, however, is irrelevant.

I refer to the "god of the Christians" on the basis of your specific enquirey with Doreen. I am not a "Christian" but I believe in God, whether it is the God
of Islam, Christian, Judea, or Vishnu. They are different aspects of the same one God, IMHO.

jan.