Boarder Security

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by R1D2, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,862

    Most crops are picked by temporary workers who are granted visas to come into America to do just that. So the illegals take away legal immigrants jobs, isn't that nice of them, so they can work under the table for less for those employers who again do not report the illegals.


    So now you want to rewrite all laws, so that thievs who steal your car, take your possessions, embezzle, take advantage of others like with a ponzi scheme and a whole list of other "non violent" crimes are not prosecuted for their criminal activities. I really do not think many people would like that to happen including me. If laws were changed to let criminals do as they please then I think there would be a very bad backlash at those criminals by people who do not like being robbed or other criminal things happening to them that are "non violent".

    But income taxes, which I was talking about if you didn't read what I wrote, are not deducted which means the illegals are committing a tax evasion crime.

    Well, since we do not know , out of 12 to 15 million illegal immigrants are doing this, we won't know if that is a large amount of them or just a small amount will we. Illegals use false names as well so how is it they can pay taxes without breaking another law of false ID's? Just another criminal activity you want to overlook.


    You won't mind showing me where you get that from? If illegals do not fill out the census, and many of them do not for they fear that they will be found out about and deported,how can any school system know how many children are legal and how many are not. So then the school system can never know who is sending their children to school illegally which as I said puts many of the regular children out of the school.


    People leave their own countries behind along with their families most of the time, that's abandoning part of their family and leave their country country which they should stay and find ways to change their governments instead of runing away from their problems like cowards. Those who won't stand and try to make where they live better aren't the kind of people I think I'd admiire as much as you seem to.

    People who enter another country illegally are criminals for they know they should follow the law and apply for legal immigration like others do who follow the law and wait their turns. So they are jumping over others who try to become legal immigrants, and you think that's a good thing, again I really do not think that is a very honest thing for them to do.

    Illegals should be deported and let the honest, law abiding immigrants who sign up for legal immigration but alas you seem to think the flood gates should open and let anyone come here to put more of a burden on the American government.

    I'm sorry that you seem to only want to look at illegal immigration as somerthing that helpful while the facts show differently about them. This influx of criminals , because they broke the law by coming to America illegally, doesn't bode well with millions of other American citizens and this new reform isn't going to be tolerated by many either.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Crackdowns on illegal immigrants result in farmers leaving most of their crops to rot in the fields. (I'll let you google the news stories on this.) So by going after illegals you're not just taking away their jobs, you are putting farmers out of business, closing farmer's stands etc. Why do you want to take away those jobs from Americans?

    They ARE deducted like anyone else's are - according to their salary and what they put on their W-4. There is no "check this box if you are illegal so we won't withhold any taxes" item on a W-4.

    Illegal aliens CAN legally pay taxes to the IRS without a false ID - and a great many do. Again, Google is your friend.

    How can we get them to all pay taxes? Make them legal.

    I "abandoned my family" in NY to go to school in Boston, then "abandoned" them again to work in San Diego. You'd hate people like me.

    But anyway - OK. So the illegal aliens with families here should stay and find ways to change the government rather than running away like cowards. Good; we agree there.

    And I am sorry that you cannot see illegal immigrants as anything but criminals. I know a few of them, and they are some of the hardest working people I know. People like them (anyone who wants to work here, really) should be able to do so legally.
     
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  5. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    To bad they can't follow the laws that America has then.

    I know some myself and they took away jobs from American citizens who need to work but cannot find jobs, I really do not think that is right but you seem to. If I would have reported them , as a good American citizen should o, I would not feel right so I don't as yet. But the more influx I see, the more I'm thinking to change my mind about the way I think because the illegals atre overwhhelming our systemand , as I said, taking away jobs fro people who live here already.

    If I were to try and work in their country, I would not be able to survive for their countries people would have removed me from working there the first time they saw me.
     
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  7. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    2,088
    Don't believe the US/Canadian border is undefended. I often go out there with my pitchfork and make sure none of those Americans can sneak into our country. Everyone has to do their part.

    @ OP
    I think large fences, motion detectors, tougher penalties, and video and infrared camera surveillance overlapping the entire border is all that can be done. I'd add increased border personnel, but that contravenes policies to hire people less when technology can work just fine.

    I'd even include a recorded voice and alarm broadcast exactly on the border saying, "Warning! You have been spotted on Camera, please return to your country Yankee Scum, and report yourself to officials.

    Of course we will welcome Draft Dodgers and Slaves.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,635
    I doubt you do. Ever exceeded the speed limit? Ever not come to a complete stop at a stop sign? Ever gotten a tip, a loan or a donation from someone and not reported it on your taxes?

    Let's take one example. Guy from New Zealand, started a small company building skydiving gear. Got caught, the company folded. He GAVE four jobs to Americans - and then those four jobs were taken away.
     
  9. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,321
    just a pitchfork? Glad to know.
    Some good ideas.
    I had heard something about how Canada accepted civil war awols. They didn't want hanged and Canada "saved there life". Do you know if this is true? And I heard during Vietnam "conflict" many escaped the draft to Canada is those the draft dodgers you talked about?

    ---
    Some olive leaves of peace Buddha12. I thought you would be accepting of open boarders.
     
  10. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,256
    Every once in a while I encounter someone with a close - held unshakable belief that is not fact - based. They generally tip their hand with premises that are unfalsifiable. I believe that this is one such instance.

    I cannot support irrational policies, especially those that would bankrupt the country. Gratefully, I participate in the process sufficiently to feel that my POV will be taken into consideration by the powers that be.

    I do work for folks in the US AND in other countries because I know how to do the work and they have no - one in their country that can/will do it.

    Right here in Detroit we have folks who got very comfortable pulling down $140,000/year for doing unskilled labour that pretty much anyone could do. They got those jobs because they had relatives that had similar jobs and got them in the shop. Then they got laid off and went on unemployment (that means they get money from the government because they are not working) There are jobs available here right now, those folks could take them, but those jobs do not pay as much as the ones they lost did so they do not apply for them. They just keep drawing unemployment until it runs out while complaining about how hard they have it all the while. Then they short - sell one of their homes for some cash and stick us taxpayers with the balance. IMHO, these folks are much more of a drain on our system than some agricultural worker.

    For your information: schools hold what are called "count days" when they actually count the number of children in the school to get proper funding. They count ALL of the children present and they DO NOT require proof of citizenship for a child to be counted.

    Fences, Police States, Big Brother government...those have all been tried and failed. Like Prohibition, they are an exercise in futility.

    Somebody needs to do their homework.

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  11. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    Wow.... Just Wow.

    http://www.freep.com/article/201208...ships-lurk-behind-the-unemployment-statistics

    sell one of their homes? Link please.

    Detroit community gardens (recent):
    http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/its-your-body/the-good-food-cure

    2 years ago:
    http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100811/OPINION03/8110347

    Adding:
    As far as short selling, what do you do when you havent the money to pay for it? And it was the bank bailout that taxpayers are funding, not the dumb sob who bought into the Lookie, real estate is a win! win!

    Not to be an a$$ but why exactly did you leave the fields and stop cotton chopping? Wanted a better wage? Saw it as a dead end?

    Now, lets follow through with making illegals (approx 11 million) card carrying and therefore qualified to apply for medicare (under obama care), welfare, and a host of other government services because their 'employer' doesnt offer health insurance or they fall under the federal poverty level, or its just not their fault these seasonal agri jobs are temp jobs. You think they are going to stay in the fields picking tomatoes? Nope.

    Now compare that to the government burden of the american citizens who have lost there jobs due to the recession (and the exporting of good paying jobs) and just how many two home families are going to qualify for all these services....

    The USA has, for nearly all of its existence as a country, had immigration policies. However, it has only discriminated (in favor of) one nationality (Reagans amnesty) which would not have passed without assurances that it was a one time deal and the promise of enforcement from that point forward. It wasnt a failing of joe-citizen, it was a failure of government to deliver once again.

    You cant get around the burden of illegal immigration by changing the rules for a minute. The burden will be shifted from illegal to legals. So what happens to those waiting in line for their chance to come here, when apps are then denied because the system is overwhelmed by those who broke the rules to begin with (again or still, take your pick).

    The only way to affect illegal immigration is to enforce the laws that exist. No more sanctuary.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  12. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,862
    If you do nothing then only more problems will and are occuring.

    By deporting illegals instead of letting them stay would be the best solution to those breaking the laws of America. I'm not talking about misdemenor laws but criminal offences like tax evasion, illegal immigration and false ID's. Those are very serious offences to me and by changing the laws just to keep those criminals here is a outrage to those legal aliens that waited and are waiting their turn at getting to come into America.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2013
  13. R1D2 many leagues under the sea. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,321
    Illegals would still be illegal to enter if everyone that made it were made legal. Just like drugs. If it enters it would be illegal. And we would still need boarder security. Look at weapons as an example.
     
  14. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,256
    If that is indeed your desire, I encourage and support your effort and wish you success in your endeavor.

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    My life experience is not available to you for editing, commentary on same is irrelevant. Make a note.

    Yeah, the corrupt wasteful banks got our money, and so did the greedy/gamblers who walked away from the houses they bought but knew they could not afford who stuck those banks with the tab. The government is corrupt and wasteful in spending our money. It does an excellent job of representing us, as we (some of us) are also corrupt and wasteful.

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  15. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Actually the majority of those people were very unsophisticated first-time buyers who were conned by the banks. A few months ago a bank officer (a woman, naturally, she has a conscience, and no I don't remember which bank it was anymore but I think it might have been Wells Fargo) gave a long interview in the Post explaining how her bank had directed her to go into Afro-American neighborhoods and convince the folks that they, too, could afford to be homeowners.

    These people may be unsophisticated but they're not stupid. Their first question was always, "How will I be able to afford the mortgage payments on my salary, after the five-year grace period expires and overnight they rise up to cover full amortization?"

    Duh?

    She was directed to tell them an inspiring story about what a great investment real estate is in the USA because historically its value has always grown faster than the rest of the economy. The worst that could possibly happen to them is that at that moment they would have a colossal amount of equity in their new home, so if worse came to worst they could just sell it at then-market price, pay off the balance on the mortgage, and have perhaps as much as $100,000 in profit to put in the bank.

    What she carefully failed to tell them is that this is nothing more than a Ponzi scheme, relying on an ever-growing population of new home buyers eager to transfer their cash to the old home buyers and keep the cycle going. She carefully failed to tell them that the price of one major commodity (housing) cannot possibly continue forever to inflate faster than the general economy, for the (unfortunately not obvious) reason that fewer and fewer people will be able to afford to buy it.

    Home prices were already just about at that drop-dead point. Although an astounding percentage of the U.S. population were homeowners, their actual equity in their homes was at a historic low. All that had to happen now was for these five-year grace periods to expire and for millions of new, unsophisticated, low-income homeowners with zero or even negative equity to all dump their houses on the market at once!

    The rest is, unfortunately, history.

    As I've mentioned before, when the subprime bubble burst I was working on a contract for the Controller of the Currency: a presidential employee who oversees the nation's bank examiners. He has only one responsibility: to make sure the banks follow good business practices and remain profitable, because they're the cornerstone of our economy. He sent out a memo to all employees apologizing for not having done his job. In retrospect, it was obvious that a bank that writes mortgages for people who have no hope of repaying them is not following good business practices and is jeopardizing its profit margin. But he had not alerted his examiners to this phenomenon so they did not inspect the bank records from this point of view, to see if they had so many subprime loans that they could conceivably go bankrupt.

    As a result, most of the familiar names in the U.S. banking industry are defunct, and the government had to squander our tax money to keep the economy from completely crashing, rather than merely undergoing the disaster that actually happened.

    When you've digested that, we'll go onto the subject of the securitization of the U.S. economy, and the fact that today possibly a majority of the assets that comprise our national net worth are derivatives which "exist" only in cyberspace.

    Let me know when you wake up from fainting.

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  16. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    2,862
    And now they just roll out the new money which the Federal government is printing for themselves to borrow which has no real value. That means the economy is being flooded with money that has no worth, except for the government who thinks it is doing the right thing but is actually breaking the law by borrowing from itself that money they print with no value.

    Sooner or later we will have to stop kicking the can down the road and watch the inflation, at least or hard recession come to pass.
     
  17. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,862
    Yes but they also DRAIN the economies of where they live by not paying local taxes for living there. Illegals also use hospitals, schools and other government things as well which they contribute nothing into. They take their pay and send much of it back to their families wherever they actually immigrated from.
     
  18. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,522
    Hospitals and schools are typically paid for through property taxes. So whoever is renting a house or apartment to them is paying for it. Since this cost is typically passed on the the tennant via rent... They are paying for them.
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,635
    They do pay local taxes. They pay income tax, sales tax, property tax, social security tax etc. They put billions into the US government and local governments in the form of taxes.

    Other than taxes, fees and payments.

    And Americans who were born here go to Wal-Mart and thus send their pay to China.
     
  20. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,862

    WOW you really don't want to check the facts at all do you? Why do you make comments like this and expect anyone to believe you without providing and links to support your false claims?

    Read this then tell me what I said was wrong, at least I am providing you the facts not just opinions.

    • Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.


    • Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).


    • With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.


    • On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.


    • Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.


    • If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion.


    • Costs increase dramatically because unskilled immigrants with legal status -- what most illegal aliens would become -- can access government programs, but still tend to make very modest tax payments.


    • Although legalization would increase average tax payments by 77 percent, average costs would rise by 118 percent.


    • The fact that legal immigrants with few years of schooling are a large fiscal drain does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a net drain -- many legal immigrants are highly skilled.


    • The vast majority of illegals hold jobs. Thus the fiscal deficit they create for the federal government is not the result of an unwillingness to work.


    • The results of this study are consistent with a 1997 study by the National Research Council, which also found that immigrants' education level is a key determinant of their fiscal impact.
    A Complex Fiscal Picture
    Welfare use. Our findings show that many of the preconceived notions about the fiscal impact of illegal households turn out to be inaccurate. In terms of welfare use, receipt of cash assistance programs tends to be very low, while Medicaid use, though significant, is still less than for other households. Only use of food assistance programs is significantly higher than that of the rest of the population. Also, contrary to the perceptions that illegal aliens don't pay payroll taxes, we estimate that more than half of illegals work "on the books." On average, illegal households pay more than $4,200 a year in all forms of federal taxes. Unfortunately, they impose costs of $6,950 per household

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...loC4BQ&usg=AFQjCNEnSpRmblgY5wQQXmcujJEdy97chQ
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,635
    I don't expect any immigrant-bashers to believe me. They have their own set of beliefs and prejudices.

    OK:

    True. This is because most don't go to school for fear of getting caught. Which contradicts your claim that they are big drains on schools.

    So they use half the services and pay a quarter of the taxes. Again, funny how anti-immigrant groups never mention that they use HALF the federal assistance than your typical American uses.

    Ah, so the primary costs to these families are created by US citizens? Funny how that's overlooked by anti-immigrant groups.

    Also interesting. Hardly matches the picture of the lazy, lawless illegal alien so many people promote.

    An excellent summary. In other words, they are like a great many groups of American citizens - they pay taxes (although less than most Americans) get benefits (although they get far less than most Americans) and work for their money.

    And, as the author points out, the preconceptions of them being tax-dodging, lazy welfare queens is quite inaccurate.
     
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    What's the big deal? The vast majority of illegal immigrants are from Mexico, and net immigration from Mexico is now negative. Their economy has turned itself around in one generation so they're going home.

    The majority of Mexican immigrants today are middle- and upper-class people fleeing the drug war, OUR DRUG WAR, which we have cleverly offloaded to THEIR country. They drive across in their BMWs with all the proper documents, settle in the mansions of San Antonio, and run their businesses from there.

    Americans who worry about illegal immigration think this is still 1975. I wonder what other important issues they get completely wrong? It's frightening to realize that these people are allowed to vote.
     
  23. milkweed Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,654
    Doesnt change the 11 million still here. Oh goodie, it wont be 12 million next year?

    You sure your not mixing stories up?
    http://azstarnet.com/news/local/bor...6bb-11e1-ba88-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz1kP9N8qB0

    Fleeing our drug war? I posit it is the decline in use of major money makers of the cartels that is causing the fighting. Competition for weaker markets:
    Cocaine use has gone down in the last few years; from 2006 to 2011, the number of current users aged 12 or older dropped from 2.4 million to 1.4 million. Methamphetamine use has also dropped, from 731,000 current users in 2006 to 439,000 in 2011.

    http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/nationwide-trends

    As I understand it, most weed smoked in the USA is grown in the USA.

    The number of Mexican legal immigrants and Mexican illegal aliens in the United States has grown quite rapidly over the past 35 years, increasing almost 15-fold from about 760,000 in the 1970 Census to more than 11 million in 2004–an average annual growth rate of more than 8 percent, maintained over more than 3 decades. This remarkable growth has been largely driven by the encroachment of illegal aliens. On average the net Mexican population living in the United States has grown by at least a half million people a year over the past decade. About 80 to 85 percent of the immigration from Mexico and Central America in recent years has been illegal.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigrant_population_of_the_United_States
     

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