Stop arguing!!

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by coberst, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. coberst Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    949
    STOP ARGUING!!

    I cannot count the number of times that my mother would shout “STOP ARGUING!” at one or more of my siblings and me.

    Years later I learned that ‘argument’ had more meaning than was contained in those youthful experiences.

    I obtained an engineering degree and then later studied philosophies before I learned the much broader and important meaning of the word ‘argue’. When I studied “Logic 101”, in philosophy class, my worldview expanded significantly. I did not realize until later that this expansion of my worldview was to change my life completely.

    It seems to me that the forum members who participate in a thread approach the experience invigorated with much the same attitude as does a boxer entering the ring or a soldier going into battle.

    Metaphor entailments (to transmit or to accompany) we live by:
    He attacked my argument.
    I have never beaten this guy in an argument.
    If you do not agree with my statement then take your best shot.
    I shot down each of his arguments.

    We approach a forum response much like we approach a physical contest. We have a gut feeling about some things because our sense of correctness comes from our bodies. Our “gut feeling” often informs us as to the ‘correctness’ of some phenomenon. This gut feeling is an attitude; it is one of many types of attitudes. What can we say about this attitude, this gut feeling?

    Metaphors We Live By, a book about cognitive science coauthored by Lakoff and Johnson, says a great deal about this attitude. Conceptual metaphor theory, the underlying theory of cognitive science contained in this book, explains how our knowledge is ‘grounded’ in the precise manner in which we optimally interact with the world.

    “The essence of metaphor is understanding one kind of thing in terms of another…The metaphor is not merely in the words we use—it is in the very concept of an argument. The language of argument is not poetic, fanciful, or rhetorical: it is literal. We talk about arguments that way because we conceive of them in that way—and we act according to the way we conceive of things.”—Lakoff and Johnson

    Let us say that in early childhood I had my first fight with my brother. There was hitting, shoving, crying, screaming, and anger. Neural structure was placed in a mental space that contained the characteristics of this first combat, this was combat #1. Six months later I have a fight with the neighbor kid and we do all the routine thing kids do when fighting.

    This is where metaphor theory does its thing. This theory proposes that the characteristics contained in the mental space, combat #1, are automatically mapped into the mental space that is becoming combat #2. The contents of combat #1 become a primary metaphor and the characteristics form the fundamental structure of mental space combat #2.

    This example applies to all the experiences a person has. The primary experience is structured into a mental space and thereafter when a similar experience is happening the primary experience becomes the primary metaphor for the next like experience. This primary metaphor becomes the foundation for a concept whether the concept is concrete experience or abstract experience.


    What I am saying is that for some reason the Internet discussion forum member considers engaging in a forum thread is a competition, it is a combat, and the primary combat metaphor is mapped into the mental space of this forum experience and thus the forum experience takes on the combat type experience. It seems to that is why lots of forum activity gets very combative.

    Is it any wonder that the adrenalin starts pumping as soon as we start reading the responses to our post?

    Do you feel like you are in a battle with me after reading my claims?

    Is this why most replies are negative?

    Another way that argument resembles war is that both in war and in arguments there is a great deal of bluff and bluster with little intellectual activity.
     
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  3. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    One of the reasons this is the case is that ideas lead to actions lead to the way we live and what we experience. Here in an internet forum ideas that appear cruel - perhaps indirectly - or ridiculous, ideas that directly affect our lives can be confronted in ways that are trickier in the outside world. Even with the people I disagree with here, say in the Religion and Philosophy forums (though more the former), I understand that I represent, on occasion, ideas they consider problematic in real ways that relate to real living people. So much as it is not always pleasant to feel I am arguing with someone who is trying to win or is irritated, I do understand why. I dislike it when points are made that work only as attacks or point winners and are not simultaneously clear and relevent responses to what I have written. I think despite whatever tensions my underlie a disagreement, it is important to try to further the ideas being exchanged. If this, at the same time, wins points, well I figure that is part of the process.

    As far as the metaphors involved, certainly people do carry over conceptions from fighting into discussions. But I also had discussions with siblings and parents that were not based on struggle and these get carried over too. There is no single underlying metaphor for most of us for what a discussion is. There are metaphors of exploring, unraveling, exchange, etc. So I think often when there is fighting underlying an exchange, it may very well have to do with the specific topic.

    Last, I think it is important to point out that some people do not realize they are aggressive. Condescension for example, I've noticed can be present in a post and the writer is quite oblivious to this. IOW the person checks their own behavior against a metaphor for 'fighting' and thinks ' I am not exhibiting behavior for which fighting is an appropriate metaphor' and then is surprised when people respond with irritation to their 'innocent' posts. In this ways metaphors can be misleading as guides for avoiding participating in these kinds of dynamics.
     
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  5. coberst Registered Senior Member

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  7. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I've read that book and most of Lakoff's subsequent books. I don't think what you wrote above here in this post contradicts anything I said, though it seems presented as if it did. Notice that I referred, in the portion of my post you quoted, to metaphors underlying discussions. I don't think everyone treats all 'exchanges' here - note another metaphor - as arguments right off the bat. So the fact that discusions here become, often, arguments, is not mechanically dependent on one possible metaphor for arguments, since we have, as you point out here, other metaphors, even for arguments, let alone the options we have for viewing the interaction as something other than an argument. So there must be other factors present, which was what I was getting at in the post above.

    Any thoughts about the ideas I presented there?
     
  8. coberst Registered Senior Member

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    Our concepts are dependent upon our experiences. I did not intend to imply that it is otherwise. However, my experience leads me to conclude that most people see "argument" as a verbal form of combat. I suspect that many people learned the word "argument" from their mother shouting out Stop Arguing, you are driving me crazy.
     
  9. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    4,101
    OK. But I am still wondering why what could be a discussion is seen as an argument.
     
  10. takethewarhome midnatt klarhet Registered Senior Member

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    625
    A discussion is a fight that involves words and concepts rather than knives and stones.
     
  11. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    Around here, it appears as though some folks like to use words as knives or stones...

    It's interesting how so many people seem to think that if you disagree with them on an issue, they must insult their opponent as much as possible rather than discussing.
     
  12. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

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    993
    Productive debate is a highly evolved skill.
     
  13. coberst Registered Senior Member

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    949
    It depends upon what concepts we attach to the matter. If we attach the concepts of ARGUMNET IS COMBAT our discussion becomes a verbal altercation if we attch the concept that the discussion has become ARGUMENT IS A JOURNEY then we will look at discussion as an attempt to reasonto together to solve a problem.
     
  14. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    4,101
    Again:

    [bold added]
    I present some ideas in answer to this in my first post.
     
  15. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

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    993
    Argument is generally just stating opposing opinions back and forth. Discussion or Debate is generally a more civilized pursuit with each side trying to understand the other, provide external support for their arguments and finding logic or other errors with the opposite side's argument or support.
     

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