The beginners guide to light!

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by amber, Jan 31, 2018.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    That is it...We, via employing better equipment can see further than we once could but that is separate to the universe actually expanding...it is expanding and we have observations to show that it is...
    There is a limit on how much we can see due to this expansion.
    Alex
     
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  3. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    If everything is moving further apart then don't you think that implies that the universe (y'know, the thing that everything else is inside of) must be getting bigger?
    By definition (since the universe comprises all objects) then the fact that the distance between those objects is increasing means that the universe is expanding.
     
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  5. amber Registered Member

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    By stating the Universe is expanding, that includes the space and suggests an edge or a surface like a balloon. What the Hubble observation implies in my opinion, is that the observation of space is expanding. The objects moving away allowing us to observe/perceive/measure more distance of space.
     
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  7. amber Registered Member

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    The observations are not of space, we cannot see space.
     
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    We observe that space is expanding.
    Objects move apart.
    So you can have a group of galaxies in a region of space and they may be all moving closer to each other.
    Another group of galaxies somewhat near by on a cosmological scale may also locally be moving closer to the other galaxies in that group, however those two groups may be moving away from each other.

    The moving away part is the space between them expanding.
    And individual objects are not growing in step with the expansion...
    Alex
    Alex
     
  9. amber Registered Member

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    Can you imagine a local explosion and shrapnel flirting outwards in all directions?

    Would you say the space was expanding ? or the shrapnel was travelling into more space and increasing the distance away from the explosion?
     
  10. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    "Outside of the universe" is a meaningless term. There need not be any edge.

    It's already been pointed out to you that objects moving apart means that space between them is getting larger.
    Ergo: "expanding space" and "objects moving apart" are the same thing.
     
  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Yes you can it is very dark...
    Sorry your point is somewhat correct but we know what space is doing by observing objects.
    Alex
     
  12. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Except that the universe includes space. Thus the "shrapnel" and the space between the bits of shrapnel are counted as whole (i.e. the volume encompassed by that shrapnel). Thus the universe is expanding.
     
  13. amber Registered Member

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    We know what objects are doing is not the same as knowing what something we cannot see is doing.
     
  14. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Don't be ridiculous.
    If you put a pencil two feet away from a pen and then move the pencil has the space between the two not expanded? (Or contracted if you moved it closer?).
    The ONLY way two objects can become further apart is if the space (gap) between them has increased (expanded).
     
  15. amber Registered Member

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    I do not really see how that defends the notion. You already told me we cannot see space then imply the space is expanding by declaring the Universe is expanding which includes space. A distance getting longer is far from space expanding.
     
  16. amber Registered Member

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    No, the length of space gets longer , the space itself does not expand.
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    I would definetly say the shrapnel is travelling into more space.

    However if you use an explosion to get your head around it perhaps think of it this way.

    At the point of the expolsion there is no space but the explosion creates the space as it moves outwards.

    Thinking of the big bang as an explosion is not a really good thing...

    First the big bang explosion was so much more fast there is no comparison.

    Second the space (and time) is created by the explosion...and although difficult to visualise outside of the shock wave does not exist...it is not even nothing..whatever that is.

    There is no outside and imaging you can look from the outside can not reflect the reality.

    The big bang is creating space and time.

    Alex
     
  18. amber Registered Member

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    Start with a 1 meter ruler which represent 1 meter of space, move your pencils apart or move them closer to each other within the 1 meter, has the 1 meter expanded or contracted?
     
  19. amber Registered Member

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    It would need existing space to move outwards otherwise the explosion would be contained.
     
  20. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Listen very carefully and try to abandon pre existing concepts or belief.
    Before big bang for the purpose of this explanation...there is no time..there is no space...nothing zip not there...it is the big bang that is creating time and space...
    There is nothing that it moves into...the big bang is creating the something.
    Alex
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    8,502
    Perhaps drop the word explosion it seems only to create a view that does not apply.
    Alex
     
  22. amber Registered Member

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    OK, but am I not allowed to question the Physics involved? To question the teacher?
     
  23. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    It's the same thing!

    What? If the length increases then the distance (space) has expanded.

    I have no idea what you mean. If you move them away from each other then the space between them has expanded.
    You appear to be under the impression that the universe is a fixed and delimited size - this is not (so far as the evidence goes) the case.
     

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