Proof of the supernatural

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by garbonzo, Mar 9, 2015.

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  1. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    There were several rescue workers (four if I recall) who supposedly heard this, yes?
    Is it unreasonable to assume that at least one of them said something along the lines of "Did you hear that?" when this supposedly happened?
    If even ONE of them thought they heard something, and said something like that, it would easily manipulate the others into thinking they heard it.

    That was the whole POINT of the plethora of evidence I just presented you - the human mind is fickle, and the senses easily duped. Thus, eye-witness testimony is, quite frankly, worthless.

    We have seen NOTHING to discredit any of the far more plausible mundane theories, and all of your cooked up explanations of why this has to be paranormal have more holes than swiss cheese.

    At this point, it seems like the case is pretty open and shut - they thought they heard a voice, they were mistaken. End of story.
     
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  3. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    We don't wait for an obviously biased scientific elite to tell us whether the paranormal happens or not. We go by the evidence. As in this case where 6 witnesses heard a voice coming from an overturned car. You don't need a peer-reviewed journal to confirm that. It happened and it's strong evidence for the existence of the paranormal. Which is why all the skeptics are trying so hard to debunk it. They know it is evidence. But lord knows there's NEVER evidence for the paranormal, according to them.
     
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  5. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    While this is genuinely interesting, you have to remember - correlation does not imply causation. If this was being done as a double-blind test, and if a "control" group was used using entirely neutral pictures, then we would have a study. As it is, we have a bunch of worthless data.​
     
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed, we go by the evidence... and so far, there is ZERO evidence for the existence of anything paranormal.

    You will, of course, provide proof that the "scientific elite" are "obviously biased" against the existence of paranormal activity, right?
     
  8. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Still no evidence that they were mistaken. Here's a rundown of what happened. Apparently there were 6 eyewitnesses. 4 policemen and 2 firefighters:

    "Yes, the headlines were sensational: “Crash Miracle: Utah Officers Hear Voice” and “ ‘Mysterious voice’ leads police to baby in submerged car.”

    But before you get all cynical, consider this: These were cops and firefighters, rugged tough guys, well versed in crime and the dark side, rather than anything resembling winged celestial beings.

    And it wasn’t just one person who heard the voice, but six of them: four police officers and two firefighters.

    As Spanish Fork Police Officer Tyler Beddoes told the Desert News in Salt Lake City: “It wasn’t just something that was just in our heads. To me it was plain as day cause I remember hearing a voice. I think it was Dewitt who said, ‘We’re trying. We’re trying our best to get in there.’ How do you explain that? I don’t know.”

    That plea of help led officers to rescue a Utah toddler in an overturned submerged vehicle in the Spanish Fork River near the Utah, Colorado, border last weekend. Trapped inside — upside down in her car seat for 14 hours — was an 18-month-old baby named Lily. Her mother, Lynn Jennifer Groesbeck, 25, did not survive.

    Police say that Groesbeck was returning from a visit with her parents on the night of March 6 when she hit a cement barrier on a bridge and drove off the roadway. The car was not visible from the road and wasn’t discovered until a fisherman spotted it around noon on Saturday.

    The first responders said the voice catapulted them into action, rolling the overturned submerged vehicle in the frigid, neck-high water, so cold several had to be treated for hypothermia.

    In interviews with ABC News, local TV stations and other media outlets, the six rescuers said the voice fueled their adrenaline.

    “It was a positive boost for every one of us, because I think it pushed us to go harder a little longer,” Beddoes said. “We know there was some other help there, getting us where we needed to be.”

    Officer Bryan Dewitt concurred: “We were down on the car and a distinct voice says, ‘Help me, help me.’ ”

    Officer Jared Warner said: “We’ve gotten together and just talkin’ about it, and all four of us can swear that we heard somebody inside the car saying, ‘Help.’ “We’re not exactly sure where that voice came from.”

    None of the rescue team said they thought the voice came from Groesbeck. “I don’t believe she survived the impact of the car crash,” Lt. Matt Johnson said. “There was massive trauma.”

    Two firefighters, Paul Tomadakis and Lee Mecham, said they also heard the voice before realizing there was a toddler in the car. They were able to cut the baby out of her car seat and the officers and firefighters formed an assembly line up the hill to pass the baby up to safety. Doctors from nearby Primary Children’s Hospital were crediting the rescue team for saving Lily’s life."===http://www.detroitnews.com/story/li.../mysterious-voice-utah-baby-rescued/70234940/
     
  9. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting... first it was four
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...leads-police-baby-car-crash-article-1.2142732

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2986597/Toddler-improving-14-hours-upside-car-river.html

    Now it is six...?

    And, as you can see above, they make a point of saying that they "don't know what it was they heard".

    If this were testimony in a court case, this would be enough to have the evidence thrown out, both because of the changing story, and because they dont' know what it was.

    So, once again, we are back to square one - there is NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that this was something paranormal.
     
  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    "Richard Wiseman is clear about one thing: Paranormal phenomena don't exist."===http://www.richardwiseman.com/Paranormality.shtml

    In other words, we are going to research the possibility of paranormal phenomena, but we assume it doesn't exist. Hence all evidence for the paranormal will either be attributed to mundane causes, or just filed under the category "unexplained", since we "know" paranormal phenomena don't exist.
     
  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    I presume you are using the quote from his book "Paranormality: The Science of the Supernatural"

    Are these YOUR words, or HIS words? Did he say this, or are you adding it to try and obfuscate what he is really saying?

    Here's why I ask: When a good scientist is investigating the unknown, they do not assume it to be true, nor do they assume it to be untrue. They must remain neutral - otherwise, bias will corrupt the results.

    This is part of why all these "paranormal investigators" that are actively trying to prove paranormal activity to be true are so quickly discredited - they are so quick to assume something is paranormal that they wrongly rule out mundane and simple explanations - when they are shown to be wrong, they stomp their feet and throw a hissy instead of admitting their own bias.
     
  12. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    They know they heard a voice coming from the car. But they admit they don't know who spoke.

    "Officer Jared Warner said: “We’ve gotten together and just talkin’ about it, and all four of us can swear that we heard somebody inside the car saying, ‘Help.’ “We’re not exactly sure where that voice came from.”
     
  13. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    No..it avails paranormal investigators to rule out the mundane BEFORE they conclude paranormality. You see this over and over again in investigations. Car lights from a window? Voices from the street? Electrical wiring causing high EMF readings? This is standard scientific procedure. They are NOT jumping to the conclusion that it is necessarily paranormal.
     
  14. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    And now we're back to four...
    we are also back to simple Pareidolia.

    And yet they take samples of ambiguous stimulii and pull information that isn't there from it, guiding each other into "hearing voices" in EVP's and such.

    That is cognitive bias, pure and simple!
     
  15. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    It's in quotes with a url. What do you think?
     
  16. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Nope..they all agree it was a voice coming from the car. Not a noise that sounded like it was coming from the car. Try again?

    The 4 is referring to the police officers. There were 2 fireman that admit they heard it too. I already produced evidence for that.
     
  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Nice try...

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    You edited the post AFTER I made my post to add the URL...

    And you wonder why I and others consider you dishonest.

    Again, I have shown you a MULTITUDE of evidence that proves why they can easily be mistaken - your response is to say "nope, not possible, try again"

    That is trolling, pure and simple.

    EDIT - it is also worth noting... I don't see that quote in the link you provided... please provide a proper citation...
     
  18. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    LOL! It takes me 3 minutes to go back to copy and paste a url from a quotation. You're claiming I'm lying somehow is simply untrue. I often copy your posts before you are through editing. Does that mean YOU are lying too?

    As for where that statement is located, it's at the top of the first paragraph. Do I really have to hold your hand and do this?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2015
  19. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    An interesting, but pointless, distraction - your edit didn't come until I called you out on it. A coincidence perhaps, but one that smells bad all the same... especially considering your link isn't even to the quote you used.

    Care to provide an ACTUAL citation? Do you know how to do that, even?
     
  20. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    ...and that is how we know nothing you say should be taken seriously.
     
  21. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    It's lying accusations like that that get's you ignored.
     
  22. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Uh... what first paragraph?

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    No, it's intellectual dishonesty like you are displaying here that earns you infraction points... one would THINK you would have learned this by now.
     
  23. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    You mean an obviously biased pseudoscience elite?
     
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