Can a preacher be sincere and intelligent and still perform his duties?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Seattle, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    It's a racket in that anyone can lecture as long as they "love Jesus". One of your parents dies, you can home to the funeral and the minister wants to inject himself into everything, hoping for donations.

    Their salary is tax free isn't it as well as their housing.
     
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  3. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    this depends on if they're a religious organisation that is covered under the Tax code. Not all religions are tax-exempt (the Pastafarians, for example, don't have a 501(c)3 exemption that I am aware of ... yet LMFAO).
     
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  5. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    In my first job out of school I worked in a office where the laziest guy there was a religious guy that spent most of his free time going to church "pie socials" and otherwise hanging around the church.

    He eventually quit his job and somehow got a church of his own.

    Another guy that I knew from scuba diving was a minister and was an attention whore. I'm not saying that they weren't believers, they were, but they mainly seemed to be into the attention, free housing, food, people fawning over them, etc.

    It's easy to be traveling and eating all the time while "ministering", going to conferences, figuring out how to "grow" the congregation. Most of their friends are from the congregation so it's a pretty closed world.
     
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  7. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, I see this a lot. offered imho only, much like the most successful businesspeople, the curch leadership attracts those who like manipulating, dominating and controlling others. The church hierarchy seems to be riddled with it, but is it because it's promoted or because they gravitate towards the positions and manipulate their way into the cush job?
    I've seen the occasional study about business and sociopathy or related topics, so I wonder if anyone actually targeted religious leaders?
     
  8. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    The second guy I mentioned used to be a dairy farmer, then a real estate guy and then went to a local "Bible School" and he was off and running. Now he has started his own Bible School....serving the Lord.

    He wasn't even religious until he married his religious wife. I think there are more sociopaths in religion (leadership) than in business (and they certainly exist in business). Most successful business people IMO aren't sociopaths (some are).
     
  9. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    true sociopaths? probably not.
    I have to be honest here: I have a strong bias against religion... not a faith, mind, but religion in general, and very specifically, the codified rules that are usually arbitrarily made up to control and judge others.

    to be very clear, I don't care one whit about what faith a person has, or even what rules they make up for themselves to follow. it's when they decide to make up the everyone-must-obey-rules for being a good [x] that I think sh*t goes south in a hurry. This is best exemplified by the x-tian bible where most x-tians totally ignore what they dislike about the bible while claiming it's the word of their god and adhering to only what they want.

    I've always seen religion as being separate from faith, mostly because we all have faith at some time in our life, be it the belief in a deity or simply a belief that you'll live long enough to draw retirement.
     
  10. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Those being the major religions - by number - practiced in our culture, they have departments in big mainstream universities and some big schools of their own, and lots and lots of churches, and extensive administrative hierarchies. That doesn't mean non x-tian religions let just anybody off the street minister to their spiritual needs, though Buddhists and Sikhs are less dependent on ordained persons to carry out the rituals. IOW, no preaching. I suppose that makes them less susceptible to accusations of insincerity. But how can you tell?
    I don't see how that relates to whether they can be sincere and intelligent.

    On the other theme, yes, it's quite common for people to con other people out of money or favours. Some offer spiritual guidance; some offer investment opportunities or payday loans; some offer easy weight-loss programs. But I'm reasonably sure there are also honest financial advisors and personal trainers, just as there are honest pastors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  11. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    again, that really depends on the religion. in the past 30 years, I've seen a major increase in the number of "ministers" and other religious leaders in the Native American belief systems who are teaching the "one way to believe" method (usually a con), which can be shocking to some especially when you're part of a tribe in which the culture is that your religion or beliefs are pretty much your own and no person can tell you which path you must follow (strict individualists in that regard - you can get advice, but no person can tell you what is right or wrong about your beliefs).
    Almost every tribe has a different set of beliefs in a lot of different areas. It's usually a cultural thing that brings like-minded or related tribes together, like the Seven Sacred Rights of the Lakota. These beliefs are not the same thing as religion, but some teach it as such. The religion, or faith, aspects are completely unique to the individual though there are a lot of similarities in certain areas, usually because of the cultural beliefs, histories and mythology shared with each other. A good example of the latter would be the Lakota Heyoka or Plains tribe Contraries who tend to do things backwards or differently than everyone else, living their lives in an extraordinary way.
    good question, Jeeves.
    it relates only to the process of ordination
     
  12. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, that varies greatly.
    And we have to face the fact that more weird religious shit happens in the US than anywhere else, because Americans are so open to all manner and weird shit - and so tax-allergic. I conjecture, without ready-to-hand documentary evidence - that The USA is, and always has been, the most hospitable place for confidence trickery of every kind.
    Still, though...
    Does it really matter whether the person who "solemnized" your wedding vows went to Harvard? For legal purposes, you need a license anyway; for all other purposes, no holiness of orders can make you keep a promise you don't mean.
    Does it matter where and how long your grief counsellor trained, if they have the compassion and understanding to help you through the rough patch?
    I'm not a fan of "preaching", but I've heard some quite inspiring sermons (Martin Luther King springs to mind) and some really yawnworthy lectures from professors with degrees up and down the wazoo and some amazing stupid garbage from eminent economists.
     
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  13. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    not going to argue with that! LOL
    I have to admit, having worked as a firefighter, that this is so f*cking true. Man, but getting your budget approved and pick up needed safety equipment to do the job is like pulling teeth from a pissed off hungry Tiger's mouth with petroleum jelly all over your hands while he tries to eat your face
     
  14. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    You shoulda worked for Exxon.
     
  15. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    We have the crazy religions here in the U.S. while you have the good ones, right? The real ones?

    A psychiatrist is a medical doctor and they are trained to help those though grief or you can just talk to a guy who believes in the supernatural. You're choice I guess.

    You can get married without going to a minister (justice of the peace) so going to a minister is just a side racket for the church.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  16. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Who's "you" and what are "the good and real" religions?
    IOW - whadyoutalkinboutmaan?

    I know what psychiatrists are and what they charge per hour of "helping" and I know that the vast majority of poor people in the world believe in some religion, but have never gotten within new Mercedes-sniffing-distance of a psychiatrist.
    None of which has anything to do with me or my choices.
    I'm aware of that, having done so.
    Yeah, but the churches thought of it long before the government got in on the racket!
     
  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    Since I quote you, you means you. My point is there are no "good" religions. They are all crazy.
     
  18. foghorn Valued Senior Member

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    Apparently, it maybe because the US is outside the '' relatively well-educated parts of London''.
    Can there be such a thing as religious eugenics ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  19. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    You quoted this:
    ....And we have to face the fact that more weird religious shit happens in the US than anywhere else, because Americans are so open to all manner and weird shit - and so tax-allergic....
    and responded with the non sequitur:
    I suggested nothing about good or real religions, nor having any religion at all. Earlier, and several times, I have made that quite clear.
    So, I ask again, why the accusatory tone?
    Yes; we understood that to be your strongly-held opinion.
    How does that qualify you to judge other people's sincerity or intelligence?
     
  20. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    warning: I'm feeling quite silly as I've not had a lot of sleep ...
    you know, there is a strong argument that India has the US beat hands down (balls down? *) with regard to weird religious shit happening...

    (* I wonder if they had a sale on Mountain Oysters after the ceremony?)
    offered IMHO only, and speculating about the thread above while just coming from a humour thread that is everything but now that certain people are having a running meltdown...

    it's may well be because we've just learned that having a sense of humour that doesn't fit certain other people's guidelines of what is funny makes us all stupid, illiterate, racist, conservative, sexist, ultra-right-wing, pro-Trump, anti-logic, malicious bigots, and a few other pejoratives (see also: "banderlog").

    this can have a toll on the mood when posting

    this is all speculation, mind.
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Martin Luther King, Jr.
     
  22. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    So that's 400 religious nuts who won't make any little religious nuts, won't beat any demons out of their children or make them drink poisoned koolaid.
    (BTW, you know the Catholic church used to do that little boys, just so they'd sing prettily.)
    That's just one kind of craziness, and it's less crazy (though braver) than putting underwear on statues or checking out the underwear of people using women's bathrooms.... Okay, you might have a contest going. Might be entertaining --- from a safe distance.
     
  23. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    I prefer traffic cones...

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    man, but do I love Glasgow and their sense of humour! ROTFLMFAO


    LMFAO
    you're not far enough, bro! You're still American. LOL

    I do thing the Pastafarians should go for a 501(c)3 though. I know it's been judged "not a religion", but if we can have Moonies, I think we should allow Pastafarians... what do you think, Jeeves?

    (better yet, what would Bertie do? - LOL)
     
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