What is "Rape Culture"?

I specified, specifically, yours. That exact term - "yours". Three times now, including twice before while you repeated the spurious demand.

That range is fine - any number in there will do.

Many kinds of evidence besides "data" back my observations. In this case I rested on your posting about the video, which is in English vernacular I recognize and clearly from a person immersed in a rape culture from childhood on. I could also include all the posts from you like this one:

That's proof, actually. That's the face of the abuser, confident in their impunity, assuming the cultural normality of their behavior.

It's about the undesirability of living under continual threat and frequent, damaging abuse. It's not good for people. It's a bad way to live - not just for the targets, but for the perps as well.

 

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Not when you made the initial claim, which was: "Other people would hypothesize that the absence of continual public and private harassment and the absence of serious threat are factors in the estimation of seriousness overall."

If you can show where in the above sentence you specifically used the word 'yours', then please repost the claim with the word bolded. Otherwise I'll just dismiss this as more misinformation on your part.

Any number between 50.1% and 99.9% 'will do'? Are you intentionally being funny, or do you really think such an imprecise hypothesized data range makes you sound credible?

I'm going to assume this is your round-about way of admitting that you don't have any hard data to support your claim that most (ie. 50.1-99.9%) women in my society are subjected to continual public and private harassment, otherwise you would have already posted it and put egg on my face. Come to think of it, you probably need to explain exactly what you mean by 'continual'. Do you mean that 50.1-99.9% of women in my society are subjected to sexual harassment every second of every day? If not, at what interval are they harassed? How would you measure this, if we were to assume you knew where I lived?

Where I cited a number of examples of men giving simple greetings to a woman passing by? Actually, thanks for mentioning that. I've just remembered you still haven't explained why the examples I cited constituted sexual harassment. To re-iterate:

Again, I'm reminded of yet another query you have yet to address, which is "... how can a sample size of 1 be used to make valid statistical inferences about millions of people?" Or, to put it more simply, how can you be sure my views are reflective of my societal norms? By your own admission you at one point implied I'm an outlier even in my own society.

Or perhaps in my culture, telling someone to smile doesn't necessarily have a sexual connotation? After all, I've been told a number of times to smile by professional photographers, and have never felt like I was being sexually harassed. Furthermore, one need simply look at the video milkweed posted, where a student asked numerous people to smile, and most appeared to be flattered.

 

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From the Vaults

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Ladylike: Ask Panty. Or not.​

One thing that has bugged me since the outset is the pretense of ignorance many participants show. We might, for instance, contrast the inquiry of the topic post↑, which is phrased with a pretense of gentle ignorance, against the assured belligerence of the subsequent response↑ ignoring what it responds to↑. It's a straightforward process: (1) Ask a question. (2) Ignore the answer. (3) Answer your own alleged ignorance.

And, yes, for the most part it seems like a setup; the inquiry was likely never honest. To the other, if we presume it was, what we end up with is the topic poster protesting that "a term to describe collectively beliefs and behaviors within a societal culture contributing to rape" is an "insult to our [male] gender and [general] culture" because it is "a radical element" that "truly makes men, all men, look like savages by nature".

Still, though, there is another aspect to the inquiry; there have been somewhere between several and many threads dealing with misogyny and rape culture at Sciforums over the last couple years, and they all run thick with pretentious denial. And the thing is that while we can't presume any one pesron has encountered this or that post or group of posts in this or that thread, we might suggest that it's hard to see how people might enjoy repeating themselves for the sake of pretentious ignorance presented by someone who simply refuses to acknowledge what other people are saying.

Then again, this is the discussion people want to have; they don't want to discuss the nature and effects of rape culture↗, but, rather, argue about whether pretentious fallacies of their own invention are true.

Yet amid all that bawling and bluster, some get around to asking questions that people answered long ago, so we might as well get some of those on the record, too.

† † †​

A question arises whether or not women contribute to rape culture. A counterpoint would be to simply ask if women are human beings. The answer to either question is yes.

One of the most obvious contributions is the result of societal conditioning; for instance, an expression of the point from May, 2014↗:

The end of this culture of male privilege will cause some women distress; generally speaking, those will be the ones who have found a comfortable niche within the structure. My daughter's maternal grandmother is a properly constricted, child-like, submissive wife in a particularly striking distillation of this privileged outlook. It's not the run of the mill abusive culture, but, rather, that she has been groomed throughout her entire lifetime to be subordinate. She is a devout Christian whose reading comprehension is such that she struggles through children's bibles; she never learned how to write a check; I'm pretty certain she doesn't know how to deposit one.

To the other, how can we expect her to indict her own life experiences? Neurotically it is predictable that anyone, regardless of puerility or no, would struggle to indict their own lifetime as such.​

Or a couple weeks later, considering Infinite Prevention Advice↗:

The problem is that all these IPAs who feel offended because, in their mind, they have the best of intentions and a functional answer, have neurotic investment, unwittingly or otherwise, in protecting themselves. I sometimes make the joke that they're trying to improve their odds of getting laid; after all, if it isn't rape? If it's her fault?

And this doesn't just affect men. Who among us would so easily indict their own life? How many women of my mother's and grandmothers' generations would hew to the traditional line because otherwise they must admit they are a sexual violence survivor, and what follows from there are the customary self-condemnations for everything she did wrong? It's always astounding when we can watch the tragic passing of that torch from one generation to the next, and others would hold those up as examples of a proper outlook. Avoidance of self-indictment is one of the easiest neurotic functions to observe; it is nearly as common as breathing, and in some acute contexts should be vivisected, not dissected.​

May, 2015↗ raised a context of purity cult:

Somewhere in America right now, a mother knows she helped set her daughter up to be hurt. Not intentionally. She just passed on the family values. And that's why the girl didn't say anything. And that's why nobody noticed. Nobody enjoys indicting their entire life.

But that mother? Certes, we don't envy her; but what about the men? Consider that this spectre reaches into our daily lives. In order to drive the absurdity of that point, I would simply note that last year I had occasion to write↱:​

And, you know, damn it, if a continuing rape crisis besieging the women we know—our mothers and daughters and sisters and friends—is what it takes for you to be able to crack a crude, locker-room joke without feeling like you’re oppressing women, what the hell is wrong with you?​

Because, yes, that's how deeply it reaches. Nobody enjoys indicting their entire life. Rape is so fundamentally woven into our culture that everybody has a neurotic reason to look away. At some point, we have to accept that yes, dealing with rape culture really does mean killing some of the fun. And, you know, sure, it's not much compared to the actual phenomenon, but I would also ask that we consider just how absurdly awful things are that such a sentence would have any substantial meaning, or even reason for existing. Because that absurdity is why such a stupid sentence about killing the fun has such gravity. We can roll our eyes and scowl and roar all we want, but this is what we're up against.​

And here we actually find one of the most acute iterations of rape culture; the generation that precedes me suffered greatly for the burdens passed from one generation to the next. For the most part it is a matter of acculturation and habit; in some cases, it bubbles up spectacularly.

To the other, the general proposition that, traditionally, mothers teach their daughters is pretty self-evident.

What are they teaching? What did prior generations teach?

My mother is hardly alone among her generation in prescribing a general notion of what is or isn't ladylike. I don't even know where to start on what's wrong with that kind of gendertyping as a general proposition, but I would note that even at this more enlightened and liberating end of the ladylike spectrum, it is still both heterosexually-oriented and subordinate.

No, really, I don't get how girl power and ladylike go together.

Nor is it my job to craft a definition for a progressively acceptable assertion of what is ladylike. Why would I invest anything in the endeavor, as I believe gendertyping needs to go away?

But my mother also tells a story of how her female coworkers, when she was a teenager, counseled a sixteen year-old who had just been attacked on her way to work to not report it because that was only making trouble for herself.

Society has come a long way, and maybe to some a mix of girl power and ladylike doesn't seem so big a deal, but the history invested in the proposition of what is or isn't ladylike, whether it whispers or screams, describes danger.

Rape culture is a term to describe collectively beliefs and behaviors within a societal culture contributing to rape. We all do our part. Even women. And I would think it self-evident that cultural tradition, handed down through generations, when it contributes to rape, is about as obvious an aspect of rape culture as one could possibly ask for.

In the question of mothers passing these traditions to their daughters, even in muted, diluted forms, the solution is simply enough expressed: Stop it.

As a practical question, it simply isn't so simple.

Because, you know, #WhatAboutTheMen? Some of them are still willing to fight tooth and nail in order to sexually groom their daughters. When purity culture faces the Star, we will actually have a religious freedom argument about all this.

But the question of women's contribution to rape culture arises. The if and how seem pretty self-evident. Then again, I half expect an inquiry wondering what is this notion of ladylike because they've never ever heard of it.

That's how stupid this discussion is getting. The question of women's contribution to rape culture arises; I can only wonder what the real question is.

 

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That random selection doesn't even include the word "society" - the term involved.

Yep. Now back to the argument - you do recall what you were trying to talk about, I hope.

Anticipating the illiteracy problem, I recommended a good dictionary for you. The American Heritage Third, printed not on-line, is my favorite and widely available. Nothing with the word "Webster" in the title is reliable, online or off.

In your culture, harassing and implicitly threatening women like that is normal. You describe it as "giving simple greetings".

And there's my evidence.

 

So you're admitting that when you made the claim that women are subjected to continual public and private harassment, you didn't specify in what society this occurred. Good. Now you should understand why I asked for clarification. Unlike some posters here, I prefer to gather all relevant information on someone's views before I attempt to address them. You might want to try that approach one day, to avoid embarrassing yourself as you have done in this discussion.

I'm trying to make life easier for you by having you define your terms more precisely, which would in turn assist in your search for data to substantiate your assertion. Then again, since you apparently don't intend to support your claims with empirical evidence of any sort, I can see why you aren't willing to invest the time to ensure your points of contention are cogent and logical. It would be silly to ensure your points of cogent and logical, when you aren't going to invest any time or effort in supporting them anyway.

Fortunately everything we both type is a matter of public record, so your attempts to cherry pick and play dumb are going to be pretty transparent to anyone reading this thread. To re-iterate, I asked you to provide data to substantiate your claim that most (50.1%-99.9%) women in my society are continually subjected to harassment. I also asked for you to clarify what you meant by 'continual' in the context of your claim. You have failed to adequately address either of these issues. At this point I think it is safe to assume that you have effectively tapped out, and are content to simply repeat the same fallacious assumptions and flawed premises ad nauseum.

You still haven't explained how the following simple greetings constitute sexual harassment:

You also failed to explain how telling someone to smile always has a sexual connotation in my culture. That's hardly surprising, given that you aren't even aware of where I live, making any of your claims about my culture mere conjecture on your behalf. Personally, I consider myself a better authority on my culture than you, given that I know it and live in it.

 

Every society has it.

It's a matter of upbringing.

Well, also the culture of money.

 

I know, right? I see your appeals to ridicule, your appeals to consequences, your appeals to fear, your appeals to spite, and your continual appeals to emotion, but what I don’t see is any evidence.

You know, I think the lady at (44:50) is spot on. It’s fear mongering and they’re good at it. {golf clap}

The universities get millions and millions in grant money but what’s your goal? Is it to make us feel helpless?
Ah, readers! A writer needs readers, is that it?

At last, after reviewing all the evidence, or the lack thereof, my cognitive dissonance is resolved.

We don't live in a rape culture.

 

Surprisingly, this thread generated a large response. I don't know. Certainly my views are different than those of a woman. Perhaps if I were the object of attention, whether it be good or bad, my views would differ. Anyway, my thanks to all who participated. I now feel compelled to ask women I know how they feel about the notion of "Rape Culture." I've asked my wife and daughter, yet they are oblivious to the term. Maybe it just hasn't caught on in the general public.

 

On Fallacies and Advocacy

Congratulations. You have just resolved your cognitive dissonance by concluding that your own straw man doesn't exist.

Nobody could have predicted that outcome, except that we've already been through a version of it in this thread. And here you are, five hundred fifty-some posts later, trying to pull off the McElroy Lie↑.

So did you think if you waited long enough nobody would notice? Or are you not paying attention to the people you're responding to?

I think an observable difference is very striking. When it comes to discussing the nature and effects of rape culture, what we really need to be talking about is straw men raised by people who want us to believe it doesn't exist.

Think about it. You can't even answer that. There was already a discussion of rape culture ongoing↱, but apparently we can only delve deeper into the nature of rape culture by diving into fallacies. Look at the start of this thread: (1) Inquiry from pretense of ignorance↑; (2) Definition offered in response to inquiry↑; (3) Definition ignored and discussion evaded in order to raise a straw man↑.

Because, you know, when it comes to the human rights of people who happen to be female, the important thing here is to honor the men who refuse to acknowledge the humanity and human rights of women. They are, after all, the only ones qualified

And no, it is not surprising that with the McElroy Lie on the table, you would blithely wander right back to it.

Your entire effort in this discussion, eighty-eight posts so far, has been dedicated to proving that a fallacious construction, a straw man, doesn't exist.

But thank you for your sustained campaign in support of the beliefs and behaviors within a societal culture contributing to rape.

Earlier in the thread↑, you and I discussed the difference between apologetics and advocacy as pertains to rape culture; you have quite aptly illustrated that difference.

Really? Eighty-eight posts for the sake of a fallcy in defense of rape culture?

Yeah, that's rape advocacy.

 

You cannot defend something that does not exist.

She's right,though. Women's voices are being silenced by the feminazis.

A cause, that's what it is. The desire to belong and be part of something greater than themselves.

Nope, that's just your manipulative tactics. {golf clap}

 

I beleive Bowser is lying,

 

You haven't acknowledged most of the evidence, and you have an obsession with the frequency of actual rape and similar irrelevancies that indicates you don't know what the evidence is for the arguments being made. So it's not very likely that you have "reviewed" it.

And the mask comes off.

Y'know, most of the time (like the girl here) Limbaugh himself was trying to refer to femileninists or femistalinists or femimaoists (my pick) rather than feminazis - not that greater precision of the term would have lead to greater accuracy in its use, but the sheer brutal ignorance enshrined and engorged in American political discourse by that ugly man's efforts is going to be his legacy for us all. It would be a decent joke if those folks had a sense of humor. It would be a sad but forgivable cultural quirk if those people who have been silenced by the "feminazis" would ever actually keep silent for some measurable length of time, instead of taking over the public media of the entire country with their never-ending whinging and yammering.

I was addressing you. You asked what society was involved, when I addressed you, and I said yours. When you asked again I said "yours" again. And similarly as you kept asking. I didn't say "yours, dumbass" the third or fourth time because I was being polite.

I have always accepted your posting here as good evidence of your culture, including your labeling of street harassment and implicit threat as normal social behavior. I accept your expertise - I believe you when you say public threats and harassments of women by men acting with impunity are normal in your culture, for example.

 

Although this wasn't directed at me personally, I'd like to point out that iceaura previously claimed I was the only one commenting on the frequency of actual rape in regards to determining whether a rape culture existed. However, now he's claiming that Secular is also obsessed over it, which is in direct contradiction to his claim that I'm the only one that mentioned it.

Yep. But you never specified you were referring to my particular culture when you initially made the claim, which is why I asked which culture you were referring to. If your assertions didn't tend to lack clarity, then there would be no need for me to ask all of these questions.

You still have yet to explain how you can infer the beliefs of millions of people from one person. You've also neglected to explain how telling someone to 'Smile' always has a sexual connotation. Do you think that a professional photographer is harassing a woman when he asks them to smile?

Furthermore, you still haven't explained how the following simple greetings from the specified video constitute sexual harassment:

Can you quote where I said that, rather than simply providing your own rather hazy interpretation of our discussion. After all, you have already misrepresented me a number of times in this thread, so I don't think it's a good idea for the audience to rely on your paraphrasing of my views.

By the way, you still haven't substantiated any of your other claims. Just to remind both the audience and yourself of the assertions you've chickened out of supporting, here they are again, with your most recent claims down the bottom of the list:

My prediction of your response is as follows:

 

Like most people, I’m cautious. Besides, its unfounded fear, right? I’m more likely to be raped by someone I know and trust, right?

How ‘bout you, James? How do you feel because there is far more violence depicted against men? Not only is it socially acceptable, it’s funny, ha-ha! A kick to the balls, a slap to the face, ha-ha-ha!



Sexually harassed, had enough? Why not kidnap your boss and hogtie him like the pig he is? Ha-ha-ha!

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I'm looking for a sensitive man, one who cries when I slap him, ha-ha!

 

I would think that it would be obvious should one exist. If we live in such a culture, wouldn't it be apparent to all? But let's not go there. I'm satisfied with the idea that, for some, it is real. I don't want to argue its validity anymore.

 

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​

Sounds about right.

This whole thread has been for the sake of ... what?

Because just like with the human rights of women, once you find yourself in the corner, you don't want to talk about it anymore↗.

In the first post of this thread, you asked a question↑. I am among those who tried to answer your inquiry↑, but you have ignored that and other answers in order to argue against a fallacy↑ of your own devising.

This is not what we would call honest.

Your enitre setup is problematic: You think it should be obvious rape culture should exist? Well, which rape culture are you referring to? Because it really does seem like you're referring to your own straw man.

So let's start with that: Which assertion of rape culture is so hard for you to see?

• "Rape culture is a term to describe collectively beliefs and behaviors within a societal culture contributing to rape."

• "I believe we are entering a radical element with the 'Rape Culture' rally call. It truly makes men, all men, look like savages by nature. It's an insult to our gender and to our culture. I don't buy into it."​

Which one?

I mean, sure, I get that you haven't been part of the past discussions, even if you took part↗. But that's the thing; your pretense of ignorance in the topic post was suspect from the outset, and its purpose and character were revealed when you started actually started discussing the issue with other people↑.

And we need one more definition from you, please:

• You have posted under dishonest pretenses in order to spread misogynist propaganda and attempt to fallaciously paint the human rights of women as some sort of offense against men. What do you think we should call that?​

 

Why is it unfounded? It is a risk you face in our society, one that you acknowledge by your caution.

Why would you not worry about that?

"The tables are turned" is a frequent subject of comedy. That's why it's funny to depict a traffic cop getting a ticket.