Did Pres. Obama throw Israel under the bus?

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Hamas openly embraces the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as truth. I don't know of a more racist document.

 

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Based on what?

The Economy of Israel is a technologically advanced market economy[6], consisting of a rapidly developing high-tech sector, which is backed by a strong Venture capital industry. Israel possesses a substantial service sector and the Israel diamond industry is one of the world's centers for diamond cutting and polishing. It is also a world leader in software and telecommunication development and is a major tourist destination with 3.45 million foreign tourists visiting in 2010. The major industrial sectors include metal products, electronic and biomedical equipment, processed foods, chemicals, and transport equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel

The Economist ranks Israel 23rd for quality of life.
Israel's quality of life is higher than that of Singapore, Slovenia, South Korea, Argentina, Hungary, Poland, and Mexico, but lower than that of Hong Kong, Germany, France, the UK, and the Netherlands, according to a quality of life index published by the the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU).

EIU put Israel in 23rd place out of 177 countries, and in 25th place in per capita GDP.
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-136446946/economist-ranks-israel-23rd.html

RA'ANANA – is the "SAFEST CITY" in the MIDDLE EAST.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra'anana

Israel a vibrant country
Having just spent the past three weeks in Israel, I'm happy to report that, rumors to the contrary, Israel is alive and well and thriving.

http://www.seattlepi.com/default/article/Despite-concerns-Israel-a-vibrant-country-1252013.php

Life expectancy is a quite high 81.6 years

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...ntry:ISR&dl=en&hl=en&q=life expectancy israel

 

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I think the implication is meant to be demographic, to judge by the comments of Sam et al: that Israelis will be outbred and that civil war plus 'ethnic cleansing' will then deal with the remainder of them.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty much expecting the same story to play out for many years to come:

"Israel is a racist country. Let's get rid of them now!"

*War begins*

"Baaawwww, why are they bombing innocent civilians?!! Why can't they just accept their cleansing like mature adults?! Assholes!"

 

And racism amongst occupied peoples, and racism amongst occupiers, and racism against occupiers, etc. Racism is endemic to all human societies. It isn't localized in Israel or wherever - it isn't even particularly egregious there, by regional or global standards. By far, the most openly, proudly racist people I've ever met have been Saudis.

There's also the small matter of your own raging racism, which you persist in using to turn this forum into a cesspool.

 

@Bells

Get your reading glasses out Hilda its going to be a long one.

B: I don't even know who or what Hilda Ogden is?

Doesn't surprise me neither did she.

B: Israel conducts its internal policies and laws like other restrictive 3rd world countries. Wow.. There's a revelation.

So what? That's NOT what SAM was addressing with her remarks. The US uses torture and has the death penalty like third world countries. And?

B: You have a problem with how Israel's laws are forcing how Israeli Jews lead their day to day lives, to the point where some aren't even Jewish enough to marry certain Jews? Take it up with them.

What do you not know how to read? Are you 5? Its SAM who has a problem with Israel's laws concerning marriage which by the way they are able to do religiously or not which you would know if you bothered to read through the bloody thread. Why didn't you take it up with Sam? *face palm*

B: Her words are just as bad as your own.

Really? Show me. I would like for you to show me where I use disparaging remarks towards palestinians or jews for that matter. I mocked HER, for her idiotic bigoted statements. Just like I mock you for yours.

B: Possibly because you only concern yourself with what she says of Jews?

Just as I concerned myself with how Willnever tried to categorized the Chinese or other's muslims. But hey I know you take offense to anyone pointing out Sam's obvious odious comments. We should all turn a blind eye or just accept it because eh…well…you know…they're only jews.

B: Have you thought of asking her about the restrictive laws and practices in Muslim countries and actually sought her opinion?At a guess, I would say the answer is no.

Either you are being disingenuous or you simply didn't read the thread. I have been dialoguing with her continuously throughout this thread. I asked and she didn't care to discuss it, she did what she always does which is ignore the questions, obfuscate and evade. But you wouldn't know that since you didn't read through thread did you.

B: Did you miss the part where Israeli Government Ministers stated that assimilation with anyone on the outside of their religion is akin to finishing what Hitler started with the Holocaust?

And that addresses Sam's attitude how? How does that excuse her desires that they are all bred out of existence? Or her Sasquatch references? Hell listening to her maybe the ministers have a bloody point!

B: Don't you get it yet? Israel's Government is pushing the country and its Jewish inhabitants towards a point where inbreeding would result.

What like the Amish have been inbreeding for centuries? Give me bloody break. But I'm sure they would be really happy to know you care so much for the welfare of the Jewish people. Now let's see? An Ashkenazi jew of Russian decent marries a Sephardic jew of Moroccan descent or two secular jews get married. How the hell does that turn into inbreeding? Are the Aboriginals inbred? Tribes from the Amazon? The bulk of Japanese families who have married nothing else but other Japanese people for generations upon generations? Use your head for christ's sake! Are you trying to say that the Israeli government is trying to get their citizens to marry their brothers, sisters, and first cousins? NO! There are certain sects in all cultures that practice endogamy and none of them save the Spartans have been 'bred out of existence' because of the practise.

B: Their marriage laws are archaic and deeply sexist, where women are being denied the right to marry who they want, even if they wish to marry another Jew, because it is they who have to prove their matriarchal line or be found ineligible for marriage. This is something that is being discussed in Israel and even in the UN. We're talking about a country whose Government views assimilation with others as being akin to a genocide and the Holocaust. They sound more like David Duke than anyone else could.

And Sam notwithstanding. Tell me, I actually know Israeli's, I don't know about you but I know a fair amount of Israeli's and not one of them complained that they were forced to marry anyone the didn't choose nor were prevented from marrying those they did choose. Hell I know one (ashkenazi) who married a Danish friend of mine and they go literally live between both countries, and she has not converted and she is welcome in his family. What you are confusing are the examples of religious clans within their society with the greater society. Why is it you fail to notice this law:

'A minimized version of the civil marriage bill passed its second and third Knesset readings on Monday, with a majority of 56 Knesset members voting in favor of regulating the nuptials of "non-denomination" Israelis.The new law allows non-Jewish Israelis, or citizens defined by the State as lacking religious denomination, to marry via the soon-to-be-formed marriage registrar bureau.'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...863253,00.html

Or this:

In 1962 the Supreme Court determined that the Ministry of the Interior must register as married couples who married in a civil marriage abroad, even if either or both of the couple were citizens of Israel. This judgment was interpreted as a minor technical issue, as the act of registration was said to be for statistical purposes only, and not a recognition of the personal status of the couple, as registration does not determine the validity of the marriage.

In a judgment given in November 2006 retired President of the Supreme Court Aharon Barak ruled that the recognition of a civil marriage entered into abroad extended to its validity and recognition as a marriage for the purpose of Israeli law, overruling a rabbinical court which had determined that a religious court had the authority to decide the validity or otherwise of a civil marriage entered into abroad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriag...civil_marriage

Is there a reason you seem to miss these basic facts? What does this do to your argument that they are preventing jews from marrying other jews? Or anyone who isn't a jew for that matter? They do do it, they're families may not approve or their society may not like it but it can be done.

B: And what is your complaint? That she does not criticise Muslim countries for their breaches against human rights... Really?

RUBBISH! Keep up! I criticize Sam for how she characterizes jews AND for making statements like this: "I think that situation - where you have to prove religious lineage going back generations for a legal marriage - is not present anywhere else." So I go about showing her in post#639 that it does indeed happen in other groups. I criticize her for taking a slither of religious tradition and pretending as if its somehow describes the whole of Israeli society. Its nonsense or rather I should call it propaganda. She would like to make it seem as if the Israeli's are soooo different from the rest of humanity (saskuatch references and all), the real baddies of the world, a shit backward racist society, but fails to point out in the interest of intellectual honesty that "Muslim men may take wives from Christian and Jewish populations but Muslim women are normally forbidden to marry outside of the muslim community."

B: We have a country that holds itself as the West in the Middle East.. the pocket of democracy and rights. And the reality is far different. Maybe you should write to the UN and Haaretz and other Jewish media in Israel and accuse them of sounding like Duke for discussing something that makes you uncomfortable.

Really? You've obviously never been to Tel Aviv. The US Bells is considered the bulwark of democracy and human rights and they go about doing undemocratic things that interfere with the rights of other's all the time. As a matter of fact Australia has always been considered a 'pocket of democracy and rights' until it came to Aboriginals. As a matter of fact the land you are living on right now is stolen land. Stolen right from under the indigenous people who were ethnically cleansed, murdered, dispossessed, treated like second class citizens etc etc. My point is Bells, which nation outside of Scandinavia and maybe Liechtenstein can call itself democratic and protecting human rights that hasn't had a history or isn't continuing to do the exact opposite in regards to one group or another? Do you know of any? Why aren't you advocating for the demise of the Australian people because of the transgressions against the natives? And by the way are you guys still holding illegal immigrants in camps?

In short I take the point of 'pocket of democracy' and the inherent hypocrisy with an 'And'? Notice how these points don't do one thing to help the Palestinian cause? Here you can go and read all about how Australia which has long been on the list of 'democratic' societies that hold up the lantern of human rights makes the list of human rights abuses: http://www.globalissues.org/article/148/australia-and-human-rights

You're in good company along with the US, Europe, China, Indonesia, Burma and Israel. Funny isn't it that you can still call yourself a democratic society and still make the list with other 'third world nations'.

B: If Israel's Government keeps going as it is and kowtowing to the ultra-orthodox right, then its reality will become what Duke prattles about.

News bulletin: An official survey in Israel has shown that 44 per cent of Jews in the country over the age of 20 define themselves as “secular”. Twenty-seven per cent said they were “traditional”, 12 per cent as “traditionally observant”, 9 per cent as “orthodox” and 8 per cent as ultra-orthodox. Among the Arab population, 11 percent defined themselves as very religious; 49 percent as religious; 21 percent as not so religious; and only 18 percent as not religious at all.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/secularjewsinisraelarebettereduc.html

Don't mistake politically motivated policy with realities on the ground. Most Jews would not be willing to go and live in the occupied territories and join what they themselves consider to be religious freaks.

B: And who do you think you're talking to?

You obviously or you wouldn't have responded.

B: Will has never denied his race issue. That thread was closed for a reason. If you disapprove, you have every right to take it up with the administration.

Oh I don't disapprove. They didn't have to shut it down but I wasn't going to let it go unchallenged…kinda like here with Sam. What I find amusing is the inconsistency. You jump in to defend Sam for an odious comment and then go on to call other's who challenge it 'retards'. Nice.

B: Maybe if Israel payed for the land it wanted to build it's settlements, half of these issues wouldn't have arisen.

Ditto for the US and Australia. Oh I forgot the US and Australia subjugated engaged in ethnic cleansing and then 'voila' rid themselves of the issue (for the most part). Kind of reminds me of another modern day nation…*face palm*…now let me think which one could it be….

B: Israel is already destroying itself with its internal policies. No one has to wish for it. One only needs to watch.
Really? Evidence please.

B: But you? You seem to support the Israeli Government policies which restrict the rights of Jews to marry the Jews they want to marry and the rights of women. Which frankly, makes you more of an anti-semite than you could ever accuse Sam of being.

Really? Go on then, go back and show me where I support Israeli government policy then we can have a real conversation because after reading that stupid comment its obvious you don't know shit of what you're talking about. You, I don't mind saying, are simply ignorant. Or maybe blindly stupid, I don't know.

 

I should mention, you guys ought to take a look at the Wiki article on Israeli racism that S.A.M. linked to. She took care to cite all the most damning portions, but I think it would be good for everyone who's interested to read through the same article and see all the counterpoints she chose to exclude.

No doubt racism in Israel is a serious problem, and I have a hard time seeing it get better as long as the perceived victims are backed by foreigners with racist agendas of their own. If I was raised to believe half the world is out to get me, and half the world is telling me my existence on the land where I live is illegitimate, I'd probably believe in what I was taught.

 

She's done that before. Maybe she doesn't really read through her links before posting them or maybe excluding information is just a way to present Israel in the worst possible light. As if they are doing anything that isn't being done on a regular basis historically and presently by many countries, that doesn't excuse them but it doesn't make them the grand-daddy of evil nations either.

Yeah I agree about the hypervigilance. There's a great documentary about that called 'Defamation'. Its made by an Israeli who goes about showing how the ADL among other factors works to give Jews the feeling that they are in a world where everyone hates them and is out to get them. The exclusivity works against them but on the other hand this paranoia isn't really unwarranted either as we can hear from comments regularly posited by Sam and others, or the reality that many of their nations neighbors would like to see them annihilated. The problem is separating the truth from the unreality. He goes to show how the ADL is really hurting Jews and his camera's eye offers a brilliant birds-eye view of how the myths created by others once internalized and reinforced by ourselves can turn destructive.

Its a must watch. I highly recommend it: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/defamation/

 

Yes, that's a good movie.

 

My favorite part was when they visited the orthodox community in Russia just to find they were living quite peacefully and well with their neighbors and then the Rabbi goes on to talk about how its the non-religious jews who need the mantle of anti-semitism to be defined as a jew and not the religious jews. I'm paraphrasing from a scene here but I trust you recall the part I'm referring to.

 

A religious jew of the order you described would not want a civil wedding would they Sam? And the paper's are not to prove 'jewishness' its to prove lineage which is something different. Just like the royals of old one could be a national of the country for generations upon generation but what they were looking for in a prospective spouse was a specific lineage. The pool of people you are speaking of are too small to make it an issue.

But there is another way of looking at this. You can get married in some American states if you're a homosexual but you probably wouldn't be able to get a church wedding. The catholic church can refuse to marry a gay couple and refuse to acknowledge their union, that doesn't mean that the civil marriage they would undertake isn't recognized by the specific sates where its allowed.

 

Anyone who disagrees with anything that I say in this thread (including, emphatically, this sentence) is a cannibalistic baby-rapist with a portrait of Hitler hanging over their bed, who spends their weekends torturing small animals to death, masturbating in public and laughing at Dane Cook "comedy" routines.

The matters of disagreement here, as usual, are tangential to any questions of actual policy support. These threads are typically arguments between people who all basically agree about which policies are preferable, over the question of whether advocacy for such should be principled and accurate, or bigoted and stilted. The thing about internet criticism of Israel, is that it immediately puts you in the company of nasty antisemites, and you end up spending all your time and energy differentiating yourself from them (supposing you aren't one to begin with - in that case, you spend all your time trying to tar the non-bigoted faction as supporters of Israel and therefor morally inferior to yourself). There is an important difference - both practical and moral - between principled criticism of Israel, and siezing on Israel as a socially-acceptable outlet for anti-Jewish bigotry. That difference is compassion. So when you see people expressing gleeful fantasies of Israel's demise, the world turning against the Jews, etc., you have a pretty good indicator that said people are in the bigot camp.

Note that the reactionary element of Israel is more than happy with this sort of stalemate. Indeed, the bigots are in the habit of complaining about exactly that, at length. And yet they never seem to do the math - lack of self-awareness, or ethical back-bone, I guess.

 

@Bells

That's the stuff! I make a post refuting all of your mis-representations, show of ignorance on the subject at hand and complete lack of knowledge of what has been discussed and then you go on to say 'I don't like Sam' when Sam and I, though I call her out on her bullshit, basically can not only communicate very well when she's not popping hysteria pills, but we talk privately as well. So I don't 'hate' Sam and Sam knows I don't hate her but she's really irritating when she's being coy about her truly irrational dislike for Israelis and jews. And not only that, she's been able to continue to discuss this subject with me and I with her, its seems its only you who hasn't gotten off the potty and only you who seems completely oblivious to what everyone has been saying about Israeli marriages and the law. Like I said you're ignorant and so you rant about something that isn't even really happening, even between Sam and myself personally.

Sam, if you haven't noticed, hasn't had any problems dialoguing with me after these so called bitchy rude comments you claim I've made towards her. Did you chastise her on her bitchy rude comments about jewish inbreeding and Sasquatch comments? No. Were you being rude and bitchy with your snide comments about Retards etc? You're a hypocrite and assume too much of what you don't know since its obvious you didn't read through the last few pages of this thread and you didn't have the guts to answer my post for which I don't blame you because it was a damn good post. A post by the way which dealt with the subject at hand, unlike your rantings.

So tata Mrs. Ogden. You've certainly earned your title today my dear.

And you of all people call me a harpy *sniffs*, its enough to make my cold bitch heart break.

 

And this is the express view of the government of Israel, yes? In which Charter may I find it? What part of the Basic Laws covers this?

This is a terrible red herring. Even among herrings, it stinks. The history of the region does not show that assimilation into Arab society leads to peace; in fact, it appears to lead uniformly to repression. A two-state, with equality for all citizens - and that's all citizens, not for a religiously determined subset of the population - is the only option.

 

She won't find it because it doesn't exist. Its the imaginary lawyer in Bells giving an imaginary closing summation at the imaginary world wide tribunal against Israel. Notice how she claims the government is trying to stop assimilation of Jews abroad? Ha! Yeah. Jews are not assimilated in the States or anywhere else in the world at all

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The whole world of secular Jewry has disappeared from the earth.

It shows so much lack of knowledge that one could die from laughter. The only ju she knows is the juicy ju she gave her kids for breakfast.

 

@Bells

Funny that. Where is your evidence that I dislike her? Sam was the first person I talked to when i got married besides Scifes and she's the only one here who knows to whom I am married, that hardly comes about from two people who dislike each other. Haven't sent her the wedding pics as yet but so what. Are you so dim that you cannot see the difference between challenging someone's statements and beliefs on this forum and disliking someone? Towards most members here I'm indifferent when it comes to personal feelings towards them, whatever that means on a forum such as this. There's only one person whom I dislike here and I don't even engage with him at all, but other than that I can slash it out with anyone on this board without it translating into a personal hatred or dislike.

Sam knows what time it is but you evidently do not. At the exact same time I was mocking her for statements in this thread we were engaging peacefully on another, so why don't you take your off-the-butt assessments and put them back where they belong. With you I have just learned not to respect you as much as I had, which is something I wouldn't even say for Tiassa with all of the hateful mud-slinging that has gone on between us.

You could just actually try and stick to the topic at hand and address what I wrote in post#687 and prove how smart you are but I know, I know too difficult isn't it.

*psst* Hilda Ogden is no more. Waaay before my time. Kind of like Sterling from Twilight Zone

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Not only don't you know what you're talking about but cultural irony is wasted on you...which is why you're Hilda Ogden

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