Boarder Security

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by R1D2, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Boarder security is always difficult.
    That said how would you help secure a boarder?
     
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    first question would be why in this international world do we need to "secure our boarders"?
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I have a couple of boarders living with me and they feel secure.
     
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  7. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    You know what I mean F.R. Good evening to you.

    Ideas on securing a country's boarders?

    And asgaurd,
    It would help slow down drugs, illegal weapons, terrorists, and such.
     
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Does it though?

    Terrorists are just as likely to be domestic as international and even for international coordination why do you think the mastermind even needs to step foot on the shores of the country? With the Internet you can run almost anything internationally

    Drugs? well hows that going for you?

    Illegal weapons? Considering the number of "legal" guns why do you even care? why would someone wanting a weapon go internationally when they could just steal one inside the US

    So what is "border security" actually doing for you?
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  9. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    I believe that Canada and the U.S.A. share one of, if not the, longest undefended borders on the planet.

    A 'boarder' on the other hand, is a lodger in my part of the world.

    As for how to secure such a border, I would think the day is coming when technology would allow us to establish electronic monitoring by means of a continuous beam of light that would transmit s signal to a data center if it is crossed. Purely a hypothetical idea on my part.
     
  10. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, it's truly the longest "open" border in the whole world, especially when you add on the one between Canada and the largest state in the U.S. - Alaska.

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    Edit to add: And yeah, a "boarder" is a lodger way down here in the Southeast U.S. also.

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    (It's a shame people cannot spell some very simple words.)
     
  11. Balerion Banned Banned

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    First, it's BORDERS, not boarders. Secondly, why are you so sure it would slow down any of those things?
     
  12. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    I think that the US attempt to use prohibition and interdiction to "control" the flow of drugs for the last 80+ years illustrates the futility of that technique. The US desperately needs those immigrants to work jobs that US workers are unwilling to work and to pay the taxes an aging population is less and less able to pay to take care of themselves. Agreed on the terrorists and the guns as well. The whole idea is a waste of time and money, though the border guards at the US/Canada border have a lot of fun playing tough with us tourists.

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    'Course this from my perspective of living near the border. When I was young I dated Canadian girls and hung out in Canadian clubs. Going across the border was like driving across town - no big deal. Now it really sucks and takes a long time to get across.

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    NOTE: Being a member of the Internet Spelling Police is....revealing at the very least. To wit: it says more about you than it does about the other person whom you are 'correcting'. The word "futile" comes to mind.

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  13. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    The political people think securing our "borders" helps a great deal with slowing down drugs, illegal weapons. And it would slow down terrorist activity.
    I think "border" security would help in those areas. It would also help in slowing down illegal crossing of people. Heard one time a kidnapped woman was smuggled to mexico. Then sold back to her family, human smuggling is a bad thing with open "borders". It is difficult like I mentioned earlier to fully secure a "border". There are towns right on the boundary.


    One idea. Is start letting "border agents" taze runners. They run they get tazed. Maybe then they won't run.

    Build a primary fence then build a secondary control fence.
     
  14. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    You still haven't shown why its even necessary, sure Pollies fear monger about the "threat" of illegals but in reality its all just xenophobia.

    How about you show evidence that human smuggling occurs where there is an open border, you could get studies from Europe where there ARE no borders anymore or maybe the US\Canadian border which is mostly fenced to keep the sheep in the right paddock
     
  15. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks Stoniphi, liked your post.
    My mom has been to Canada a long time ago. I think If I recall she said she used her driver license to cross. Now they want a passport. Can't say I been. Though I would have liked too.
    Anyone care to share what troubles it takes getting in and out of Canada, or Mexico?
     
  16. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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  17. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    In accounting there is a term that describes the problem "the point of diminishing marginal returns".

    You build a fence and they rip a hole in it so you build a stronger (more expensive) fence and they drive over it so you build a higher (more expensive) fence and they dig under it so you build a second and third fence and an underground barrier (for the same amount it would cost to feed a thousand people every day for a year) and they drive down the road a few miles to where you haven't put up your fence and they drive around it there. The you extend your very expensive fence, hire more border guards, send in the National Guard for backup and buy a bunch of drones so we can all watch high speed chases replete with tazers, guns, dogs and a bunch of pissed - off people. Then the national debt goes up even more to try and pay for this new expensive non - functional fence that simply does not address the problem.

    Look - the US needs those people to work here. Without them our expensive crops rot on the vine because we will not work that hard for such low salary. This is not conjecture it is cold hard fact. We reached ZPG in the 1970's but we still need more tax revenue to support our aging population (social security and medicare) I deeply appreciate the racist outlook that many persons carry that is very well reflected in the US government. I am very clear that the presidents skin colour is a problem for many US citizens as is the skin colour of most immigrants. It is time to get past that crap though. We cannot afford to build such a thing, it is a budget buster and it simply won't work. How do I know that? It is already there and it doesn't work. It has not worked in the past. Occam's Razor says it will not work in the future either. Those folks are coming here because we are offering them lots of money to come here to work the jobs that we will not work. You don't want them to come here, you have to take away their motivation. Good luck with that as there are whole lot of people here that desperately want them to come here and do that work for us.

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    The science says that for every smugglers tunnel you find there are 10 that you do not find. (from Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed and What We Can Do About It, by Gray) As the US has pissed away all of that money to build more fence the smugglers have developed a fleet of submarines to do the job instead. "end run" Prohibition is the US governments futile attempt to repeal the law of supply and demand. It has not worked for more than 80 years, it is not working now and there is absolutely no factual reason to expect it to work in the future. The fence is one of the faces of Prohibition and is foredoomed to fail as such. Complete and total waste of more money - even more so between Canada and the US. We simply cannot afford such a thing.

    It is high time to discuss some real world alternatives.
     
  18. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Here is some drugs smuggled in and information. And think of the $ money going back as well.
    . -from. http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/prg/le/bs/uscabdta-eng.aspx

    I would rather not see this coming in and I would rather it not getting to first time users.
     
  19. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    That doesn't show WHY its necessary, only what happens when you do it. Its like using the fact that so many are dying because of the "war on drugs" to "prove" that the policy was right. To continue that example look at what harm minimisation does and you see that its so much more effective.

    Instead of using the deaths to "prove" you need to send in the army at massive cost to life and budget, start by proving that the policy is needed and THEN argue about what is needed to get those objectives.

    So to go back, why do you need to "lock down" the border?
     
  20. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

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    Asguard,
    Did you miss post 15? Or the part earlier that said america is at risk? One member here seems to have gotten it. And, We need new ways. Stuff that will work. What we have done has not done the job. I simply wish to listen to some ideas that may work better.
    Some new border tactics might do the trick. Those in political office think they have the right ideas, I don't think so.
     
  21. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    One way is to have effective laws that procecute those employing any illegal alien who works for them by having the government keep track of who is working for companies. Another is to not allow children into public schools without proper identification and certification. One more would be no medial help to anyone without proper identification.

    You can't protect the entire borders of a country whose coastline is over 5000 miles long, as is Americas.
     
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Good question. After centuries of hostility, the European nations have opened their borders and it's working fine. Their biggest "problem" is Gypsies (Rom) because virtually all Europeans despise Gypsies. But the Gypsies had already been there for centuries. All the wealthy nations hope to do is confine them to the poorer nations like Hungary and Romania.

    The USA and Mexico, on the other hand, have one of the most cordial relationships of any two adjacent nations on earth. We are each other's biggest tourist destination, each other's largest immigrant population, one of each other's largest trading partners, and the Mexican people have always stood up for us in times of trouble, forming queues two blocks long around our consulates of people wanting to enlist in the U.S. Army after both Pearl Harbor and 9/11. We haven't been as kind to them, supporting an elitist government for more than a century while exploiting their labor and other resources for our own corporate profits and keeping their people dirt-poor and uneducated... yet they have never forgotten our help in overthrowing the French occupation of the country in the 1860s and they still love us unconditionally.

    Trying to "secure" the Mexican border is both quixotic and ridiculous. The days of mojados ("wetbacks") swimming across the Rio Grande in the dark to illegally immigrate are long over, since Mexico is now a middle-class country and more people are moving back than coming here. To build a barbed-wire fence with machine gun turrets, reminiscent of the Iron Curtain, would be a sign to the entire world that we shoot people who love us! What the hell kind of image is that, for a civilized country to create? The Commies were at least shooting people who HATED them and were trying to run away!

    But moreover, the USA has two incredibly long coastlines! It may be practical to defend a coastline against a military assault (or not--I think it's still possible to deliver a chemical weapon or a small "dirty bomb" to one of our commercial seaports on a cargo ship and bribe a few people to make sure it's not intercepted), but against tiny boats carrying Guatemalan refugees, or high-tech miniature submarines carrying bags of cocaine? How much of our shrinking GDP are we willing to piss away on this?

    I don't have any children but some of you who do have done a rotten job of raising them. They're too lazy to get a good education (what moron decided that children should be able to decide to "skip school" and not be punished? They won't be able to do that when they're working!) so they can't get good jobs (and even if they could, they haven't been trained to put in full five-day weeks for months on end!), yet they're unwilling to take the jobs that uneducated people traditionally settle for. Hanging drywall, packing chickens... there are quite a few jobs in this country that are almost exclusively performed by immigrants. When the Redneck states recently began cracking down on undocumented immigrant labor, they ended up with thousands of unfinished houses and warehouses full of rotten chicken.

    The fertility rate of the native-born population of this country has already dropped below replacement level (2.1 children per woman). The only thing that's propping up the Ponzi Scheme we call "Social Security" is immigration. The same is true of almost all of the Western nations. Ultra-xenophobic Japan doesn't admit a lot of immigrants and they make it almost impossible to become naturalized citizens, so their economy is in deep shit with their rapidly aging population.

    Living in the Southwest most of my life, I've only been to Canada a few times, but yes it was fast and easy. The Mexican border was not much more difficult, although it was congested because of the volume of traffic between San Diego and Tijuana (both large cities) or El Paso and Juarez (ditto). I remember that going from Nogales, Arizona, to Nogales, Sonora, the car never even came to a complete stop. Coming back, our guys just asked how much liquor we had bought because there was a limit, I think it was one quart per person.

    Getting into Mexico is slower but bearable. Getting out is a nightmare.

    This is a website for discussing and learning science. The vast majority of the people who come here are highly intelligent and well-educated. Someone who can't bother to learn how to spell the word "border," which is in the headlines of half the newspapers in the country every day, comes across as a person who doesn't care what kind of impression he makes. People like that are going to go through life being the butt of jokes. That's the way society deals with them: Put a little energy into their spelling or be laughed at, their choice. They're still welcome and we'll still answer their questions, but we will still laugh at them until they get tired of it. It's not like having a twitch or a birthmark, something you can't fix.

    How many times do you encounter the word "boarder," anyway? How would someone pick it up by accident, and then think it's common? We seldom use it anymore in the USA. They're "tenants," "roommates" or "housemates." That's a rather amazing error and we are simply going to laugh about it because it's also an amusing error. "Boarder security" makes a really good joke and Americans love to laugh!

    There are civil engineers in the USA who avoid driving over our country's bridges because they are all many years beyond their projected safe lifespan. One even fell down recently! Before we start wasting money on constructing fences, let's fix our own infrastructure. Our highway, bridge, levee, port, rail, air, and energy systems are primitive and routinely fail from stress. We spend the same amount of money on infrastructure as we did fifty years ago. Chinese supersize transport ships have to dock in Canadian ports because ours can't handle them. Road traffic is gridlocked coming out of our port cities. Last year the electricity for millions of people in a gigantic area around Washington DC (the nation's capital!) was out for several days just because of a really strong wind! New Orleans was flooded because its levees were out of date. New York and New Jersey are still recovering from flooding, weeks later.

    This is NOT the time to spend billions of dollars on a motherfucking fence, just to keep the racist Rednecks happy!

    The reason Americans import drugs is that our shit-for-brains government has made it very difficult for them to buy these drugs from Americans. In the 1960s, an ounce of marijuana cost $10 (about $60 in today's money) because it was grown in the USA--and the money stayed in the American economy. The dealers even paid income tax because the IRS didn't care where the money came from, they just wanted their cut. Today we have to import it from Mexico so it costs six hundred dollars--and the money goes to drug cartels.

    If there's one thing the American people should have learned from our own history, it's that the second-order effects of drug prohibition cause far more harm than the drugs themselves. My parents lived during the era of (alcohol) Prohibition: 1920-1933. (They were born in 1910 and 1911.) This is what they saw:
    • You cannot stop people from buying something they really want.
    • If they can't buy it from respectable businessmen, criminals will spring up to take over the business.
    • Crime is a dangerous business so criminals charge more for their products than respectable businessmen.
    • They bribe police, district attorneys, and officials all the way up the ladder, causing our entire government to become corrupt. It was commonly put this way: "We made the WCTU happy (the Women's Christian Temperance Union, the spearhead for Prohibition) by passing a law against liquor. And then we made everybody else happy by not enforcing it."
    • Criminals have no conscience so they don't worry about the purity of safety or their products. Much "bootleg" liquor was contaminated with wood alcohol, which caused blindness and even death.
    • Criminals can't take their disputes and complaints to the court system, so they have to resolve them their own way. This results in gunfights in the streets, and innocent people are killed. In the 1920s it happened in Chicago, where my parents lived. Today it's the entire country of Mexico--30,000 Mexicans have been killed in drug cartel violence. That's okay, because Americans don't give a damn about dead Mexicans. (See my comment above about the odd way we treat Mexicans, even though they love us dearly.)
    • Children are recruited as runners by the criminals, because they're harder for the police to capture and they're not usually punished as harshly.
    • Children see gangsters with fancy clothes and big cars, while their hard-working parents are barely making a living. This makes them want to go into the crime business instead of going to school.
    • Americans are not a people who respect authority. Our country was founded by rebels who didn't want to be subject to the laws of a king. So when something becomes illegal, it acquires a cachet of being naughty or "cool." Children become attracted to it. My mother said the worst thing about Prohibition was that women started going to taverns for the first time ever.
    • In addition, outlawing a product that so many people want further erodes what little respect we have for authority already. In the last poll only a tiny fraction of the American people approved of the job our government is doing.
    • Because criminals charge higher prices for their drugs than shopkeepers, using the drugs becomes an expensive habit. This was not such a big problem with alcohol, but it's a tremendous problem with today's drugs. My grandfather sold Heroin (a Bayer trademark: it makes you feel like a hero) and cocaine in his drug store. The drugs were cheap and nobody had to commit crimes to support their habit.
    • This is another point that is more relevant to our era than Prohibition: Drug-testing. The most popular drug in America is marijuana, and because of the chemistry, traces of are still visible in your urine a month later. If you snort cocaine or even shoot heroin on Friday night, and your boss demands that you take a drug test on Monday morning, you'll be clean. But marijuana will still be there for weeks. This has motivated many people to give up marijuana, one of the least dangerous drugs on earth, and go out searching for new drugs like methamphetamine. It won't show up in their urine Monday morning, but it will make the rest of their weekend miserable, and it is far more addictive. People are even just getting drunk instead of smoking pot, and studies in Montana after medical marijuana was legalized there indicate that stoned drivers are far safer than drunk drivers--something all of us old hippies already knew.
    This is a classic example of the Law of Unintended Consequences, which is usually stated, "You can never do just one thing." By making drugs illegal, you cause more problems, and worse problems, than you started with.

    I too would rather not see heroin, meth and all the other "designer drugs" become so prevalent. The answer is to just let Americans have their damn marijuana. It's (arguably) safer than every other recreational drug on the planet. Certainly less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Didn't help stop 9/11 - and nothing you can do at our borders would do much to stop such an event in the future.

    It would be easier to not make such crossings illegal. Anyone who wants to come here should be able to. Biometric scan at the border, and if you're not a criminal on the watch list - you get in (or out.)

    I heard about 100 times a kidnapped child was taken to another state within the US.

    Half a trillion dollars for just two fences? Doesn't seem worth it.
     

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