Denial of Evolution VI.

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by garbonzo, Jun 4, 2013.

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  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Again, your lack of imagination is not a constraint on physical reality.

    As far as the "point", it still doesn't make sense: patterns such as "life" can be independent of the particular substrate by which they "manifest themselves" (your thoughts are last weeks potatoes in action) while still being "direct results" of that substrate. Your choice as presented could easily be: both.

    Patterns can be - usually are - independent of substrate to at least some degree. In the case of human mental activity, the degree is quite large.
     
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  3. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    What exists outside the organic framework is the majority molecule of life; H2O. Water is where life is. If we took bacteria and removed all the water, there is no life even with all the organics in tack. We can add any other solvent, still no sign of life. As we add water back, life returns. I am not saying life can exist in only water, but organics without water are lifeless.

    The reason is connected to an analogy within physics; particle-wave duality. Life is analogous to a particle-wave phenomena, with water playing the role of wave and the organics play the role of particle.

    Within atoms, the wave functions which define the shapes of the orbitals, and how orbitals need to overlap to form molecules, tells the particles/electrons/atoms where they need to be; uncertainty principle of life. When we add water, it fluffs out the organics, to they all end up where they need to be to make life possible. If we take away the wave/water, the particles/organics are in the wrong place for life. As we add water, the organics/particles find their place.
     
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That's the classic fallacy of the anthropic principle. You assume that only water can be the solvent since 1) the Earth has a lot of water and 2) life here evolved using water as a solvent. There is nothing chemically that prevents methane, or carbon dioxide, or ammonia, or hydrogen sulfide from being the solvent of life. It should be obvious why that hasn't happened here, but on Titan things may be very different.
     
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  7. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    i assume you are talking about the supernatural.
    does it matter?
    what ever "actions" this whatever takes must manifest itself in our reality somehow.
    i'm more interested in how we can determine what life actually is, cellular life that is.
    intelligence appears to be closely related to life, cellular life displays a rudimentary intelligence.

    i also don't think we should call these things simple cells.
    the amount of information crammed into these things is astounding.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Oh I know, I posted an computer generated illustration of cell division.

    But apparently you are unfamiliar with the word potential, which you have used a thousand times in your everyday life, without understanding its fundamental significance as "a latent excellence which may become reality".

    Potential has nothing to do with "supernatural". It is an Implication of that which may become explicate in reality. It existed before the Beginning. Without the presence of potential, no action CAN take place.

    As far as I can tell only Time has no potential in and of itself. Time is created during action, but potential always precedes an action.
     
  9. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Later I was thinking, it is like those birds that have tiny crystals of magnetite in their noses. From this they are able to sense where they are based on the Earth's magnetic field.
    Among themselves they wouldn't be aware there was a magnetic field, and they might just say to each other "Oh I'm better at navigation than you" thinking the whole process is occurring in their brains.
    Sure it is their brains that analyse the signal, but the signal is exterior to their brain.

    Could our brains be picking up some sort of Quantum Mechanical signal? That is what it seems like to me.
     
  10. PartyBoy Registered Member

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    That is interesting. There are such ideas as shared dreams, where you pick up another sleeping persons brain waves, but I figure you are talking about something deeper. There are also ideas such as collective consciousness but the idea mainly applies to individuals who are awake. Psychosis can cause people to see and hear things that aren't there. I have never really heard of anyone claiming signals except maybe aliens and I figure your not talking about that describing birds the way you have. I'm truly curious what was the dream about?

    I'm not here to dismiss anything. Truly I am curious.
     
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That is possible. If you could come up with a similar physically plausible method of picking up a "quantum mechanical signal" then that would make sense. Do you know of any such method?
     
  12. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    Well do you think I could be hundreds of miles away and see how murders happened and then set out to solve them? I have detailed this on another website which I could find and give you the link provided it is still there in their archive.
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthr...ual-Guidance-assists-in-Scott-Watson-s-Pardon
    I was able to access it.

    I don't know if there are signals which every one could pick up or is it like a cellphone where the signal is for your phone only. It would be pretty weird if you could tap into everyone's memory/consciousness. That would drive you nuts coping with all those feelings.
     
  13. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    There is also something known as Intention...
    It's an interesting concept about consciousness and energy that precedes actions.

    Has anyone here explored this?
     
  14. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    was that called " telluric energy"?
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But potential does not have conscious intention. It is an implication of a possibility and probability. It is inherent in all things and does not require a single mind to become causal. On the contrary, there need to be several potentials present before a potential can be expressed in reality. A convergence of reinforcing potentials from which reality becomes manifest (Explicate)

    Example1, the water in a river has the potential for use as a source of energy but it requires the conversion of its kinetic energy to turn a generator, which then delivers energy.

    Actually, water itself has incredible potential power.

    Example2, the potential energy contained in a single glass of water, theoretically could provide energy for 1 million people (fusion technology) for 1 day. 365 glasses of water could provide energy for 1 million people for a year. This energy is already contained in the hydrogen atoms. When we drink water we partake in a great exchange of potential energy from the glass to our bodies.

    Thus we can say that water has potential for energy. Even if the water is never used for that purpose it still retains this inherent quality in latent form, not real but implied in the Implicate.

    Thus the very profound definition of the word Potential as "a latent excellence which may become reality". The encyclopedia devotes many pages to the various expressions and functions of potential, it is invoked every time we speak of the future not yet real.
    It is a fundamental component in the science of physics.

    It is my firm belief that Potential is a "common denominator" of everything. It existed before this universe existed and exists in every single particle in the universe. This has become my god and understanding the word potential has allowed me to look at the world with deeper understanding in a subjective but secular way.

    With respect for anyone who believes in the existence of a Wholeness, it must have been preceded by Potential; a latent excellence which may become reality. The Implicate becoming Explicate in reality. It cannot be otherwise, IMHO
     
  16. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    So potential takes the route of least resistance? I am asking what determines the route that the potential takes? Your glass of water isn't just going to explode in front of your face, so that potential isn't really a potential in that state. So even though you believe in your god, you haven't fully explained how it works yet.
     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    "That which may become reality" (keyword: may) implies that while not all potential becomes reality, all reality is, was, and will be preceded by potential. The potential (latent ability) for an event must be present or the event cannot occur.

    I think you are restriction the concept of potential to a form of energy, which is correct of course in physics. Lightning is a perfect example of energy finding the path of least resistance. But this is only one form of potential. Look up in how many disciplines of study the fundamental concept of potential is applied. The concept of potential pervades our society, second perhaps only to the concept of god. We just do not realize it because, as with religions, the concept of how to plan (recognizing the potential of a situation) for a possible future has been with us as long as we have roamed the earth. Man's intellectual potential is not measured in energy, but by its expression in reality.

    I am speaking of an abstract condition of inherent latent qualities of all systems. Not all potential becomes reality, but it may, if other conditions are met.

    Example. Car has potential to go 140 mph. You are only allowed 60 mph. So the car's potential is restricted from expressing itself to the fullest. But at all times is your car is capable of going 140 mph. It is an inherent excellence of the system, the car's potential.

    I believe the strength in the concept of potential lies in its absolute neutrality and it does not actually conflict with religion except in the area of Intent and Motive of the Wholeness. IMO, it explains it. Potential does not require belief or affirmation, it is a common denominator of all things in existence.

    I am a fan of David Bohm's "Implicate Order".
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps the best illustration of potential may be found in the evolution of exquisite artistry based on a simple triangle as demonstrated in this fractal reiteration.

    A simple set of instructions resulted in this exquisite masterpiece.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o5FMTHkLQg
     
  19. Robittybob1 Banned Banned

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    That must be a new use of the word "Evolution" !
    It made me feel sick just looking the first 4 minutes of that! I'm sure existence isn't like that??? How fine is the substance of the Universe?
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Read up on CDT (causal dynamic triangulation). It can map the universe at Planck scale.
     
  21. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    The fact is, the only hard evidence and proof of life, occurs within water, no matter how hard we wish for other solvents. I have heard the theory but have yet to see any more proof than we have for big foot. But is may be needed to prop up evolution so it does not list to one side.

    If you look at the basic energy balance of life as we know, water is one of the final products. If we substitute methane, ammonia, or hydrogen sulfide as a terminal product of that life forms energy cycle, there is significant lost energy. In water you can eat those solvents for extra energy. Natural selection would pick water since such organism can eat the other solvents.

    There is also the need for the solvent of life to be a liquid at reasonable temperatures or else reaction kinetics suffer. This is where the anomalous behavior of water comes in handy. Methane is definitely out, since not only does it narrow the energy bandwidth, but it slows the reactions so evolution crawls.
     
  22. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    i think science should approach creation of life from both ends.
    one starting from what is believed to be the existing conditions at the time.
    the other to create life under ANY conditions, forget what we "think" we know about the primordial conditions.

    another thing, all matter must possess the basic qualities of life and consciousness or they are derived from space-time somehow.

    very interesting conundrum we have here.
     
  23. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Have you ever actually read up on any of the current research that's being done in this area? Since Urey and Miller published their controversial findings, I mean.
     
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