Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by quantum_wave, May 20, 2011.

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Did he or didn't he?

  1. No

    75.0%
  2. Yes

    25.0%
  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Sam

    Its Romney's statement as response to the speech not a discussion where many people have made the comment. He said Obama 'disrespected' Israel, threw it 'under the bus'. That's it. You're reading too much into it.

    The US purse string. If the US wanted to throw muscle behind the speech they would have simply said the US is going to stop all funds to israel until it agrees to whatever agreement. Obama simply coming out and making a speech doesn't equate into real political force or a moral imperative. Its a speech. How many speeches have been made by US presidents on this issue? How many of them have actually gone so far as to remove actual support? And by actual support I mean military and financial.
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Okay, I get your point. Agreed. Hence my focus not on rhetoric but on actual suggestions. IOW, what are the suggestions of these Pro-Israel factions in terms of what they want for Israel? What do they recommend as the acceptable American position on Israel?

    Earlier, Bells commented that Israel does not want the presence of its troops on the Jordanian border

    However the facts indicate otherwise:

    So what does Israel want? What do Israel supporters want?
     
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    @Sam

    I'm not even sure they know. I'm sure there are varying degrees of suggestions from different quarters of the public but I'm not surprised Netanyahu didn't make a list of what he would like to see as a solution, the reason being not wanting to show ones hand outside of the negotiating table. Of course there is no negotiations at the moment.

    That blog piece is only speculation, we cannot say for sure what reasons they may have which I'm sure are multifarious.

    The US isn't an honest broker so I wouldn't put too much stock into anything they say. The day I take them seriously is the day they cut off the 3-6 billion Israel receives every year and fire themselves as brokers.

    Actually even if they gave them the money but refused to be the peace broker I would feel better about their role. At least it would be honest and then the israeli's and palestinians can deal with the Norwegians or whomever.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    Probably to be determined when the settlement expansions stop of their own natural accord.

    Security purposes supposedly.

    The fear that Jordan may attack again, so many years since the war?

    Your guess is as good as mine.

    You need to ask?

    We are talking about a man who praised that his economic policies affected the birthrates of Palestinians. You really need to ask?

    Which would be?

    In short, nothing.
     
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Its not unusual. Just think of the military demilitarized zone between North and South Korea. U still have US troops there 'so many years since the war'. Its not uncommon in situations where there are underlying hostilities even if they are technically not at war.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    So basically just more rhetoric which is essentially meaningless:

    IMO, the two state solution is long dead and it looks very much as though this is what the Israelis believe.

    So what will Obama do in September? Will the US support Palestinian statehood along the suggestions that American Presidents have made in the last 60 years as they simultaneously financed and armed the occupation?

    Or will Obama succumb to the Israeli will and deny the Palestinians their liberty?
     
  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,879

    Well yes I think its meaningless rhetoric. Obama isn't going to do anything, all he can do is make suggestions or try and use financial or political arm twisting. He will never withdraw full support because it wouldn't be supported by the rest of government.

    You know this is where I think people have it wrong. The president whether it be Obama or someone else cannot grant Palestinians a homeland or liberty as you put it, there isn't a solution that doesn't require Israeli acquiescence. They cannot force israel to do anything. They can use the UN to pass sanctions if it likes, it can even use military force but this last option would never be on the table by any nation unless we are heading into a third world war. What is it you would like to see Obama do?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2011
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I've made no secret of the fact that I support a one state solution.

    So whatever Obama is doing is just fine by me. Anything that makes a two state solution impossible contributes to a one state solution.
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    But that's just it, he cannot give them either. There can only be a one state solution if the Israeli's decide that's what they want. If what Obama is doing is fine then everything the US has been doing from the beginning was fine. I mean after all what have they done?:shrug:
     
  13. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    6,045
    HellO Lucy

    I hope you are well.

    Actually in 1967, Isreal attacked first through what they term their pre-emptive strike. So it was a pure war of agression on Isreals part!

    As for Obama he is a complete waste of time, what viable palestinain state does he think is going to be created? They go on about isreali security but what about palestiniajn security. they talk about a viable plaestinain state but how can yoube viable if you will not be able to control your borders or airspace and have an army to defend yourselves!!

    The OP is some sort of a joke..
    Obama is just as much as a waste of space as bush junior, however he is probable worse then bush junior, at least bush was a a bit of a laugh
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Hey Zak,

    I'm doing well thanks for asking. You're right, my bad they did airstrike Egypt, BUT Egypt did mass thousands of troops into Sinai and I'm sure it wasn't just so their infantry could enjoy the view.

    I agree with your assessment. The Israeli's have effectively cornered the Palestinians, rendering any possible independence useless.
     
  15. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    23,049
    I have never understood how a country is even sustainable when part of that country is completely surounded by another country so there can't ne the free movement from one part of the country to another. Sure the US has a similar situation except they are big enough so that there is an airport and has sea access. Gaza is completely isolated by another country
     
  16. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    Hello Lucy

    yes you are right Egypot did mass troops in the Sinai however according to Yitzahak Rabin they were no threat as the numbers were insufficent..

    this is from le-monde

    "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68



    What you also need to bear in mind Lucy is that Egypt was getting involved in the Yemen Civial war at the time which meant that they ahd a ton of soldiers tied up over there.
     
  17. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Give me a break SAM.

    You aren't that gullible so this has to be intentional.

    Why do you post these balatent LIES??????


    http://adland.tv/content/horrific-fake-ad-week-subaru-car-running-over-palestinian-children
     
  18. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    6,460
    If Obama threw Israel under the bus, then US presidents have been doing that since the first day they started talking about a "two-state solution". What else could a two-state solution possibly mean? Did right-wingers expect that the Palestinian state would consist of an office building in Ramallah?

    Israel has officially accepted the principle of a two-state solution for almost two decades now. A two-state solution automatically implies that there will be a border between said states. Since Israel has yet to officially declare or propose any such border, and Obama has proposed one for them, something is better than nothing, and talk about American betrayal rings completely hollow. If Israel's government was sending America $3 billion+ per year and sacrificing its international standing to stick its neck out on America's behalf, it would be a different story.
     
  19. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    So you advocate the destruction of Israel? What is reasonable about that?

    What is any more abhorrent than the charter of Hamas, which has not been amended or rejected and states the following: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: Oh Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”
     
  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    9,879
    Yeah like 100,000 troops. That's hardly what I would call 'insufficient' :shrug:
     
  21. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    oo lucy,
    well Yitzhak Rabin, you know one of Isreals greatest military general's seem to think there were insufficient Egyptian troops". he was the cheif of staff at the time...

    I am no way near qualified to argue with Rabin on matter like this, are you???


    And when has 2 divisions ever been 100,000 men???
     
  22. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Of sorts. There is nothing concrete to back it up. Such as suggesting sanctions against Israel and the Palestinian Government if they refuse to come to the table (cutting financial aid for example).

    It seems a large portion of Israelis prefer a two state solution and giving Palestinians their independence and allow them to finally self govern without Israel's interference or dominance. Unfortunately, the right in Israel wish to dominate all the terms for such an event, without giving anything to allow it to happen.

    Of course not.

    He has explicitly stated that the Palestinian push in the UN in September will fail. And here is why he believes it will fail and why he, nor the US will not support it:

    For the Palestinians, efforts to de-legitimize Israel will end in failure. Symbolic actions to isolate Israel at the United Nations in September won't create an independent state. Palestinian leaders will not achieve peace or prosperity if Hamas insists on a path of terror and rejection. And Palestinians will never realize their independence by denying the right of Israel to exist.

    (Full transcript of speech)


    He and the US won't support it unless Hamas goes away and/or changes its identity completely and recognises Israel as a State and stops the missiles.

    You mean he hasn't already?

    If he wanted to purely fight for the rights of Palestinians to have their liberty and basic human rights, the funding for Israel would have been slashed long ago and all military aid would have ceased also. That neither has should be answer enough for you. Believe it or not, Bush was actually the last President who threatened to withhold and withdraw a portion of the aid to Israel .. nothing good ever came of it really.. but it's interesting.. don't you think?

    I wonder what the reaction would be now if such a proposal was ever made again by Obama?
     
  23. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    The funding is the only thing that guarantees the US will have any influence at all over Israel.
     

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