A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

Hey, I am not going to say that I do not enjoy the back and forth between you and oh, say Geoff, the sarcastic wit between you two can be hilarious but then comes the nervous laughter and after that well.......

 

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I guess I would fall into that generic category of "militant atheist", although I am not in any way supportive of the coercion and persecution of religious people. I support education as the primary means of undoing the delusions and lies that get programmed into the religious from childhood. I support political action as in opposing the constant attempts of the religious right to take away our civil rights and freedom from religion. And I support the right to speak out against the institutionalized homophobia that religion represents.

See, being gay I have huge stake in opposing these systematic attempts to demonize people solely for their sexual orientation. I mean we're basically talking about a powerful global institution that has for over 2000 years proclaimed that I as a gay man have no right to exist. That my form of love is sinful, an abomination, and criminal, deserving of execution as well as damnation in an eternal hell. So entrenched is this anti-gay hatred in our society that I was basically raised to hate myself for it. How else was a devoted Christian teen to deal with his own same sex desires?

So by my early 20's I dispensed with religion altogether and accepted my gayness as part to who I am. And now I have a right to speak out against religion as the oppressive and bigoted ideology it is. If this offends theists or Christians I don't care. You need to come to grips with the fact that your religion traditionally and STILL to this very day denies the right of gay people to exist without judgment and to pursue their own happiness just like everyone else. You need to think twice about supporting a body of teachings that defines people as evil simply for who they happen to love. Why is it so hard to take a stand against something so obviously obsolete and wrong? Maybe you actually have to be gay to take religious homophobia so personally. But I KNOW who the enemy is. I have suffered the soul-crushing effect of religion in my life firsthand. I have fought to free myself from the delusional guilt, the lies, the fearmongering threats, and the empty promises of peace and immortality. And I think it only logical that I continue to oppose it wherever I encounter it, for my own sake as well as for the sake of those trapped inside of it like I was.

 

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Hear, hear! Welcome back, Magical Realist.

 

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I feel that faith is the source of injustice, so I target the source. I don't just want to win the battle, I want to win the war. I don't care what a person's religion is either, (unless it involves a romantic relationship, in which case, deal breaker).

 

Thanks! Here's something else I wanted to add:

To the point that the atheism movement is a sort of boy's club, I just wanted to point out many women who are involved in it both directly and indirectly:

A large list of awesome female atheists



"In a perfect world, we shouldn't have to have a separate list for female atheist activists. Some commenters even said such a list was "patronizing" by insinuating that women couldn't play with the big boys. But when other polls, lists, and posts seem to forget our existence, every little bit of awareness helps. We have just as insightful things to say, but we need people to listen. Once more people realize this, you'll start seeing more females listed amongst the likes of Dawkins, Hitchins, Harris, Dennett, Myers, etc...

So, without further ado, here is a list of some great female atheists who you should check out if you haven't already done so:



Authors Journalists



•Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Infidel, Nomad, The Caged Virgin
•Natalie Angier - The Canon: A whirling tour of the beautiful basics of science, Woman: An intimate geography
•Ophelia Benson - Does God Hate Women?, Why Truth Matters, The Dictionary of Fashionable Nonsense
•Susan Blackmore - Author
•Leslie Cannold - Writer and ethicist
•Jane Caro - Author and journalist
•Catherine Deveny - Author and comedian
•Ann Druyan - Author and writer
•Rebecca Goldstein - 36 Arguments for the Existence of God: A Work of Fiction
•Jennifer Hancock - The Humanist Approach to Happiness
•Jennifer Michael Hecht - Doubt: A History, The End of the Soul: Scientific Modernity, Atheism and Anthropology in France
•Susan Jacoby - The Age of American Unreason, Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism, journalist for The Washington Post's On Faith Panel
•Wendy Kaminer - Sleeping With Extra-Terrestrials: The Rise of Irrationalism and Perils of Piety
•Paula Kirby - Author
•Joan Konner - Editor of The Atheist’s Bible: An Illustrious Collection of Irreverent Thoughts
•Nica Lalli - Nothing: Something to Believe In
•Tanya Levin - Author
•Molleen Matsumura - Writes the Humanist advice column Sweet Reason, co-author of Raising Freethinkers: A Practical Guide for Parenting Beyond Belief
•Jennifer McCreight - Contributor: The Atheist's Guide to Christmas
•Sheila McLean - Writer and law & ethics researcher
•Adele Mercer - Writer and philosopher
•Maggie Miller - Actress and writer
•Meera Nanda - Breaking the Spell of Dharma, Prophets Facing Backwards
•Taslima Nasrin - Writer, human rights activist
•Christine Overall - Writer and philosopher
•Sumitra Padmanabhan - Contributor at The Freethinker and Nirmukta; Secretary of the Humanists' Association of India
•Sue-Ann Post - Comedian and Writer
•Laura Purdy - Writer and philosopher
•Joan Smith - Author
•Valerie Tarico - Author and Blogger at the Huffington Post
•Polly Toynbee - Journalist
•Marlene Winell - Author


Bloggers

•Attempts at Rational Behavior - Blogger
•Ophelia Benson - Editor of skeptical website Butterflies and Wheels
•Maia Caron - Blogger
•GodlessGirl - Blogger
•Greta Christina - Blogger, focusing on atheism, sex, GLBT issues and politics
•Evolved Rationalist - Blogger: Evolved and Rat/i/onal
•Vyckie Garrison – Creator of No Longer Quivering, a community for women who have escaped the Quiverfull movement
•GrrlScientist - Blogger: Living the Scientific Life
•Amanda Gulledge - Blogger and winner of the Good Without God essay on raising freethinking children.
•Miranda Celeste Hale - Blogger: Exquisite With Love
•Leah Elliott Hauge - Blogger: The Whore of All the Earth
•Diana Hsieh - Blogger and Rationally Selfish podcaster
•Sikivu Hutchinson -Blogger, focusing on atheism, religion, and race issues
•Angie Jackson - Blogger: Angie the Anti-Theist
•"KimDonesia" - Blogger
•Heather MacDonald - Blogger: Secular Right
•Amanda Marcotte - Blogger at Pandagon, focusing on feminism and politics
•Annie Margis - Blogger: Godishness
•Jennifer McCreight - Blogger: Blag Hag
•Melissa McEwan - Blogger: Shakesville
•Monica - Blogger: Monicks: Unleashed
•Jen Myers - Skepchick and Blogger: Deliberatepixel
•Maryam Namazie - Blogger
•Jennifer Ouellette - Author and Blogger: The X-Change Files
•Negative Entropy - Bloggers
•Possummomma - Blogger: Atheist in a Mini Van
•Jill Psmith - Blogger: I Blame the Patriarchy
•"Surly" Amy Davis Roth - Skepchick
•Acharya S - Blogger: Truth Be Known News, author
•SC - Blogger: Salty Current
•Kylyssa Shay - Blogger: That Atheist Bitch
•Signy - Ex-Muslim Blogger: Here in Glitnir
•The Skepchicks - Awesome group of bloggers
•Abby Smith - Blogger: ERV
•Kylie Sturgess - Blogger: PodBlack Cat; reporter for Skeptic Zone and host of Token Skeptic podcasts
•Laura Talley - Blogger: The Redheaded Skeptic
•Valerie Tarico - Blogger at the Huffington Post
•Sunsara Taylor - Blogger
•Rebecca Watson - Founder and contributor of the blog Skepchick

Podcasters/Videobloggers

•Jessica Constantine - Co-host of the Humanist Network News podcast
•Laci Green - Videoblogger
•Tracie Harris - Rotating co-host of the Atheist Experience show
•Diana Hsieh - Rationally Selfish podcaster
•Angie Jackson - Videoblogger
•"KimDonesia" - Videoblogger
•Ashley Paramore - Videoblogger, better known as "healthyaddict"
•Jen Peeples- Rotating co-host of the Atheist Experience show
•Cristina Rad (ZOMGitsCriss) - Wonderfully sarcastic videoblogger
•Desiree Schell - Host of Skeptically Speaking
•Kylie Sturgess - reporter for Skeptic Zone and host of Token Skeptic podcasts
•Swoopy - Host of Skepticality podcast
•Rebecca Watson - co-host of popular podcast The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe
•Reba Boyd Wooden - Executive Director of Center for Inquiry Indiana and Blogger: Freethought from the Heartland


Activists

•Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Women’s rights activist combating militant Islam
•Maggie Ardiente - Development Director at the American Humanist Association
•Lauren Becker - Outreach Coordinator for the Center for Inquiry
•Lori Lipman Brown - Founding director of Secular Coalition for America
•R. Elisabeth Cornwell - Executive director of the U.S. branch of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science
•Margaret Downey - Activist, founder and president of The Freethought Society
•Myna Futrell - Co-founder and executive director of The Brights’ Network
•Annie Laurie Gaylor - Co-founder and current co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation
•Debbie Goddard - director of African Americans for Humanism and Campus coordinator at the Center for Inquiry
•Susan Jacoby - director of New York's Center for Inquiry
•Ellen Johnson - Atheist activist, former president of American Atheists
•Kathleen Johnson - Vice president and military director of American Atheists and founder of the Military Association of


Atheists and Freethinkers

•Wendy Kaminer - Secular Coalition for America Advisory Board Member
•Lyz Liddell - Campus organizer for the Secular Student Alliance, somehow helps hundreds of non-theist student groups without exploding
•June Maxwell - Director of Humanist Academy at Glasgow
•Amanda Metskas - Head Director of Camp Quest
•Taslima Nasrin - human rights activist
•Sumitra Padmanabhan - Secretary of the Humanists' Association of India
•Toni van Pelt - Director of the Center for Inquiry-Office of Public Policy
•Eugenie Scott - executive director of the National Center for Science Education, outspoken opponent of Intelligent Design and creationism
•Ariane Sherine - Creator of the Atheist Bus Campaign
•Samantha Stein - Director of Camp Quest UK
•Wafa Sultan - Outspoken critic of Islam
•Reba Boyd Wooden - Executive Director of Center for Inquiry Indiana


Comedians/Other

•Catherine Deveny - Author and comedian
•Kathy Griffin - Hilarious comedian
•Sachiko McLean - Humanist glamor model and performer
•Maggie Miller - Actress and writer
•Carolyn Porco - Planetary scientist and public speaker
•Sue-Ann Post - Comedian and Writer
•"Surly" Amy Davis Roth - Creator of awesome skeptical jewelery
•Julia Sweeney - Comedian, on Showtime with her act Letting Go of God

And you wanna talk about "boys' clubs"? How many female theologians are there? How many female pastors, or rabbis, or cardinals, or bishops, or popes, or priests, or Muslim clerics, or Hindu gurus? The misogyny of religion is both historically demonstrated and doctrinally supported. Afterall, it was EVE who brought all this sin upon us. Hence her curse of painful childbirth. Or so the old Judeo-Christian fable goes:

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

 

So I take it that on Sciforums, 'atheism' isn't just disbelief in religious deities?

There seems to be general agreement among the board's self-identified 'atheists' that 'atheism' isn't just a metaphysical view, it's something more along the lines of a holy war. Atheism dwells on the left end of the spectrum, and it focuses on battling the evil ones, seemingly identified as 'religion' = 'theism' = 'Christianity' = the assholes who oppose everything good, smart and decent. (It's all smeared together kind of incoherently.)

Apparently it's entirely possible (on this board at least) for people to not believe in the existence of deities like Yahweh, Vishnu or Allah, and to still not be really, truely or entirely atheist, if they aren't loyal participants in atheism's righteous battle.

 

How do you feel about Fundamentalism, Yazata? I am not engaged in any holy war but I will do everything in my power(politically and economically) to stop the rise of this sect of Christianity. Leave them alone and they will go home does not work.

 

What about, say, my take on Christianity, which prescribes to a more inclusive and "eyes, minds and hearts open" kind of philosophy. Dont' just lump Christians all together - we are a diverse bunch, and different groups have different mindsets.

 

Actually that sort of 2 dimensional characterization is more typical of the religious, smearing ALL sinners together as minions of Satan who need to be opposed and condemned to hell:

1 Corinthians 6:9,10

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."


MY opposition to religion is very specific and issue-based: its dehumanization of gay people as evil perverts who have no right to live their lives. It always amazes me Yazata how silent you are on this issue. From what I recall you are bisexual, and yet you never ever take a stand on the rights of LGBTs to not be discriminated against (as in Christian businesses who refuse service to gay people) and to be treated as equal human beings. Why the silent complicity on this issue?

To avoid any future stereotyping of atheists, consider this breakdown of the 6 kinds of atheists:

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/13/poll_six_kinds_of_non_believers_in_america_partner/

 

We all know what I mean by Fundamentalism, don't we? If need be I will be glad to post links. Fundies are in every state but the hotbed of activity is in the Southeastern region of the U.S.





IMO true Christianity offers a doctrine of social justice, love and equality.

 

Paul sucks, never liked him when I was a Christian, personally I think he had an aversion to sex and women.

 

Sorry, missed that rather important modifier! My bad!

 

He wasn't the only one who had an aversion to women. Consider these quotes from the Church Fathers and Protestant Reformers. Remember, these were the guys whose writings formed the backbone of future Christian doctrine:

◾Woman is a temple built over a sewer. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

◾[Women's] very consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame.–Saint Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (c150-215) Pedagogues II, 33, 2

◾Nor are the women to smear their faces with the ensnaring devices of wily cunning. . . The Instructor [Christ] orders them to go forth “in becoming apparel, and adorn themselves with shamefacedness and sobriety, subject to their own husbands.” –Saint Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (c150-215), The Instructor

◾In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God. It was you who coaxed your way around him whom the devil had not the force to attack. With what ease you shattered that image of God: Man! Because of the death you merited, even the Son of God had to die… Woman, you are the gate to hell. –Tertullian, “the father of Latin Christianity” (c160-225)

◾For it is improper for a woman to speak in an assembly, no matter what she says,
even if she says admirable things, or even saintly things, that is of little
consequence, since they come from the mouth of a woman. –Origen (d. 258), Fragments on First Corinthians, 74

◾Woman does not possess the image of God in herself but only when taken together
with the male who is her head, so that the whole substance is one image. But
when she is assigned the role as helpmate, a function that pertains to her
alone, then she is not the image of God. But as far as the man is concerned, he
is by himself alone the image of God just as fully and completely as when he and
the woman are joined together into one. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354-430)

◾What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman… I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children. –Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius (354 – 430)

◾Woman is a misbegotten man and has a faulty and defective nature in comparison to his. Therefore she is unsure in herself. What she cannot get, she seeks to obtain through lying and diabolical deceptions. And so, to put it briefly, one must be on one’s guard with every woman, as if she were a poisonous snake and the horned devil. … Thus in evil and perverse doings woman is cleverer, that is, slyer, than man. Her feelings drive woman toward every evil, just as reason impels man toward all good. –Saint Albertus Magnus, Dominican theologian, 13th century

◾As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence. –Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, 13th century, Summa Theologica

Protestant Reformers

◾The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Works 12.94

◾No gown worse becomes a woman than the desire to be wise. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)

◾Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than women, who have but small and narrow breasts, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children. –Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546), Table Talk

◾Thus the woman, who had perversely exceeded her proper bounds, is forced back to her own position. She had, indeed, previously been subject to her husband, but that was a liberal and gentle subjection; now, however, she is cast into servitude. –John Calvin, Reformer (1509-1564), Commentary on Genesis, p. 172.

◾Do not any longer contend for mastery, for power, money, or praise. Be content to be a private, insignificant person, known and loved by God and me. . . . of what importance is your character to mankind, if you was buried just now Or if you had never lived, what loss would it be to the cause of God. –John Wesley, founder of Methodist movement (1703-1791), letter to his wife, July 15, 1774

 

I do, but you'll have to hit me harder than that.

 

That depends on how the word is being defined.

If we are talking about it in the sense of the 100-year-old pamphlet series 'The Fundamentals' (which gave 'fundamentalism' its name), I disagree with the specifics of the fundamentals (I'm not a Christian), but I don't have any big objection otherwise. I can easily see how religious believers might insist that there is some basic doctrinal core to their tradition that it's necessary to retain, if it's to be a tradition at all.

If we are talking about fundamentalism in some post-9/11 generic sense, as referring to a militant and often violent opposition to modernity in the name of ancient tradition, then generally speaking, I oppose it pretty vehemently.

I'll add that I'm not all that comfortable with militant moralism, whatever direction it's coming from. Some of the so-called 'progressive' schemes that propose to frog-march everyone into the schemers' own vision of the brave-new-future scare me too. (Marxism's 'scientific socialism' is the paradigm example of that.) Even atheists proclaiming themselves as the righteous ones makes me uneasy. I start to sense the always disagreeable odor of fanaticism and unshakeable self-righteousness. (That's when people start to get hurt.)

I wouldn't call it a 'sect' exactly and it isn't just Christianity.

But the question I have is what does atheism have to do with any of this?

Can one really derive a whole political-style program out of simple disbelief in religious deities? Can one derive the nonexistence of religious deities from opposition to 'fundamentalism' or whatever the program is? These seem to me to be two different things that may sometimes go together in a person's thinking, but they don't necessarily imply each other. And how does one make the leap from either of these things (disbelief in gods/opposition to fundamentalism) to wholesale opposition to and even hatred of 'religion' and 'religionists' in general, whatever the religious beliefs or practices might be?

Focusing one's thinking has several advantages.

First, it's fair. Focusing our arguments against what we really think is wrong prevents us from turning billions of religious people who have nothing to do with whatever we dislike into 'collateral damage'.

Second, it increases that odds that we might find allies among "religionists" who oppose the same things that we don't like.

And third, it's just smarter and more intellectually respectable. Atheists love to pose as the intelligent ones, as the voices of "reason" and "science". It's hard to make that particular boast fly when the one doing the boasting doesn't even recognize that he/she is egregiously making obvious and elementary errors in critical thinking.

 

Moderators behaving badly yet again.

You guys make me sick.

What does it say about a forum that in any given thread, the moderators are the ones acting the worst?

 

Why don't the women start their own religion, instead of invade one created by men? If men and women are equal, why not just build a church for women with women leaders, so women can be pope and priests. The males can be nuns if they wish to belong. In the Baptist religion, men leave all the time to build their own independent church with some getting huge in one lifetime. Why act like a virus that has to invade healthy tissue?

Name one religion infiltrated by females at all levels that has survived for 1000 years? Only the patriarchs will survive.

The problem appears to be the bride mentality, where once married, the male is supposed to give his wife the keys and the female leads the household. Women do a good job at the level of the family, which is part of the church. But this home scale talent does not extrapolate to the level of the church. Much of sustaining is keeping the old sofa for hundred of years, not changing with fads and style. A rapid rate of change is useful for one lifetime, until the daughter becomes a wife and matriarch and she does her own thing. Churches need to last for 100 generations.

How about a demonstration of women building their own church to see if they have the skills? This is a useful test. As analogy, if you can build a house you know how to do all the upkeep work needed to keep the house going for many generations. If you put on the roof and it leaks down the road, you can repair or replace it all by yourself. The housewife, who moves in after it is done, will not know how to put on a roof, when it leaks, since she never had to do it. She will call a contractor who may rip her off, thereby declining the church. Building is the first test of sustainable competence.

If someone has no idea how to build a house,how can you personally sustain one?

 

Because maybe they don't like to get murdered?

Doesn't mean they are in the right, only that they have bigger muscles.

 

Women "a virus that has invaded healthy tissue."? Seriously? Just to remind you, you came out of the womb of that "virus". You fed off the breast milk of that "virus". Do you think of your mother as a virus? You perfectly exemplify the very misogyny of your own religion and how it generates in otherwise healthy human minds bigotry and hatred. So keep posting. You're doing a great job proving my points.