"If I am right, I go to heaven, if you are right, you die anyway."

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by garbonzo, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    No, but were not talking about a single source for this "ancient "scripture."
     
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  3. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    once again, if you are simply talking about acoustic verification many things become significantly easier to validate ...
    :shrug:
     
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    And that's my point precisely : the knowing has nothing to do with any empirical models
     
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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Uhh-huhhhh.
    :bugeye:
     
  8. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    ????

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    jan.
     
  9. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I meant that your answer didn't help me, it just stated a truism -
    "If you're at odds with someone, well, then you're at odds with someone."
    That doesn't really bring the discussion any further.
     
  10. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    It has everything to do with personal experience models, which are empirical.
    Personal experience is still empiry. It's not the usual scientific empiry, but it is empiry nonetheless.
     
  11. anky2930 Banned Banned

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    To the best of my knowledge, no existing religion has that rendition.
     
  12. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What other answer could there be?

    jan.
     
  13. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I'll put it this way:

    Suppose you have been following someone's teachings for a long time. Then, over time, doubt starts to accumulate in your mind. You try to assuage that doubt by following the teachings even more strongly, but it just increases your doubt. Eventually, you realize you are at odds with the person you've followed for so long.

    What do you do?
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  14. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    the thing is that the object being experienced contextualizes the seer (as opposed to the seer providing the context for the object ... which is the standard procedure for anything empirical)
     
  15. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    So ... while seeing a chair doesn't contexutalize me,
    seeing you contextualizes me?
    Seeing God contextualizes me?
     
  16. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Not unless I am someone like the president who has extreme powers that dictate the context others view him in
    yes
     
  17. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I think we have already established, abundantly, how difficult it is to talk to you, so, yes, me seeing you is contextualized by you. You get to have the upper hand.




    I think this is by now a fairly non-controversial point.

    The problem is, at least the way I see it, that non-theists have to just trust theists on what the requirements are for seeing or in any other way relating to God.

    And since theists are generally a very exclusivist and elitist group, this makes it really difficult to approach them, and with that difficulty, approaching or relating to God is practically impossible for non-theists.

    This wouldn't matter if God would be merely a political figure or a film star or some such. Except in some statistically rare cases, the majority of the population can go by just fine without having any personal interaction with important politicans, scientists, film actors etc. Generally, our lives also don't go to shambles when such a politician etc. is claimed to be involved in a scandal, or dies.

    God, however, is in a completely different category. We are supposed to build our lives around Him.
    And yet in doing so, we are expected to trust hostile second-hand and third-hand sources on how to do that.

    You don't see a problem with that?
     
  18. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, I thought you meant what if the truth unravelled by personal experience becomes at odds with someone else.

    I don't think there is a definative answer your above point, as it relies on
    the exact context of the situation. Such contexts, I doubt, can even be fully known by the people involved, let alone someone who is not.


    jan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  19. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Well, to someone who says

    things are obviously all crystal clear with no need for any further discussion or decision-making.
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What is clear, is the denial of God.
    I find it funny hence the smiley/LOL.

    But more importantly, you've by-passed our discussion with something irrelevant. Are you going through one of your changes again? Or has a theist kicked you in the teeth (figure of speech).


    jan.
     
  21. aymanbinmoshi Banned Banned

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    I am not making a fun baby. You all will go to hale, to the deepest region of hale.
     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Do mean ''hell'', by any chance?
    Or is there a region actually called ''hale''?

    jan.
     
  23. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    To you, perhaps.


    Not at all.
    As usual, you bypass my point.


    Did you get bored again? Did you miss me?


    Gee, there's a surfer boy who tears my heart apart on a daily basis.
     

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