For the alternative theorists:

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by paddoboy, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

    Messages:
    557
    I confirm. I am talking about intelligent extraterrestrial life, which I think the theory of abiogenesis implies as a very strong possibility, if not certainty.

    Also, "intervention" implies intent, the word should not be used for natural phenomena like meteorites.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    relax trippy, it's over.
    no, i'm not trolling you.
    why would i do that?
    mia culpa trippy, now relax.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

    Messages:
    557
    I see what you are saying, that biological processes based on left-handed chirality will create left-handed chirality molecules as byproduct or intermediate product and so we see these left-handed amino acids floating around living cells. But look at the second sentence from that paragraph:

    - "In biology, homochirality is a common property of amino acids and sugars. The origin of this phenomenon is not clearly understood."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homochirality

    It sounds as if it is not really understood why would even biological reactions produce homochirality.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    For alternative theorists

    Your thinking is about ideas

    Which I would never discourage , unless it just got stupid
     
  8. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    Agreed!
    But please...Don't forget about standing on the shoulders of giants also.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    Never have , never would

    But I don't past thinking , understanding etc. , as absolute either

    river
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    Is that for all, or just giants of the mainstream?
    Why I'm asking is that you seem enthusiastic about Plasma/Electric Universe theory and Hannes Alfven?
     
  11. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    all
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    Yet you except Hannes Alfvén's theory?
     
  13. river

    Messages:
    17,307
    So far

    What do you know about Hannes Alfven's theory ?
     
  14. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

    Messages:
    557
    I don't see what's the big deal. It's like someone was saying 100 years ago: "science has not yet invented computers, boo-yaaa!!". Ok, so what? We did not hit dead end and what we know so far fits very well. You are not complaining that something is wrong, you are complaining that it is not complete. You are just being impatient. I don't see you are making any point other than that.
     
  15. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

    Messages:
    557
    Who are you talking to and what is it you are talking about?
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    27,543
    So far?? You have just finished saying you don't stand on anyones shoulders?


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    I'm asking the question rivers...Answer them.
     
  17. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

    Messages:
    557
    I think what we need to do here is "reductio ad absurdum". We ought to find the one that is the first step, the simplest possible one. We need to have very clear definition of what "alive" actually means, like this one: 1. Homeostasis, 2. Organization, 3. Metabolism, 4. Growth, 5. Adaptation, 6. Response to stimuli, 7. Reproduction. -- Let's start with Szostak's replicating vesicles. If they do not fully fit the description, then what exactly is it they are lacking to be called "alive"?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
  18. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    maybe.
    the complexities of DNA would seem to preclude randomness.
     
  19. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

    Messages:
    557
    So you are talking about the environment. You're basically saying A can not eat B's food and there was more B-food than there was A-food? Man, those meteorites must have been raining like crazy if they managed to offset the balance. If they were able to do it, then Earth turbulent childhood could have done it too, much more likely and on a grater scale. And we do see life even in the most inhospitable places we can find.


    Their world is our world, the right-handed amino acid based "aliens" live among us.

    -"Over 90% of gastropod species have dextral (right-handed) shells in their coiling, but a small minority of species and genera are virtually always sinistral (left-handed). A very few species show an equal mixture of dextral and sinistral individuals."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality

    So it's not impossible, the ratio can go up to 50-50%, and even more in favor of "evil-twin alien gene". But can they all eat the same food? It's enough their enzymes can break down chiral molecules to the point they loose chirality, and then they can be "consumed" regardless of what chiral form they originally came with. And I also must ask, can they have babies? Can they share their blood? Could it be possible there are some humans based on right-handed chirality, or why not?
     
  20. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

    Messages:
    557
    Maybe? What are you so mysterious about? What are you hiding? What in the world are you complaining about? Do you think something is wrong about abiogenesis theory? Do you think you know something we should be aware of in relation to abiogenesis? What is it?
     
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Accepted.

    I'm, not in the habit of banning or warning people for genuine misunderstandings.
     
  22. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Correct.

    No, no and no!

    The reason why homochiral reactants in homochiral solvents using homochiral catalysts and homochiral substrates is well understood.

    What is not well understood is the mechanism by which a racemic mixture of amino acids became the largely homochiral life we observe today.

    I don't know how many times and different ways I've tried explaining this over the last two or three days.
     
  23. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    Messages:
    10,890
    Something like that.

    Do you understand yet why this is even considered a posibility? Or are you still trying to understand why it is thought that these meteorites bought earth its water?

    This. Is not. The same thing.

    Species with left handed shells share the same chirality of proteins as we do, it is only their shells that are special. Even there, within species that have predominantly right handed shells there are indviduals with left handed shells.

    This is no more evidence than pointing out that left handed people exist.

    Yes, it is impossible. An enzyme that has evolved to couple to a left handed protein can not couple to a right handed protein.

    No.

    No.

    No.

    Definitely not. Because, for the most part, our bodies interact poorly or do not interact at all with the wrong handedness - I mentioned drugs earlier. I mentioned Carvone, carvone isn't the only one. Ibuprofen tablets are a racemic mixture, they don't even try to make them enantiopure because it would just racemise in vivo anyway. Levoamphetamine and Detroamphetamine are both active, but have different effects, and affect different parts of the body.

    Thlidomide One enantiomer is effective against morning sickness, the other is teratogenic - it was taken off the market not because enantiopure tablets could not be made, but rather because it behaves in the same way as ibuprofen and racemises in vivo.

    Ethambutol One enantiomer is an effective tuberculosis treatment, the other causes blindness.

    Naproxen One enantiomer is an effective analgesic, the other causes liver poisoning with no analgesic effect.

    Penicillin Only one enantiomer works because it works by mimicing d-alanine.

    Propranalol One enantiomer has a calming effect, interacting with the fight or flight system, the other does not.

    Do you need me to go on? Or have I made my point. If you ate food that had the wrong chirality of proteins and amino acids, your body would not be able to process it, or would potentially poison itself in trying to do so. If the poison didn't kill you, the starvation probably would.
     

Share This Page