Sandy Hook.

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Bebelina, Dec 15, 2012.

  1. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    5,036
    I think it's a combination of getting old and the fact that I've been completely out of weed for the past three years. Slooow braaain. What would the "old" Bebelina say?
    That violence is beautiful? Mmm..
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    That is in no way similar to someone who is not identified as insane (which is quite difficult) and who can access someones gun cabinet (such as a mothers non-semi automatic guns) and take those to somewhere and start shooting.

    Maybe you are unclear as to how crime takes place. Unlike in Minority Report, the crime occurs, the police come to the scene and takes notes AFTER the fact. Then depending on the level of severity either continue to work on the case or file it away. As an example, if your car is stolen, there is nothing the police could have done before the theft occurred to prevent if from happening. YOU can do something, lock your doors, pay for parking, etc.... but not the police. Perhaps they find your car, but, more than likely nope, another citizen will report it as abandoned or its simply parted out and gone. Then its up to you and your private insurance.

    The police are only there to take down notes after the crime has happened. They are not there to prevent crime FROM occurring. That's *gasp* up to you to be proactive (don't go in the wrong area of town, don't walk alone at night, carry a gun to defend yourself, etc....).

    'They' just magically appear and shoot. Really....?

    Do YOU regularly see a psychiatrist? How do we know you are not insane?


    Again, it is not possible for the police to prevent someone from shooting you. Do you understand that? There are plenty of perfectly sane people willing to stab or shoot you for your stuff. Is any of this making any headway? Perhaps we need to send you to see a State psychologist? How does that sound? It's obvious you need some help with these fantasies of the police magically appearing and shooting people. It also seems to be you have some fascination with guns and killing people.

    Would you like to see a State psychiatrist? Would THAT make you feel safer? If everyone were forced to have an evaluation, maybe once every six months, you know - to make sure the State certifies their sanity? You'd like to live in such a society?
    Somalia is (a) run by Warlords and (b) not so unsurprisingly, the places where the 'Government'/influence of the Warlords is least, life is the best. As a matter of fact, an economist showed that the areas where there was the least Government in Somalia, the standard of living was the highest, even higher than in neighboring countries (which in that part of the world State lines are somewhat arbitrary). The evidence actually makes perfect sense, with less government stealing their meager profitability, the people are allowed to build retain their Capital and increase their standard of living instead of having it stolen at the point of a gun and sent off to some central government where it can be wasted on State run bullshit that will never benefit the people of the small tribe it was stolen from. Pretty much just like in the USA ... or, anywhere really.

    But, since you love big government, why don't you move to North Korea? The taxes are high. I mean, if that's your thing.
     
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  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    actually somalia is an example of what happens with out government influence rather than with. also the borders are completely arbitrary.
     
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Actually, Somalia has a Government. And where it is the most influential, you can bet life sucks. Warloardism IS a form of Government. Theocracy IS also a form of Government.

    North Korea is an example of what happens when government grows so large it influences every aspect of a person's life. Government is like a toxin, the more of it in the environment, the sicker the people in that area are. It's a poison.


    What IS Government to you? How is it different from, say, any other organizations of humans?
     
  8. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    so the capone gang was a government? no it wasn't.

    warlordism isn't a form of government its a form of lack of government. somlia has a very weak central government that the warlords aren't a part of. this is just typical libertarian manipliation of terms to get the answers they want.
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    I know you would like it to not be.

    Sure there is.

    (ring ring)
    Car owner: Hello, is this the police? Someone is trying to steal my car.
    Police: We'll send someone right over.

    Result - thief is locked up. This prevents him from stealing your car.

    Really? I assume you don't know any cops. I'll have to tell my friends who are cops that some guy on the Internet said they were not there to keep crimes from occurring - they're just there to take notes. They'll get a kick out of it.

    You don't.

    Let's see if a real, actual story will help you understand:

    Friend of mine was called in on a domestic dispute. Guy went for the cabinet and got tackled. His wife was yelling "he's got a gun in there!" His partner took the gun, they hauled the guy away.

    The police prevented that guy from shooting his wife (and most likely themselves as well.) And then they took him to jail, from which place he was unable to shoot his wife. They even took his gun away. Even though he had not been convicted of a crime.

    Who said anything about magic and shooting people? Sounds like you're letting your imagination run away with you.

    ?? I don't love big government. I prefer a compromise between a government that is too large and a government that is too small.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    For the people living under the direct influence of Al Capone's gang AND the US federal government, for them there are (at least) two governments.

    1) Is Kim Jong-un, First Secretary of the Workers' Party of Korea, Chairman of the Central Military Commission, First Chairman of the National Defence Commission of North Korea, the Supreme Commander of the Korean People's Army, and also a presidium member of the Central Politburo of the Workers' Party of Korea part of a GOVERNMENT?

    2) Is King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud "Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques" and King of Saudi Arabia part of a GOVERNMENT?

    3) Is Queen Elizabeth Alexandra Mary II, Constitutional monarch of the 16 Commonwealth realms, Head of the 54-member Commonwealth of Nations, Supreme Governor of the Church of England and Defender of the Faith part of a GOVERNMENT?

    A Warlord is most certainly part of a GOVERNMENT.
    A Gang leader is no different than any other Warlord.

    When the United States was marching Native American off to die in Concentration Camps, was the then POTUS not, to the Native Americans being raped and murdered and having their homes destroyed and lands stolen - not a War Lord? Was the POTUS somehow NOT part of a Government?


    The Al Capone gang was in competition to see who could 'Govern' the people directly under their influence. IF he had won, and the people of Chicago left to his, and only his rule, guess what? Then he'd be the leader of the Government. As it is, he lost to a bigger gang. The US Government is now the biggest Gang that has ever existed in the history of the human race on this planet. The people who make up the US Government are as we speak selling Bonds that must be paid back by your children's labor, they force you to use USD and then inflate what little you have away - - and if you refuse to pay, they will come over to your house just like any other gang, put a gun in your face and haul you off to a gulag if you dare not pay them their due. That's a fact. And like any gang it is going to grow bigger year after year (the goal of your lovely 'Democratic' Party is to grow another 5% bigger over the next four year up from 20% to 25% GDP).


    So, instead of thinking of Al Capone as a "Government" you may want to recognize what's really going on, the US Government is a gang of thugs because at the end of the day, they like any other gang, resort to violence, intimidation and coercion. We now pay more labor per year then the Peon Serfs under the rule of King George, so I do hope you like those "Free" pot holed roads of yours, because you and yours will be paying for them for the end of time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Well, if we're going to substitute fanciful stories for reality then the story goes: The thief stabs you in the face, takes your phone as well as your car. Or worse, a teacher calls the police while Adam Lanza fatally shoots twenty children and six adult staff to death. See, in the real world the police don't just magically appear wearing white hats and arrest the bad guy. The bad guy kills you. Which is why Citizens must be allowed to protect themselves. A mother was, just last week, trapped in her closet with her two small daughters and shot an intruder WHILE ON 911 with the police, in the face as he reached into the closet they were hiding in to grab this small woman and her children. One more time, the police don't just magically appear. People must be allowed to protect themselves.

    But, it is nice to see you wouldn't dare stand up for yourself. What a wonderful world we've created where the Citizens are too terrified to stand up for their own property - including their body. One wonders if a man grabbed your partner, mother or daughter and started dragging them off into his car. Maybe you're going to call the police and maybe they might get there within the 10 seconds it takes for this man to drive off. While you just stand there and wet yourself.

    It should be noted the Police were to have NO, NONE, ZERO extra civil rights than ANY other Citizen. Oh, how the times have changed. It's now the people scrapping and bowing and pissing themselves. How lovely. So here we have a society of people too scared to stand up for themselves, surrounded by wolves and police that don't WANT you to stand up for yourself. Exactly the OPPOSITE of what this country was founded on. Which is why I stand by my statement we are no longer Americans. We are Citizens of the United States. Two very different things.

    Well, instead of more fancifulness stories lets take a look at what the Supreme Court states. We'll read it right from the horses mouth: No Duty to Protect: Two Exceptions


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    I like how you use the word 'Compromise'. What about rape? Should it be illegal? Or would you prefer some sort of 'compromise'? You know, not too much or too little rape, somewhere in between. Because this is exactly what you are arguing. Why not replace "Government" with "Gang". Now, do you think you would like ZERO gang or maybe a little bit of Gang? I mean, you wouldn't want the gang that is *gasp* to small. Or would you?

    The ideal society is one where there is NO group of humans with the LEGAL right to initiate force against any other group. That is the preference. That is the ideal. This should be the goal. While I admit trying to get people like you to understand that violence, whether by vote or otherwise, is immoral - and I certainly don't see us with no Government any time too soon (if anything I expect much much much MORE government); I'd never say I prefer it, prefer violence, to peace. Prefer coercion to volunteerism. Anyone who suggests otherwise has simply no idea what they are talking about or worse, do prefer violence and coercion. Right now the "Progressive" Democrats want to GROW the Government. They want to be 25% of the GDP. They want more regulations. Soon you'll probably need a licence to use the Internet. How about that? I mean, you wouldn't *gasp* want someone spreading ideas about what Government really is when you look past the cliche' pounded into you after 12 years of Government Schooling. Fear Apple, but love Government - it's there to protect you, for a not so small fee extracted from you by force. War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength; truer words were never spoken. Just do what you're told and let your betters in the Government do the thinking for you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  12. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Taxes in North Korea are quite low. Income and property taxes, for example, were abolished in the 70s. They have no "wealth tax", no "death tax" - apparently they were being advised by someone who thinks as you do.
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    Why not? It seems you'd prefer that to an evil government that would stop him from freely exercising his right to stab you in the face.

    Have you ever had to defend yourself in the real world from a thief?

    I know what I would do because I've done it. Have you?

    Yes, I would. Rape should be illegal. Sex between consenting adults should not be, even if it looks like rape to you. Pretty easy, really.

     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    The ONLY person that can stop him from stabbing me, is obviously me!

    Yes I have and I can promise you, when someone is pointing a gun in your face, or a knife, there is no calling the police. Either you stand your ground or get rolled.

    The last time someone pointed a knife in my face (and told my partner to give him her purse) I told her to run now (she paused for a second but quickly ran) and stood between him and her direction of running and told him he was going to have to go through me. When he saw he wasn't getting a purse or a wallet - not without a fight, he ran away. Yeah, he had a knife and I did worry about getting stabbed, but, I wasn't going to get rolled AND stabbed. F*ck him. The last time someone pointed a gun in my face and told me to give up my wallet, I told him to go f*ck himself and kept walking right on past him without missing a step. He looked a little shocked. Did I worry he would shoot me in the back of my head, yup. But, I wasn't going to give him my wallet AND let him shoot me!

    You think some crazed arsehole who just pulled a knife on you has any honor? He'll just as easily stab you AFTER he gets what he wants.

    So, you are against using force. You understand that making love is not the same as raping someone. Great, so why resort to the use of force when it comes to other interactions in society? Why is it you are so happy to support the Government's use of force against yourself, your children, your neighbors? Why is that? You just can't picture a world where people interact freely and voluntarily? AND yet, I am sure for almost ALL of your interactions from dinners out with friends to drinks at the pub to a game of cards, you were able to interact just fine without calling the police over. Are you so happy to grow the one group of humans that can LEGALLY initiate force against you, your family and your friends?

    Why?

    Depending on your income, you are literally working FOR a government agency or one form or another probably 6 months of the year. Probably the only time you interact with the government is when you're forced to do so, like a licence fee or other rent-seeking activities on the part of our wonderful benevolent Civil Servants.


    Because Kant already defined Anarchy, it's exactly what it's composed of from Greek: an + archos (no ruler). Not no rules. No rulers. That little 'r' makes all the difference. That you'll find it redefined as 'lawless' is because the people who are the rulers understand you think in the words you know, they make sure of the words you know. In that way, they make sure of the way you think.

    No one in Government wants you thinking you could manage life without them. They use fear against you. They actually ask you to fear the others in your society. Be shit scared of the Capitalists the North Korean leaders tells his people. And, they are. Never stopping the question who they really should be scared of.


    All of your interactions today where anarchic. Perhaps you met with a friend and had a coffee. Or a work mate for lunch. I am pretty sure if the government ceased to exist, that you would not jump up and stab your friend and rape his wife. Is THAT what you think people are like? You really do believe people are animals just waiting for the moment to kill you and take your stuff? Then, why haven't they? It's not THAT hard to kill someone and take there stuff and never be caught. It happens all the time - to a very very minority of people. Not because of government, but because most people are not motivated to harm and are actually pretty good people. And, IF you did attempt to do so, you'd be arrested by the police (private) and taken to court (private) and put in jail (private). All the same institution you enjoy would still exist, they'd have to, as you want them to. The ones you do not want, would not. YOU would own a small stake in all of these institutions. While it may not seem like much of a difference, it is ALL the difference in the world. The difference between love and rape. Free voluntarism versus coercion and force.

    You wouldn't, as an example, have to live the next 20 years paying back the 5 mega-banks on the Trillions and trillions of dollars of debt we owe them thanks to our government that can't seem to agree on a few hundred billion, oh, then it takes months of good TV drama - but, when their paymasters needed bailed out they agreed to shovel TRILLIONS of GENERATIONAL DEBT over the weekend... as in, you are yours are going to adjust to a new norm, a lower standard of living with less Civil Liberties (if you can imagine that).


    I'm afraid, much like the North Koreans, you are in love with an idea, but it really doesn't exist. Government is only a collection of humans, just like any other humans - only they, unlike us, have legal recourse to initiate violence against you. If you don't think that sort of power is a draw to the very people you are worried about, well, stop and think about North Korea again. Do you REALLY think it's a coincidence it's not ruled by benevolent Philosopher Kings and instead by power hungry sociopaths. The SAME sort of people exist here, as there. They just dumped three generations worth of debt onto you. Believe me, you are the last, the very last thing, they care about.
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    They have no wealth tax because they have no wealth. They have no private property - everything is owned by the State. Not even their bodies are theirs. So they actually think more along your lines of reasoning. You made it clear, the Farmer OWES the State his labor. His body is not his. It's actions are not his to own. They are the State's. North Korea is a Progressive Socialists' paradise. It's the logical conclusion of Progressive Ideology. No worry about that scary Free-Market. No worry about Capital. Nope, just work and die for the Good of the Society. For the good of the State.


    You did,after all, make it clear it is the Farmer who should be the one paying! By growing the produce - He's the one doing the taking!!! The greedy son-a-bitch! He uses the roads! Make him pay for the very privilege of working! Make him pay for his labor, with his labor!


    And one wonders why things are going backwards in the USSA, Trillion dollar coins for everyone

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    We're all rich! Or, we would be, if it wasn't for the damn Farmers taking taking taking one apple at a time.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    This isn't a gang?



    [video=youtube;BBrMS4waM64]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBrMS4waM64[/video]





    Your tax money, mainly Income Tax, but also Inflation Tax through the Federal Reserves' creation of new money, is paying to teach these young men to murder children. It is obviously sick and wrong and disgusting when Adam Lanza murdered poor small defenseless children .... but then it's patriotic when YOU PAY these young Americans murder small defenseless children?!?! Why? Because it's under the auspices of the State?!

    THIS murder that is happening each and every day is not anarchy, this IS the STATE.

    You understand that right?

    Take a really really good long look at it. Because this is what you are championing. This is what you are arguing FOR. The State. Violence. Coercion. Everything the OPPOSITE of Anarchy. Anarchy hasn't even been attempted. The STATE has. We are living with the State murdering of tens of thousands of children. Year end and year out. A never ending war. Which is why you think exactly the opposite. You have been taught to think the opposite. It's not a coincidence you spent 12 years in a Government run School and came out after a decade plus, championing Government. That you came to think free-markets, capital and voluntary peaceful interaction is scary, but regulated-markets, fiat currency and coercion through force is pleasant. That is insane.


    It just doesn't make sense. None at all. None.
     
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    When you listen these two idiots, is this what you also think.... (note: this is a different video from the one above).




    [video=youtube;PPEV6twzxmE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPEV6twzxmE[/video]




    IMO if we don't want sociopaths like Adam Lanza then we're going to have to take a really really good look in the mirror. Because the way I see it, most of you are all a bit on the sociopathic side. The only way that's going to change is through the raising of an entirely new generation of humans. I'm hopeful that maybe 120 years, maybe these new humans, ones taught to seek out peace and that violence is only a last resort in true self defense will create the big scary anarchy you're all so worried about.

    Until then, I expect things are going to be much much worse. It's pretty obvious who's winning the battle for the hearts and minds. It isn't the Anarchists. It isn't even the Libertarians who also support the State. Just a much smaller one, maybe less than 5% GDP. No, the people winning are the Progressive Socialists. The very same people who destroyed China, Korea, Russia, half of Europe. Your beloved Democrats have the stated GOAL of growing the Federal Government up from 20% to 25% GDP. More regulation. More tax. More license fees. And, don't think it will stop at 25%. History shows that Government NEVER stop growing. They grow and grow and eventually there's more of them then us. Well, and then that's that.


    So, be happy, because soon you won't even have to worry about the small limited access you have to free-market trade. Your beloved government, the one who champions the innocent, helps the hungry, supports the poor. Yup, that one. It'll take care of those choices for you.

    Just remember, the same Politicians in CONgress who played out the "Fiscal Cliff" for months and months were more than happy to come together over a weekend and dump trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars with of debt, generational debt, onto you and your children and their children's shoulders to SAVE the very people you seem to think they're protecting you FROM.
     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    You were wrong about North Korean taxes being high. They are low.

    You are always wrong when you make assertions of fact that can be checked - seriously, you have no accurate conception of physical and historical reality.

    My line of reasoning is to set up markets and the necessary infrastructure, let people take advantage and compete, and tax the winners enough to pay for the setup. I'm not sure what your line or reasoning is, but it appears to rest on the presumption that the winners will pay for all that stuff voluntarily, without being taxed. They never have, in the history of this planet - to a capitalist investor, the economy is a commons. Hardins Tragedy of the Commons was just played out, in the US, on the financial markets.
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Are you smoking crack? The North Koreans are taxed to DEATH. Literally to DEATH. The State is so large, so much a part of GDP - it IS the GDP. It's gotten so bad that North Koreans eat "special meat". You want to know what that is? It's small children sold off to be butchered and eaten.

    Maybe you don't know what a tax IS? Example: Why the Federal Reserve creates more money, causing inflation, that inflation is a TAX. It's a tax on savers. The people who do the right thing and save the Capital needed for investment have it taken from them through this TAX on their personal savings. So, I'd stop and think again about what you mean when you say tax. Secondly, North Koreans don't even own their own internal organs. I imagine it'll only take you a few more steps and you'll be taking the farmers kidney yourself. How dare he keep TWO kidney's the greedy someabitch.

    You want to tax the winners to pay for the 'set up'? Who the hell do you think creates it in the first place? What? Like cables? Satellites? Rail-lines? Who do you think build the malls people shop in? Isn't that 'set up'? Who builds the shops? The GOVERNMENT? What, there's some ACME Government shop building division? NO. The "Government" builds nothing. AND it most certainly does NOT tax those that are the most well to do. Most of it's money come from the middle class (soon to be poor). Most of the Federal Government's budget is off the backs off the working poor or just working to stay afloat. Why on the Gods Green Earth would anyone with an ounce of sanity want to take from the working class?!?

    When the "Government" does pay for something it's over budget and half arsed.

    I can tell you WHO wouldn't be starting WARS in the Middle East. Businessmen and women. Because they make money by trading. Not so Government. Government earns its money by force. Militarism is only a natural extension. And it's so inept at that it has to pay $150K+ mercenaries when it actually wants something done.

    You're worried about the Commons? Do you know the US Government is the biggest polluter on the entire Planet Earth? In a free market you can sue if your property is spoiled. Not so the Government. They can write a regulation and suddenly pollution is perfectly fine and dandy.

    As for the financial markets - The Government forces us to use USD thereby artificially rising its value and then it regulates all other forms of natural currency, such as gold and silver. That used to be illegal. Not so anymore. In a true free market there'd be enough variety of currency that no one institution would be Too Big To Fail because people would simply use difference currency. As it is, thanks to BushBama the Big 5 are even BIGGER than before TBTF. You can thank Government for the three generations of lost prosperity, NOT the free market, it hasn't existed in a hundred years.


    And that's the thing, we haven't had small government since the late 1800s. A time when Americans became the most prosperous nation on earth. It wasn't long after the creation of the Federal Reserve that we saw the greatest Depression up until the present. That was not the FREE market. It was the Government. The FREE market didn't start WWII, that was the State. The FREE market didn't invade Korea, start a War in Vietnam. It isn't the FREE market drone killing children.... oh, I mean collateral damage. It's the STATE that has and is doing these things. Why you love it, only you will know. I'd suggest as a start, thinking about who bought you off, and how much it cost. How many Bonds have been sold, and will be paid back by the unborn, to give you what it is you have? Because if you didn't trade for it, and if you didn't build it or save it, then you took it. Something to think about.
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,910
    You are long on allegations and your evidence is nonexistent. The Federal Reserve is not paying anyone but its employees and it pays those employees with the money it earns. So as usual Michael you are taking liberties with the truth again.

    And you think replacing a democratically elected government with a dictatorship of the wealthiest most powerful individuals is better; do you not see why most people don’t think that is a step up? The biggest problem people have with your positions Michael is that we have been there, and done it that many times and it has not worked. Democracy with all its flaws is trumps dictatorship and thuggery time and time again.

    That is a problem your political philosophy shares with Communism. Just as there is no utopian Communist state, there is no utopian Libertarian state and for the same reasons. There is no utopian state in which people will just magically behave. People are people and will exhibit all the strengths and weaknesses associated with that state of being wither they are in or out of government. There is nothing magical about government that always makes it evil. And equally, there is nothing magical about private enterprise that always makes it good and virtuous.

    As long as humans are social beings, there will never be a stateless society. There will always be a need to define common rules of behavior and enforce those rules. Now the question is do we want a state controlled entirely by a few, the wealthiest and most powerful or a state with a more distributed powerbase? I prefer the latter. A weak central government doesn’t eliminate power or the abuses of power. In fact history shows us, it does the exact opposite. A weak central government leaves powerful individuals free to force their will on others using their private resources (e.g. Johnson County Range War, the use of Pinkerton to suppress unions and enforce corporate will on citizens, Shanghaiing, etc.). The US tried a weak central government with the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union. The confederation didn’t work and our founding fathers found it necessary to replace it with the Constitution and a stronger central government.

    No it isn’t. This is you taking liberties with the truth yet again Michael.

    No nothing could be further from the truth Michael. No one is sanctioning state violence. What you are arguing for is giving power to the select few; letting them do whatever they want whenever they want, pollute the air, land and water to their content, make the central government so weak that the it can no longer protect individuals from its wealthiest and most powerful citizens, go back to the days of sweat shops and child labor, go back to the days of racial discrimination. That is the state you are arguing for Michael.

    Using your definitions, every time the president wakes up in the morning it amounts to state sanctioned violence. And no one thinks free markets, capital, and peaceful interaction are scary. That is more of the misinformation and demagoguery you are known for Michael. And unfortunately for you regulated markets and fiat currency works, they work better than the chaotic markets and the commodity backed currencies they replaced. It’s called evolution and survival of the fittest Michael. There isn’t a single commodity backed currency in the world today, because “fiat” currencies work much better. As has been proven to you umpteen times, since the introduction of Keynesian economic policies, our economies are much less chaotic. Depressions have been virtually eliminated, periods of recession have been less severe and less frequent and inflation has been much less severe. Those are the unpleasant facts for you and people like you Michael.

    You are right in this sense, your positions just don't make sense and that has been a big obstacle for people of your political persuasion. That is why Libertarianism has never been more than a fringe political movement.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    We all know you LOVE and are so PROUD of the Central Bankers and think they have "Saved Us" - you've made that quite clear. Yes, if we hadn't bailed out the uber-rich, well, us poor little peons would be living in a Dark Age. The earth would have opened up and swallowed the roads, houses, power-stations, cars, factories, hell it would have stopped spinning. Yup, you made it very very VERY clear that in your mind, the CENTRAL BANKERS are the keepers of the Realm and Defenders of the Faith and ONLY they, and they alone, could have saved us... from, themselves.

    Nice logic there Joe.

    Oh, but lets be clear on who the Central Bankers are looking out for, regardless of who us little Peons vote into CONgress. You see, the Federal Reserve has the power to dump GENERATIONAL amounts of debt onto the middle class laborer, his children, his grandchildren and use that debt to bail out not only US Banks, but so too foreign banks, foreign nations... Oh, and of course those "Corporations" you're so worried about. Yes, they got bailed out too.

    Here's lets just go to the audit of the Federal Reserve itself: GOA

    Summary here:
    It's quite clear to see who's interest the Federal Reserve has at heart.

    Some people think that the Federal Reserve Banks are United States Government institutions. They are private monopolies which prey upon the people of these United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers; foreign and domestic speculators and swindlers; and rich and predatory money lenders.”
    – The Honorable Louis McFadden, U.S. House of Representative from Pennsylvania and Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee (1934)


    No Joe, I specifically said no RULERS. Simple enough? Is that clear to you?

    Let's review Kant AGAIN:

    A. Law and freedom without force (anarchy).
    B. Law and force without freedom (despotism).
    C. Force without freedom and law (barbarism).
    D. Force with freedom and law (republic).

    See how these forms of Civil Organization are different? Any of this pushing past those 12 years of State-Run Government-Schooling?

    So, lets be clear, anarchy does not HAVE a dictator. That would be referred to as Despotism. See the difference? A good question is why are you trying to paint freedom and law without force as law without freedom and with force? These are two completely different forms of Civil Society Joe. This fear-mongering that Americans must worry about being FREE (yeah, that's really scary isn't it) .....and should therefor submit to the State Violence because (according to your logic, which there isn't any) if we were FREE we'd suddenly become the slaves of a "Dictator". As if magically overnight FREE people become enslaved to a Dictator.

    Nope.... That's called Propaganda.

    Over here in the REAL WORLD the GOVERNMENT is actually the one doing the drone bombing and murdering REAL American Children Joe. Got that? Not in some fantasy land of what might happen if....but right now, in the here and now. In this world. Our lovely State is jailing upwards of 80% of real live African American men for non-violently carrying some plant leaves in their pockets for their own personal use. Right here, in the actual REAL WORLD - our Government uses force against the Citizens to take upwards (in same cases) of up to 50%+ of their labor - - and all while BAILING OUT THE RICHEST AMERICANS and shoveling Generational Debt .......onto us, our children, our grandchildren and their children's children's shoulders.

    So Joe, unlike your this Dictatorship that suddenly just pops into existence when people are FREE from State Violence, this shit is REALLY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW and being done to us BY a real live State Violence. And worse still, you seem to think that Might Makes Right. That because North was able to murder enough women and children in the South, and force the South to accept being in a forced Union, that this is somehow moral, and just and right and best of all possible worlds.

    That's simply not true.

    It's a good thing you weren't around to argue for or against abolition because it's quite clear which side of the fence you'd fall on: There never has and never will be a Slaveless society so lets just accept Slavery. See the problem with your logic? Where the fault in your assumption lies. Just because you can't imagine a Stateless free, peaceful society, does not mean that one can't exist. Further, there is no connection with being social and having a State. Humans (and earlier social hominids) existed for millions of years BEFORE there was a State. Being 'Social' is part of our genetic code. AND guess what, it MUST predate a State. Civilization (free-trade, property, law) that all comes BEFORE the State Joe. The State (or to be more specific, a group of non-productive humans) act parasitical ON the already existent Civilization. Which is why we see that as the State grows large, Civilization collapses.


    So, you can now see you are clearly wrong as we lived on this planet as social primates, one of the great Apes, WITHOUT a State.

    One more time: Anarchy means NO RULERS. It does NOT mean no RULES. Note the 'R" in the first sentence?

    Secondly, Libertarian ideology isn't even about being Anarchic. It's, like you want, about being a Republic. All that Libertarians want is to SHRINK the size of the one institution, the one group of humans who can use force against us legally - The State. WHY is that so scary to you? To put it another way, reducing the VIOLENCE in society. Shrinking the cancer. Pretty much the Exact Opposite of what Progressive Socialists like you, Obama, and Kim Jung Il would like to see for society. You'll notice that as cancer get smaller, people get healthier. As the State shrinks from 100% Communist Progressive/Cancer "Social-Paradise" where people are so poor they're eating one another (North Korea) down even a little, to a smaller size (Ex: China) that society *gasp* (just like shrinking any other parasitic cancer) society becomes a little bit healthier. Just imagine a world where there was no parasitical cancer. How healthy would life be there?

    And, here you go again. Anarchy means NO RULERS. It does not mean NO RULES.

    Example: When you walk into a Privately Owned Mall. If you should break the rules (like run around with your shirt and pants off shitting and pissing on the floor) the Private Mall Security escort you to the door and out you go. See how it works? There ARE rules. Just no rulers. You are FREE not to go to the mall. You are FREE to go somewhere else. You are FREE to try and create your own mall where shitting on the floor is the norm. It's called the free-market Joe. Try it. What you SHOULD NOT be free to do is to use the force of the vote, to make everyone else live their lives with you shitting and pissing on their floors. It doesn't matter if you've convinced 51% of everyone else that this is a great thing. The other 49% of us do NOT want it.

    No, that's YOUR question. It's based on an unsound illogical assertion. As is now clear to you. Maybe a better question is how to you come to adore State-violence so much? Did it have anything to do with the 12 years of State-Run, Government-Regulated Public School-Farms the pump out hundreds of thousands of little State-bots year in and year out? Many of whom can't even read. So, from this POV the question thus becomes: How many generations of children (from the time of Joe) will we have to raise with love and logic, before reaching for the Violence of the State is NOT seen as the "solution" (but seen as repugnant) and instead win-win free trading with Law and Private Property rights take center stage?

    *News Flash*
    With the help of the State, and your beloved Central Bank, the wealthiest ARE BECOMING MORE POWERFUL AND MORE WEALTHY. Right now, under Obama, we have BIGGER than To Big To Fail Banks. Do you understand this!?!?!? Any of this making it past the half century of State propaganda?

    You seem to think that the State is this magical place where no Greedy Power-Hungry Citizen would ever be attracted to. When exactly the OPPOSITE IS TRUE. The State is the ONE organization in society where we LEGALLY allow humans to Initiate force against other Citizens. The Government is a Sociopaths wet-dream. Which is why so many of them are so eager to join up. And is WHY we need to keep it as small as is possible.

    Exactly the opposite of what you "Social Progressives" desire. Ever think that maybe YOU are the sociopath? I mean, you made it clear that "Lincoln settled the question". The murder and shooting other humans "settles questions". That's the way Sociopaths think Joe. You made it clear you want more Government Violence. You want it much BIGGER. Grow the Cancer! We see it time and time again how Progressives, like any other Sociopath, use the levers of State Violence to coerce those around them. This is a sickness Joe. Using FORCE is sick in the head Joe. Do you understand that?! I think not. I find Progressives are the WORSE. We have people right here arguing the Farmer is the one taking! The FARMER!?! You "Progressives" are the one holding the GUN in the face of the Laborer and stealing their money and yet time and time again you say "It's owed to you". What next? You want his daughters too? Maybe his kidney? YOU are the ones that decided no one should own Private Property any longer, no, we can instead RENT it from the State - for the rest of our lives. And if we dare make it nicer, we can pay more for it. And the best argument you'll hear is this: You use the roads! At the end of the day this is your pitiful argument for why State Violence is just. How pathetic.

    It's called insanity Joe. You like to hide behind Nationalism. Patriotism. Maybe even Religion. But, at the end of the day: Violence is Violence.


    Tell that to the North Koreans. Joe, you literally live in la la land. We HAD a small central government and no central bank for most of the first half of American history. That includes us, up in the North. That did not practice STATE sanctioned Human Slavery. WE were the ones who ushered in the American Industrial Revolution. Do you UNDERSTAND ANY OF US HISTORY? This was the most prosperous period in US HISTORY!

    No, those are instances in history Joe. They are events. You are cherry picking a few, reinterpreting them, and then confabulating a story in your head that matches with your preconceived notion that a powerful Central Government is good. Did you miss the fact that hundreds of MILLIONS of humans have been murdered by Central Governments over the course of the 20th century? The tens of millions of Chinese murdered? The tens of millions of Russians murdered. All by powerful Central Governments. That the USA is occupying and murdering people right now, as we breath?

    You think it was right that Lincoln murdered upwards to 800,000 Americans? You think that this is a GOOD thing?

    That's sick Joe. Sick in the head. All you are saying is: Might Makes Right. At the end of the Day, THAT is your argument.

    Are you trying to say the US Military isn't murdering children Joe? How about when they fire bomb cities filled with women and children? How about when Obama orders drone strikes on groups of men, killing any women and children right along with them. Oh yeah, I forgot, those are just "collateral damage" for you Progressive Welfare Queens and your Warfare Chickenhawk mates.

    One more time Joe, see if it sticks, no RULERS. NOT no RULES.

    Just because you can't envision a world without State Violence to enforce the Law doesn't mean it can't or even doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, there's no World Government and yet people do business all the time. Because guess what Joe? Unlike in your paranoid world, in the real world, most people WANT to develop good business relations and maintain a good social status to continue doing business. Secondly, there'd still be courts. Thirdly, even if you can't get your mind wrapped around Anarchy, that's fine, we'll rack that up to a damaged childhood and 12 years of State propaganda. But the FACT is we had a small government and rule of law when the Federal Government was less than 5% GDP. It's now blowing out to over 20% and soon to be 25% GDP. AND we both know Government's don't shrink, they grow - just like any other cancer.

    Lastly, issues can and should be handled locally. As it is, the rich BUY OFF politicians who insert exception after exception so that they CAN exploit and pollute the so-called 'Commons'.

    If it were really a competition, then the State wouldn't need to shove a gun in the face of American Citizens Joe.
    Joe, life is getting worse. Do you understand this? I don't think you do. It was normal for a family of five to survive in middle class on a single income. Now, even though we've seen massive gains in productivity, a family of three MIGHT make it into the middle class if BOTH parents work full time.

    Explain this to us Joe.
     
  22. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    how about you try referencing your quotes michael
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    The GOA document is posted in a link, turn to page 131 and you will find a list of the crooks bailed out.

    Noticed more BJ Morgan and GoldmanSux 'Expert Economists' telling Australians what to think on the 'TV/News/Idiot-box'? See, that's how it starts. Don't worry - the financialization of Australian politicians has only just begun. Welcome to democracy in the Land of the socialist. You're going to get all the FREE roads you could have wished for, at a price.



    IN regards to the thread, a lot of Australians have never lived in the USA. They would probably be shocked to learn that recorded violent crime is about double in Australia as compared to the USA (Canberra: Australian Institute of Criminology). Violent crime against females is particularly high in Australia, and rape is a real worry for many female Australian children.

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    And it should be noted, as a multicultureal country, AU isn't that long in the game. While I fully embrace multiculturalism in the USA and any of the 'colonized' nations as anything other is demented. There are problems that come with disparage culture. These are only just now starting to come to the surface in Western Sydney.

    The USA has concentrated pockets of violence in inner city USA. Most violence occurs in the African American community (so-called Black on Black crime) and is mostly men attacking other young men. While young black men make up a small percentage of the population (<15%) even in total numbers they are overwhelmingly involved in most violent crime. And again, mainly against other black men. I personally point the finger directly at Federal Government policies that have all but destroyed the Black community. Beginning with unfair minimum wage laws that cut black workers off at the knees (and were passed by White Racist Southern Democrat Unionists) and continuing to add insult to injury with Welfare that punishes marriage and taxes even minimum work so that there is NO incentive to work. Add to this horrid display came drug laws and you can see this community has been utterly decimated.

    The Stats can be found here: http://projects.wsj.com/murderdata/?mg=inert-wsj#view=all




    While the media likes to fixate on single sociopaths who stole their mother's legal guns and murdered innocent children and their forcibly-unarmed defenseless teachers, the real problem in America is the violent inner cities. Something you will not hear Obama or other politicians talk about. Because frankly, they don't give a damn. Time to build the Presidents' Library and make big money on the speech circuit.
     

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