James R "Kaffir" is not an insult.

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by EmptyForceOfChi, Mar 2, 2011.

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  1. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Sam your definition "A kafir is someone with the inability to understand or accept the Islamic God." Just curious, what is the definition is of one that does have the ability to understand but outright rejects the Islamic God?Also, what is the definiton of those that believe in the Islamic God but do not have the ability to understand the Islamic God?
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I would say that anyone who rejects an Islamic tenet is collectively called a kafir. The term generally denotes someone who knows what Islam is and rejects it. There is a chapter in the Quran which clarifies the definition and meaning of the word

    That question was partly answered in my response to Geoff on the question of faith or Iman. Being a Muslim is a process, going from islam [belief in one God]-->iman [faith in and commitment to God]-->ihsan which is related to the Arabic word hassana or ahsana and denotes all that is good and fulfilling and can be compared to a state of nirvana or oneness with God.

    There are many opinions on what constitutes the process [here is a generic one which is pretty mainstream] but I prefer the explanation that Mawdudi gave in his Fitna-e-Takfir:

     
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Ah. "Good and fulfilling". And those nasty kafirs are outside this boundary.

    Well, that certainly doesn't sound judgmental.

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    I also see your reading of Mawdudi leaves something to be desired:

    In other words - and again - those who don't believe as you do are "kafir". EDIT: Which apparently is a very bad thing.

    My question is why you use this word, Sam. Why so judgmental? Does the Quran not say "to you your belief and to me mine"? While that only implies the tolerance of difference of belief, and that it's still possible within that framework to attribute negative values to other believers (calling them "disbelievers" would certainly be a start), can you not see that genuine tolerance could also be read from that passage?

    Out of interest, which Mawdudi is this one?
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You mean why have a word for those people who reject Islam? Thats called language. There are also words for the faithful [momin], idolators [mushrik] evildoers [munkar] good people [mohsin] etc. Its part of the structure of languages to have words which have meanings.

    Not to make an issue of it, but Christians believe that all those Jews who do not accept Christ will be killed. Not really what I would call hasana myself. Even Jesus must be suffering panic attacks at the thought of all that genocide awaiting him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, I quite agree. And it's some of these words, with their meanings, that some racist small-intellect types like to dredge up for one genocide or another, eventually. This is why I object to their use. It gives them weapons I have no need for them to carry.

    Whoa whoa whoa: who believes that all Jews will be killed? "Christians". So...all of them, I guess. Is that what you mean? It's funny, though: I don't believe that. And I know a lot of others that don't either.

    It's just that a certain mod on here has a very hard time when someone uses a group label to jointly accuse all members of that group. I disapprove of it too. I wouldn't want you to get in trouble.

    By the by: which Maududi was that again that you quoted from? I'm just looking to expand my understanding of your interpretation of your faith, you see.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Well one cannot be held responsible for what semi-literate racists think about other languages - even if it offends them to the point of genocide.
     
  10. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Into the lion's maududi

    Interesting. I dropped a small report about your indirect accusation of racism, above. Sorry: kind of zeroed out on that crap, and glib slander doesn't translate into a point of view, if you know what I mean.

    Neither does ignorance, of course: so which Maududi was it you were quoting from again? Heck, maybe you're right and I'm the evil one. You could help me 'larn stuff'.

    EDIT: sorry again. You edited your initial post, so I edited my quote of you back to what you had before, so that it was clear what I was responding to. Shall I drop the report, since you may have changed your mind about the oblique insult?
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure which Mawdudi it is. Are there many of them? I merely read Fitna-e-Takfir and thought that his position on kufr/takfir made sense. Is there something about his position on the topic you would like to debate? I'm not a fan of religious walis myself and I disagree with most of what they write, but that does not mean that I am incapable of recognising what makes sense when they come up with it. As an "academic" you probably recognise that one is required to cite those authorities whose ideas you circulate, when you discuss them.

    You know I have vast experience of your limited abilities to recognise responses to your fallacious arguments, which is why I clarified [not edited] my post - if you note, I did it before I read that you had reported it. And not a moment too soon, it seems. Its funny how paraphrasing "some racist small-intellect types " into semi-literate racists makes it an insult to you. Not that it makes any difference to the argument. If foreign language terms are offensive to the provincial mind, they can always substitute them with terms in their own language which make them feel better about themselves. For every kafir there is a disbeliever in English.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    One or two. But...you read Fitna-e-Takfir and you don't know which Maududi it is? :bugeye: Sam...I find that a little hard to believe. Tell me: what's his first name? That should be easy enough to track down, surely?

    Did you read it online? If so, could you post the link here? I appreciate that one doesn't agree with everything a given 'academic' writes, but surely gross citation implies some level of agreement, especially on such sensitive and central issues as what makes a Muslim a Muslim. If it's a particularly sensible digression, I'd certainly enjoy reading it, and more about the man who wrote it.

    What a touching response. I might add that I have at least a voluminous experience of your sidelong slanders and under-the-table allegations. I do appreciate your all-too-understandable edit; I will write posthaste to take the appropriate steps.

    Rather the "offends them" part, retrospective to the "racists" bit.

    Oh, Sam: why do you engage in this? What for? We both know what that comment was all about. At least have the courage of your convictions.

    I thought we'd agree that this was an offensive word? Or at least our authorities have.
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Lol, thats rich, coming from you. Anyway, I find it interesting that while the word kafir is at least as old as the Quran, it was only in South Africa that white racists used it as a pejorative. One assumes that in Arabic kufr has always been called kufr as it is till todate. So why did white racists start using it against people of colour?

    And wtf does it have to do with white Americans who reject Islam but are offended when they are called the Muslim word for it?
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Well, certain Muslim 'modernists' have been happy to recycle the negative nature of the word, of course; but it's not at all clear that it was innocuous in the first place, and seems rather the other way. Did you read my posts on it? Seems pretty clear.

    I'm not sure. What does that have to do with the term being an offensive description of non-Muslims?

    Er...sorry, not seeing the "white Americans" connection here...oh, you mean me, of course.

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    Round and round we go, eh?

    Now: back on recent topic. Which Maududi was it you read from?
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You just said "non-Muslims". Is that offensive to you?
     
  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    No, but the k-word is, because it's unnecessary. Certainly in English, anyway.

    Now: which Maududi was it you cited from? Can you provide your cite, please? This is third or fifth time I've asked you.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Why isn't it offensive?

    Thats the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different response.
     
  18. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Because it's not a pejorative.

    That's what I was thinking, as I answered your question for the nth time above.

    But you have a point. Maybe it's better to ask: why won't you give your source for the above?

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  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So its a pejorative if you are called a kafir, but not if you are called a non-Muslim. So if a Muslim says,"GeoffP is not a Muslim" or "GeoffP rejects Islam" thats okay, but if he says "GeoffP is a kafir" that is an insult.

    Is that correct? You object to the use of the term in its Arabic equivalent? But you have no problem with the same meaning being conveyed in English?
     
  20. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    "The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different response."

    Now, again: why will you not give your source? Hmm? Why won't you explain which Maududi you mean? Should I assume you have falsified this point?
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Not a different response. I want to clarify exactly why you are offended by the term kafir, as you neither a South African black or a Sri Lankan or hopefully a hysterical citrus. You object to the appellation in Arabic but not its English equivalent. Is that correct? You consider the Arabic equivalent as a pejorative. Is that correct?

    The source is Fitna-e-Takfir. In usual academic circles author and book is considered a source.
     
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    It certainly isn't. I think I've made myself quite clear, both in the modern and ancient senses of the word. Que sera serais, if you'll excuse the pun.

    But not if you consistently refuse to properly identify an author. Last name alone is insufficient for this purpose, regrettably. Surely he attached a first name to his draft, no? Or does he go by only one, like Prince?

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    Or...you'll forgive me if I speculate wildly...is there some...other reason you won't tell me who this individual is?

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  23. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I suspect Geoff is in denial.
    (And denial is something its power we should not underestimate.)
     
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