Folly of blaming all evils on religion

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Light Travelling, Apr 15, 2015.

  1. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    It is fairly easy as we all know to find examples of how religions and religious people have caused or done bad things in the world.

    So this leads many to conclude that religion is to blame for all ( or most) of the evil in the world.

    Now this thread is not a defence of religion, or even to say it is needed. But this ;

    The problem with blaming all the evils on religion, is that it overlooks the real and underlying causes. And that is dangerous because it leads people to conclude they have found the problem and are dealing with it.. and when religion has gone or been disproved then the world will be a better place full of decent people living in peace. Therefore the real case of the world's problems is not given the correct attention.

    Which is this;
    religion has been created by mankind, by humans, religious teaching has been written down and propagated by humans. Religions themselves are populated and run by human beings Religious persecution and atrocities are carried out by human beings. Religious dogma and dogma in general is exists because humans brought it into existence.
    So you have to look to blame humans, for even without religion, humans will still be humans. They will find another excuse to do all the same things for others reasons. And they do currently. If there are no other reasons then humans just go back to greed itself.

    You see its in our genes... its why we are the most successful animal on the planet. We are programmed genetically to conquer- to expand. To be greedy, to take what us not ours. It is how we have taken the whole planet... through our aggressive natural selection.

    So you see blaming all evil on religion, is like blaming murder on hand guns. Yes hand guns make killing easier but it is the human using the hanging that is too blame.
    Yes religions make justifying bad things easier, but in he same way it is the humans who are really to blame.

    So don't waste to much time blaming religion and spend a bit more time considering what we are as humans.
     
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  3. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    If you read the New Testament, which defines the code of Christianity, it does not defend any of the evil you show. The teachings try to show the path of love that is the opposite of that evil. But since the history of the Catholic Church often shows the opposite occurred, then one can conclude this was not due to the teachings of the religion, rather it was due to interests apart from the religious teachings.

    As an analogy, blaming the religious aspect, is like saying there is a manual for operating the new cell phone. A person buys a new phone, but ignores the manual and programs it their own way, causing lost functionality and bugs. Atheists will blame the manual and manufacturer for this problem. The US Constitution instituted separation of Church and State to address this historical problem, of the state and secular interests not using the religious manual, but rather altering these teachings, for prestige, money and power.

    In the New Testament, lying is sin. Say Christianity could go into the American government and enforce the lying clause. This would be resisted, but it would make the government more honest, with politicians unable to scam the people as free and easy as today. Would religion get credit for this? The answer is no.

    Say secular interests and scamming politicians; state, could go into an honest church to make it function more in the image of politics, instead of the New Testament manual. They allow lying, spin, conning and crony capitalism. Would this make that church better and or worse and would religion get blamed, if the church began to act like this?

    Blaming the religion is an atheist scam, since atheists were among those who infiltrated the pure religion and caused religion to downgrade into their own image. If there is no God, killing and torture are tools. You need to scam those who have faith by telling them this is God's will. But in the end, it is all about power and money in high places.

    The separation of church and state was useful because it helped expose this deception, so people could see who was at fault. Christianity got nicer, while government got wasteful and scandalous, with nobody punished. Government is atheist. Too many people fall for the atheist scam artists that religion does not condone. They messed up religion by allowing the state and secular to infiltrate and distort the manual. Then they blame for a smoke screen.
     
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  5. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    It's just foolish. But it's something that militant atheists will often say.

    It's like politics. It's trivially easy to find examples of evils done for political reasons, but it's probably simplistic to blame all of the world's evils on politics.

    That kind of return to the Garden of Eden is never going to happen.

    I think that atheists often overestimate how easy it will be to eliminate "religion". Anthropologically, religion is probably as close to a human universal as there is, apart from use of spoken language perhaps. Every known culture displays some form of religiosity. That suggests that whatever motivates and gives rise to religiosity is more firmly rooted in human psychology than most atheists are willing to acknowledge.

    Or desire, more broadly. Religion often provides a symbolic language for whatever people think of as highest and best. People are often motivated (or they like to pretend they are motivated) by their deepest values. People believe that if their desired changes are put into place, things will be indescribably better. It doesn't always work out for the best. When one's goal becomes inflated and idealized, whoever stands in the way of that desire tends to end up with tire-tracks all over them.

    The avowedly atheist Marxists don't seem to have had any more success. They suppressed "religion" and replaced it with... themselves. A utopian eschatological worldview so drunk on its own self-righteousness that it didn't matter who got hurt on the path to their promised classless Kingdom of (no)God.
     
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  7. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    OP's post is bullshit. People will not kill people for violating a religious law if there weren't a religion. Religion makes otherwise good intentioned people do bad things. Yes, people can still be violent, but if religion can't prevent such violence (or other wrongdoing) then what's the point? It doesn't do what it says it does. I include various other forms of faith in this, not just religion but superstition of all sorts.

    Why would anyone even think to cut off the end of a baby's penis, or cut off a girl's clit if a faith tradition didn't make them do so? Why would anyone strap on a bomb and blow themselves up if they didn't think they would get a reward in paradise? Why would a Jehovah's Witness pretend a close relative doesn't exist if their religion didn't tell them? Tell me religion isn't to blame when a mob beats to death a women alleged to have burned a page of the Quran! I dare you. Religious atrocities are so common that an atheist podcast I listen to has no shortage of stories to talk about every damn week.

    Yes, I don't blame all evil on religion, just a large part of human activities that are religiously inspired.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree. The vast majority of the time, religion merely provides an excuse for a bad person to do something bad in the name of a religion. The good-intentioned people of the world are not corrupted by religion any more than children are corrupted by videogames or society is corrupted by homosexuality.
    For the most part, agreed.
    Tradition - which exists independent of religion (although religion is a convenient conduit to preserve traditions both good and bad.)
    Because they are angry and evil. The Tamil Tigers, an atheist splinter group in Sri Lanka, invented suicide belts and vests as a method of terrorism.
    Same reason an atheist might refuse to acknowledge the existence of a cousin engaged in jihad.
    The mob who beats a woman to death is responsible for her death, no matter what they (or you) blame it on. Would you honestly let a murderer go free if he claimed a religious motive, because religion was to blame?
     
  9. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Blaming religion for evil is as pointless as blaming Satan. Both are products of human beings.

    Religion is often used as a means of control by those in positions of power... but so is patriotism.
     
  10. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    Firstly when you say religious laws you really mean man made laws as it was men that thought of them and implemented them.

    but people will kill each other for food, for land, for wealth, for love, for revenge.

    Often the real motive of kings and generals and bishops is land and wealth. Religion is just a convenient justification. Humans have spread across the face of his earth and become the most successful animal on the planet the alpha predator, you could say that religion is the tool that allowed them to do it, as all successful human cultures have employed religion. But humans would have done it anyway. As it is our evolutionary drive that pushes is to do that, as with all successful animals.

    Animal predators will kill co predators. Not for food just to gain sole control of the food source. A pack of wolves will tear a coyote to death and not eat it. It is not religion that makes them do it or evil. It is just nature and we are human animals with the same natural instinct.


    Prove they are otherwise good intentioned people. You can't.!

    otherwise what you say here is pure speculation.

    That may well have some truth to it. But the OP did make it quite clear this was not a defence of religion. The point of the thread is not that religion is great but that you are missing man's natural capacity for behaving the the way they do.

    if this were true then one could use religion as a mitigating circumstance on court, like temporary insanity. People still choose whether to do what they do. Not all people do the same thing when exposed to the same religious message.

    but the point you are still dodging, is that all these religious laws you talk about are just created in the minds of men.

    when you say religious laws make people do things. . What you are really saying is, man made laws make other men do things. Religions don't make people do things, as they are not things in themselves. Men make other men do things. Accept it. Sometimes they use religion or patriotism or wealth to get their way. But it all comes from the minds of men.
     
  11. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, no shit.
    Yeah, no shit.
    That's the whole problem. They can too easily hide their true motivations with religion, and no one can question it, at least not when religion held any political power.
    Look at parents who love their children but refuse them medical care because their religion told them it was evil. You can't tell me these otherwise loving parents just wanted their children to die and used their religion as an excuse. The fact is they are torn between their love for their child and loyalty to their faith. They face shunning by their families and community if they would do otherwise. This is the evil that faith produces.
    Religion is especially insidious, as it exploits our superstition. Faith isn't just some idea that some guy had, it infiltrates the entire community, and it has the reinforcement of cosmic significance. It's disallows skepticism. It's a system of mind control that western society is just coming out of with the enlightenment. It's an idea, but it's a special kind of idea. It doesn't cause all evil, but it does cause a special kind of evil in that people who do evil in it's name think they are doing good. If the evil person is a religious leader, they get clout that "just some guy" wouldn't have. The followers of Jim Jones weren't suicidal, but under the mass delusion of their religious leader, they were willing to kill themselves and their whole families. Religious people don't think their religion is "just a man made idea".

    Convincing people that religion is just a man-made idea is a major goal of atheists like me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
  12. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    the argument is circular as superstition is also a man made idea.

    faith is different from religion. I can have faith my friends will be loyal...
    apart from that it is just an idea that some guys had. I mean originally it must have been. Unless there is something inherent in us.

    no it doesn't, hence breakaway religions, different religions. And the existence of atheists.
    what disallows skepticism is humans. Specially the human instinct to act like a pack. It's group mentality. animalistic in its origin.


    again the causation is the wrong way round. It doesn't cause anything. It is used as a tool to cause things

    Apart from that, the idea of evil is again a man made concept. There is no good and evil in nature. Things are just as they are. Without judgement.

    there is a difference between anti religion and anti theism.

    The are theists who are against organised religion too.
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Correct. No more so than atheists who refuse to get their children vaccinated just wanted their children to die. They think they are _helping_ their kids. They just have some stupid ideas on it that they justify through a website or a book or a religion.
    No, they are just gullible.
    That's also true if they are a popular author, or speaker, or entertainer

    The Puputan of 1906 in Bali was an even larger mass suicide.
    Of course it's a man-made idea.
     
  14. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly, rejecting science and embracing faith are two sides of the same coin.
    I would say that about all religious faith.
    Popular entertainers don't claim to be messengers from the same entity that created you and the universe itself.
    I don't care.
     
  15. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    It's found in birds too, so... no.
    I use the word differently than mere "trust". Faith I define as belief in things without evidence and even in spite of contrary evidence.
    Religion is a human creation. It's an irrelevant point. Humans create a system of faith that is often contradicted by evidence and yet people still believe it for all kinds of invented reasons; the threat of eternal punishment, the potential loss of respect and family if they express doubts, the suppression of contrary evidence, the threat of execution... I'm opposed to such religious systems. They contribute to the proliferation of wars, and in theocracies, they are totalitarian and morally abhorrent.
    I'm not talking about religious evil but rather moral evils. Things which are objectively immoral, like slavery and murder of innocent people.
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    And yet both happen independently - thus cannot be the same coin.
    And religious leaders don't tell you to go on grapefruit diets - and (at least nowadays) religious leaders don't drop nuclear weapons on people.
    That is becoming clear. But some of us do care about the facts. You are certainly free to ignore them.
     
  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Denying evidence. Same coin.
    Um, there are numerous dietary restrictions in religion. And they often preach an apocalyptic eschatology. That combined with nuclear weapons could very well bring about the very thing they envision.
     
  18. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    unless you mean birds as in British slang for girls? I not sure what you mean here. Care to elaborate?

    the systems were created when there was no contradicting evidence. They then became so engrained culturally that it became difficult to change.

    I know you and many others are, but this thread is not supposed to be about whether religions are good or bad. But about whether men are good or bad without religion.
    I say they will act according to nature and natural instincts ; which is neither good nor bad, but neither are they benevolent and altruistic.

    Again I say in nature things happen that we would consider terrible, but in nature they just happen and are not judged.
    for example animals will kill the existing offspring of a new mate. By human standards that would be abhorrent. So the vast majority of our concepts of good and evil are man made.

    I meant to reply to this earlier but seem to have missed it:
    Yes this is a god example of religion having a bad effect on someone's life and it is a sad situation.
    However it does not actually prove that they would have been otherwise good intentioned people. They may have fell into bad parenthood or other bad behaviour for other reasons. We just don't know.
    children are mentally and physically abused all over the world by people from all different religions, from people with no religion, from communists, from Republicans. Mistreatment of children is not a trait of religion, it is a trait of humanity.
     
  19. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Welcome to Atheism!
    Experiments were conducted on pigeons. Faced with rewards for specific behavior, they would learn that behavior. We just call that positive reinforcement. But when faced with random rewards, they often developed idiosyncratic behavior. It's as if they believed that the thing they were doing at the time they were rewarded would result in further reward. If they were rewarded again for that same thing as a result of random chance, this behavior became reinforced. It's analogous to superstitious behavior in human beings.
    That's a different question. I acknowledge that without religion, in general, good people would be good, and bad people would be bad. It takes religion to make good people do bad things (or alternatively some other ideology that is not subject to skepticism).
    Irrelevant. In general we don't use nature as a guide to human morality.
    It happens all the time. And they don't treat their other kids badly (except of course for raising them in a religion). We know this pretty well since they undergo trials, in states where killing your kid for religion is illegal.
     
  20. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    It is the leaders who incite their followers to start trouble in many instances where religion is involved. Those leaders seem to want others to kill for them so they might have more money, goods , land to call their own. Look where most religious leaders live today many in mansions, estates and multi million dollar escapes. When people are stupid enough to follow someone who wants their followers to kill and die for them it is a better idea to kill those assholes and lead a better life and get along with others instead.
     
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. Religion is just a convenient excuse. Royalty, patriotism, ideology and rebellion have all been used for the same purpose.
    It is a far, far better idea to simply ignore them.
     
  22. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Sometimes. But that doesn't absolve faith for making it possible.

    Sometimes it's just the sacred text itself that's to blame.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Nonsense. That makes as much sense as "violent videogames make teenagers kill" or "gay marriages destroy society."
     

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