Brain in a vat

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by James R, Nov 22, 2016.

  1. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

    Messages:
    638
    This I know: I know that I know and I know what I know. It is really unimportant to me whether anyone else knows that I know or knows what I know - unfortunately the discourse herein reveals that many folks (brains-in-whatever) really want others (brains-in-whatever) to know that they know and know what they (sic, think) they know. Shakespeare said it best . . . . . ."much ado about nothing".
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,324
    It’s isolation from the framework of the simulation, not from the remainder of the rest of the world outside of it. As I stated in the earlier example, sex slave Syne has all of the contact before simulation that he has during simulation, the only difference is that he can’t do it physically. You could engage in remote sex with former and prospective lovers, carry on your conversations here on this forum, or even run for president. How is this not causal connection?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    It speaks to the human condition on what we can know. You are human, right?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

    Messages:
    638
    Yes . . . . last time I looked.
     
  8. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,515
    Hey, keep your fantasies to yourself, bub.

    The isolation from the "framework" of the simulation also necessitates isolation from the actual brain in vat, which is the minimum causal connection to refer to said brain. You do know that we're talking about causal connection to the things referenced in the claim "we are brains in vats" right? How do you propose such a person has a causal connection to their brain in a vat, without knowledge of said brain or vat?
     
  9. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,201
    Are you sure? How do you know?
     
  10. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    What is your point?
    You asked the question.

    But "I" do.

    Because he cannot know anything with any amount certainty, lest he doesn't actually believe it is possible to be a BIV.

    Also the BIV cannot know whether or not it's a BIV, so to claim it is, or it is not a BIV, is necessarily false.

    How is it justified?

    How do you know "it's just a matter of biology and technology?

    Jan.
     
  11. birch Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,077
    Maybe its not brains in vats but we are floating in gas or a booger or cough. Does god pass gas, pick nose or sneeze during flu season?
     
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    'The Great Green Arkleseizure is the creator of the universe, as claimed by adherents of the faith on planet Viltvodle VI. The Jatravartids of this faith believe that the Universe was sneezed out the Great Green Arkleseizure's nose.

    Humma Kavula is a missionary of the Great Green Arkleseizure religion on Viltvodle VI. He ends his sermons with a simple "Bless you".

    http://hitchhikers.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Green_Arkleseizure
     
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    Good. That means you can olny know what your sense are telling you, and cannot tell if what your sense are telling you is reality or an elaborate illusion fed to your senses.

    It becomes important in discussions about how people (Jan, for example) can claim to know about bigger reality beyond that which he can sense.
    After all, that is the thread from which this side discussion sprang.

    There is much ado about what it means to be a thinking, sensing entity.
     
  14. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

    Messages:
    638
    YES, I'm sure . . . . I KNOW what I know!
     
  15. karenmansker HSIRI Banned

    Messages:
    638
    A thinking, sensing, entity knows that he/she knows and knows what he/she knows. Some can 'know' a bigger reality, beyond his/her (normal) sensory milieu because his/her (sense) of reality is more expansive., But, unfortunately, most others can't/won't accept such an expanded reality without proof. This may explain a main difference between hypothesis and theory (ref: Scientific Method).
     
  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    And how can they know it is real, as opposed to delusion?

    It must be confirmable by an independent source, to rule out obsever error.

    I see unicorns. I guess that means they're real?

    Fortunately.

    Because otherwise our world would be run by woo.

    Er no.
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,397
    So, if you're a brain in a vat, then to claim that you are not is necessarily false.
     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    And, since we've established that a BIV is in no way mentally inferior to a BIB (brain in a body), it follows directly that - if you are not a brain in a vat - to claim you are not is also necessarily false.
     
    James R likes this.
  19. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,324
    Considering many of the aspects of the experiment are the stuff of fantasy, it then becomes necessary to use fantasy to illustrate the effective execution of it.

    You erroneously stipulated that an envatted brain and the mind it expresses could have no causal connection with any level of existence outside of the simulation, but I effectively demonstrated that to be false.

    Knowledge of the framework needs to be isolated from the brain to maintain the illusion of a rational local environment and a physiologically intact individual, this is accomplished through simulation. Parts of the simulation would function as an interface for the brain to communicate with the reality outside of the framework.

    Just as the brain of real world Syne assumes to be in an actual skull, the identical brain in a vat that identifies as sex slave Syne also assumes to be in an actual skull. How would real Syne verify the location of his brain? He could visually inspect it during a craniotomy. Sex slave Syne could virtually do the same. Maybe Syne touches his exposed brain with his finger. Sex slave Syne replicates the actual touch with an interfaced tactilely sensitive robotic hand. We could go on and on about ways to effectively replicate the actions associated with a brain out of a vat by one in a vat, and they would all be qualitatively alike in regards to knowledge.
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    Explain the "bigger reality".

    Jan.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2016
  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    How can I explain what you consider this bigger reality, if you can't?

    What did you call God that you know in your heart exists?

    God is all. God is one. God is everything. God is.

    Your description of God is a deepity.
     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    1. Either I am a BIV or I am not a BIV
    2. If I am a BIV, then “I am a BIV” is true iff I have sense impressions of being a BIV
    3. If I am a BIV, then I do not have sense-impressions of being a BIV
    4. If I am a BIV, then “I am a BIV” is false (2,3)
    5. If I am not a BIV, then “I am a BIV” is true iff I am a BIV
    6. If I am not a BIV, then “I am a BIV” is false (5)
    7. “I am a BIV” is false (1, 4, 6)
    Not my argument, but a relevant one all the same.

    Jan.
     
  23. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,968
    So although you use the term "bigger reality", it has no meaning outside your brain.

    As a person who believes it is possible to be a BIV, who accepts that he can know nothing at all, with any degree of certainty, everything and anything you say is a deepity.

    Jan.
     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.

Share This Page