S1867 approved by the Senate

Discussion in 'World Events' started by S.A.M., Dec 3, 2011.

  1. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    SAM's original post was about Iran's DOMESTIC policies.

    You shortened it to just "Iran's policies"

    I think you two are talking about different things.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Nope

     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    In that case you still aren't talking about the same things.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575

    it is quite the norm now for crazed warmongers to use the most bizarre and flimsiest of excuses, patently and falsely manufactured, as a pretext to shed the blood of 3rd world people. they dehumanize thru these methods and call them sub-human. then the bombs can be justified

    Human rights organisations have cast doubt on claims of mass rape and other abuses perpetrated by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, which have been widely used to justify Nato's war in Libya.

    Nato leaders, opposition groups and the media have produced a stream of stories since the start of the insurrection on 15 February, claiming the Gaddafi regime has ordered mass rapes, used foreign mercenaries and employed helicopters against civilian protesters.

    An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for these human rights violations and in many cases has discredited or cast doubt on them. It also found indications that on several occasions the rebels in Benghazi appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence.​


    the warmonger sexes up the rhetoric
    Nato intervention started on 19 March with air attacks to protect people in Benghazi from massacre by advancing pro-Gaddafi troops. There is no doubt that civilians did expect to be killed after threats of vengeance from Gaddafi. During the first days of the uprising in eastern Libya, security forces shot and killed demonstrators and people attending their funerals, but there is no proof of mass killing of civilians on the scale of Syria or Yemen.

    Most of the fighting during the first days of the uprising was in Benghazi, where 100 to 110 people were killed, and the city of Baida to the east, where 59 to 64 were killed, says Amnesty. Most of these were probably protesters, though some may have obtained weapons.

    Amateur videos show some captured Gaddafi supporters being shot dead and eight badly charred bodies were found in the remains of the military headquarters in Benghazi, which may be those of local boys who disappeared at that time.

    There is no evidence that aircraft or heavy anti-aircraft machine guns were used against crowds. Spent cartridges picked up after protesters were shot at came from Kalashnikovs or similar calibre weapons.

    The Amnesty findings confirm a recent report by the authoritative International Crisis Group, which found that while the Gaddafi regime had a history of brutally repressing opponents, there was no question of "genocide".

    The report adds that "much Western media coverage has from the outset presented a very one-sided view of the logic of events, portraying the protest movement as entirely peaceful and repeatedly suggesting that the regime's security forces were unaccountably massacring unarmed demonstrators who presented no security challenge".​
    Amnesty questions claim that Gaddafi ordered rape as weapon of war

    The Independent’s Patrick Cockburn reported that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch had failed to find evidence of a systematic campaign of mass rape and had discovered indications that rebel forces had knowingly fabricated evidence to this effect. Both rights groups were quick to point out that the lack of evidence of a systematic campaign did not mean that sexual attacks and gender-based violence haven’t occurred in Libya, and have continued to call for an investigation into the case of Eman al-Obeidy, the Libyan woman who was dragged away by Libyan security forces after bursting into a Tripoli hotel to tell journalists she had been gang-raped by Gaddafi’s forces.

    That evidence of the scale of crime used to justify the NATO-led bombing of Libya now appears to be in short supply should motivate some soul-searching, however. Though the story of how a handful of unsubstantiated claims became the basis for continued warfare is yet another of pack journalism in the service of nationalist fervor, gender also runs strongly through this tale. While it is important to expose the false or exaggerated claims that are used to rationalize warfare, it is also crucial to interrogate the underlying assumptions that have led to the continued conflation of women’s liberation with military intervention.​
    Amnesty International Finds No Evidence of Mass Rape in Libya: How Should Feminists Respond?

    despite all that these barbarians persists in disseminating these false pretexts as fact. just as they maintain that saddam had wmd's to this day. they dress up these bogus allegations and pimp them out like a $2 whore


    the butcher and rape hysteria!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    it is disgusting the way these warmongers use bogus appeals to emotion in order shed blood

    From 1969 to 2011, the history of Libya was marked by the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (where jamahiriya means "state of the masses"), a so-called "direct democracy" political system established by Muammar Gaddafi, who nominally stepped down from power in 1977, but remained an unofficial "Brother Leader" until 2011. Under the Jamahiriya, the country's literacy rate rose to 90%, and welfare systems were introduced that allowed access to free education, free healthcare, and financial assistance for housing. In 2008, the General People's Congress has declared the Great Green Charter of Human Rights of the Jamahiriyan Era. The Great Manmade River was also built to allow free access to fresh water across large parts of the country. In addition, illiteracy and homelessness had been "almost wiped out," and financial support was provided for university scholarships and employment programs. while the nation as a whole remained debt-free. As a result, Libya's Human Development Index in 2010 was the highest in Africa and greater than that of Saudi Arabia.


    In the early 1970s, Gaddafi created the Revolutionary Committees as conduits for raising political consciousness, with the aim of direct political participation by all Libyans rather than a traditional party-based representative system. In 1979, however, some of these committees had eventually evolved into self-appointed, sometimes zealous, enforcers of revolutionary orthodoxy. During the early 1980s, these committees had considerable power and became a growing source of tension within the Jamihiriya, to the extent that Gaddafi sometimes criticized their effectiveness and excessive repression, until the power of the Revolutionary Committees were eventually restricted in the late 1980s.

    The Revolutionary Committees had been accused of resembling similar systems in Totalitarian countries; reportedly, 10 to 20 percent of Libyans worked in surveillance for these committees, with surveillance taking place in government, in factories, and in the education sector. They also posted bounties for the killing of Libyan critics charged with treason abroad. Opposition activists were occasionally executed publicly and the executions were rebroadcast on public television channels.

    In 1988, Gaddafi criticized the excessive measures taken by the Revolutionary Councils, stating that "they deviated, harmed, tortured" and that "the true revolutionary does not practise repression." That same year, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya issued the Great Green Document on Human Rights, in which Article 5 established laws that allowed greater freedom of expression. Article 8 of The Code on the Promotion of Freedom stated that "each citizen has the right to express his opinions and ideas openly in People’s Congresses and in all mass media." A number of restrictions were also placed on the power of the Revolutionary Committees, leading to a resurgence in the Libyan state's popularity by the early 1990s. In 2004, however, Libya posted a $1 million bounty for journalist Ashur Shamis, under the allegation that he was linked to Al-Qaeda and terror suspect Abu Qatada.​
    Human rights in Libya
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2011
  8. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575

    despite that somewhat nuanced take, i should have done more in speaking out against the bloodthirsty barbarians. i am guilty and wish to apologize. i am guilty of Qaddafi being beaten to death. to his family, friends and supporters, i am sorry
     
  9. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575
    But I also heard over-the-top demonization of the man and his forces – absurd rumors that chemical weapons were being used, that secret guns with poison bullets had been distributed, that, yes, soldiers were being sent out with pockets full of Viagra. Misinformation and rumors, either disseminated as propaganda or in good faith by people willing to believe the worst about their enemies, are common in war zones.

    It's also common on the Internet. The job of traditional reporters is to head that sort of thing off, not provide a megaphone for it. ​
    The Gay Girl in Damascus hoax, 'mass rape' in Libya, and press credulity



    quad: mic check!
    mic check!

    quad: viagra fueled mass rapes!
    viagra fueled mass rapes!
     
  10. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,373
    Further to Gustav`s valuable illumination from behind the Western media veil...
     
  11. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    You do understand that Amnesty International and The Independent and the Christian Science Monitor are all parts of the "Western media" right?

    And that these hyped up conclusions from earlier AI reports of "we haven't found any evidence" are pretty tenuous, for people complaining about credulity and over-reach.

    But since you guys are so enthusiastic about Amnesty International, how about citing their recent reports on this stuff (bolds mine):

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...f43-46d3-917d-383c17d36377/mde190252011en.pdf

    Security forces greeted the peaceful protests in the eastern cities of Benghazi, Libya’s second city, and al-Bayda with excessive and at times lethal force, leading to the deaths of scores of protesters and bystanders. When some protesters responded with violence, security officials and soldiers flown in from other parts of the country failed to take any measures to minimize the harm they caused, including to bystanders. They fired live ammunition into crowds without warning, contravening not only international standards on the use of force and firearms, but also Libya’s own legislation on the policing of public gatherings.​

    In the unrest and ongoing armed conflict, al-Gaddafi forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law (IHL), including war crimes, and gross human rights violations, which point to the commission of crimes against humanity. They deliberately killed and injured scores of unarmed protesters; subjected perceived opponents and critics to enforced disappearance and torture and other illtreatment; and arbitrarily detained scores of civilians. They launched indiscriminate attacks and attacks targeting civilians in their efforts to regain control of Misratah and territory in the east. They launched artillery, mortar and rocket attacks against residential areas. They used inherently indiscriminate weapons such as antipersonnel mines and cluster bombs, including in residential areas. They killed and injured civilians not involved in the fighting. They extra-judicially executed people who had been captured and restrained. They concealed tanks and heavy military equipment in residential buildings, in a deliberate attempt to shield them from possible air strikes by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) forces.​

    Al-Gaddafi forces also engaged in an extensive campaign of enforced disappearances of perceived opponents across the country, including journalists, writers, on-line activists and protesters. Thousands of Libyans were abducted from their homes, mosques and streets, or captured near the front line, frequently with the use of violence. Among the disappeared were children as young as 12. The fate and whereabouts of many of those abducted remained unknown until detainees escaped, or were freed, by opposition forces in Tripoli, and their families’ anguish continued for months. Earlier this year, some of the disappeared appeared in broadcasts “confessing” to carrying out activities against Libya’s best interests or belonging to al-Qa’ida.

    Testimonies of some of those released from detention in Tripoli and Sirte, which throughout the conflict were strongholds of Colonel al-Gaddafi, confirm fears that the disappeared and other individuals abducted and detained by al-Gaddafi forces have been tortured or even extra-judicially executed. The most frequently-reported methods of torture and other ill-treatment include beatings with belts, whips, metal wires and rubber hoses on all parts of the body; suspension in contorted positions for prolonged periods; and the denial of medical treatment, including for injuries sustained as a result of torture or shooting.

    Such violations took place against the backdrop of the al-Gaddafi authorities’ severe restrictions of independent reporting in territories under their control; and violent attacks and assaults on Libyan and international media workers. Dozens of journalists have been detained during the unrest and at least seven have been killed near the front line. The government of Colonel al-Gaddafi also severely disrupted telephone communications and Internet access, in a vain attempt to halt the spread of information about the uprising and the government crackdown.​

    As to the sex crime issue, and Amnesty International's (absence of a) position on such:

    The report does not include information on allegations of sexual violence against women during the Libyan conflict. To gather information on such violations, Amnesty International delegates interviewed Libyan and foreign women in opposition-controlled territories, as well as women who fled to Tunisia and Egypt; medical professionals, including gynaecologists and
    psychologists; women’s groups activists and others; and reviewed some documentary evidence, including video footage of women being subjected to sexual abuse. The organization was not able to collect first-hand testimonies and other evidence to verify the claims, and is continuing its investigations.​

    So, if I was too hasty in citing specific numbers killed at specific points, or in repeating the rape allegations, I apologize. But none of that nit-picking bears on the basic argument - that Qaddafi was a tyrant who used systematic violence and repression to maintain his power, and in particular that he was responding to peaceful protests with excessive, lethal force, disappearances, torture. Dude was openly committed to a program of crimes against humanity, and assisting the opposition in getting rid of him was the right thing to do, both from a moral standpoint and a geopolitical one.

    Or... what? All the torture, disappearances and killing are totally okay, and wouldn't have possibly aroused revulsion in Western audiences, so long as there weren't any regime-sanctioned rapes? Or what? Are you really so sure that you want to enlist in Gustav's troll program?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  12. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,391
    You seem to misplace the origins of the mass rape accusations. They didn't come from me, or even "the Western media."

    But rather, from one Luis Moreno-Ocampo, prosecutor for the International Criminal Court, who still contends that such occurred, and that he has evidence of it, and that formal charges are forthcoming. An ICC investigatory team has just arrived in Tripoli last week to conduct a full investigation:

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...docId=CNG.8c4dcc2ad965b13f24d26452f89c2f49.11

    But apparently the ICC is just another tool in the media conspiracy of brutal Western hegemony, so we should write off everything they say as barbaric propaganda, right? Except, do we then have to applaud the USA for refusing to sign up? What to do...

    There's also activism within Libya itself on this subject:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/11/26/uk-libya-rape-idUKTRE7AP0F420111126

    So while I admit that there is some possibility that these accusations are exaggerated or misplaced, I'm troubled by your willingness to go so far out on a limb just to troll me. Will it have been worth it, if they prove to be accurate? Why worry about dismissing a few hundred or thousand rape victims, when you can call me a shill, right?

    Or can we perhaps sieze this opportunity to all agree to be adults about it, and reserve judgement until the forthcoming investigations by the ICC and Amnesty International (and whoever else) are completed?
     
  13. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575

    ahh
    so i am confused about whether you are some armchair commentator in the us or some journalist/hr investigator with his boots on the ground? good one quad.

    so? your point? in any case how would he know? wasn't it some libyan doctors that first made the allegations which was subsequently parroted by others ? our ambassador to the un, rice also had no problem shilling for war with that hysterical talking point

    stop trolling, fella.

    it is hardly extraordinary that isolated incidents of rape may have occurred. it is however bizarre to assert or countenance the notion that soldiers were dosed with viagra and specifically asked to rape females as a matter of policy. Qaddafi was trying to suppress a revolt not further incite more rebellion

    i suppose one must be worked up to a state of righteous anger and fanaticism before triggers are pulled

    as for the ai account....i am struck how some if not most of the events outlined could easily find its counterpart in actions taken by the usa in its adventures in iraq and afghanistan. too bad no one can hold us accountable, eh quad?. or is the evoked sentiment expressed by a sigh of relief?

    i merely respond as i see fit to your shit just as you do to others. i see no problem. stop freaking out. i respect your intellect and hold you in high esteem. for the most part that is

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    as for "reserving judgement".... this is sci. we are very opinionated here or haven't you noticed?

    /snicker
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Wrt the crippling sanctions passed against Iran as part of the Defense Authorisation Bill

    While it is no longer any surprise that the vote was 100:0 against the US President, what has come to light from the drone brought down by the Iranians [and displayed on Press TV nearly intact]:

     
  15. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    Except that since the program was secret you wouldn't release results from it.

    So saying there is no evidence means nothing when it's a CIA program.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Right, so much better to impose sanctions based on lack of evidence. Anyway, like the WMDs in Iraq I'm sure the so-secret-that-even-the-CIA-hides-it WMDs in Iran will eventually show up
     
  17. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    I said there is no evidence that the CIA has presented from the Drones.

    NOT the same thing as no evidence of Nuclear Weapons activities SAM.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/w...k-on-nuclear-device.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

    http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/...ndterritories/iran/nuclear_program/index.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Yeah yeah we heard...

    Notice that giant sucking sound coming out of the IAEA? Thats the IAEA getting its head out of its ass
     
  19. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    Nope

    Claiming Vyacheslav Danilenko was the scientist is a Strawman as the Soviet scientist was not named in the IAEA report
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Of course. The fact that there is no evidence and no one has provided any names that can be checked shouldn't deter anyone from bankrupting themselves over Irans nuclear weapons program.

    If you want to believe, then no one can stop you

    Ever play dominoes?

     
  21. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,829
    Sometimes the risks are too great to ignore even if the evidence isn't strong.

    This is one of those cases.
     
  22. Gustav Banned Banned

    Messages:
    12,575
    yeah?
    we will look forward to your next post from the front lines
    bye!
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Yeah well not sure how much liberation we can stand from the US :

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    And while you worry about the Iranian women and their lives under sanctions and the ayatollah, give a thought to your own future in a state where the army is advertising for internment/resettlement specialists


    One day you may wake up to discover there is no one left to save you
     

Share This Page