Karen

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by DaveC426913, Apr 28, 2020.

?

How bad is the Karen slur on a continuous scale of OK to horrible?

Poll closed May 12, 2020.
  1. 0 Harmless silly internet fun that too many are offended by

    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. 1 Mostly harmless "You may be a redneck if..." fun

    3 vote(s)
    75.0%
  3. 2. Harmful, but not surprising in a cynical world

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. 3. Very harmful - needs to be fought as any other form of oppression

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. 4. Analogous to the N-word - as some claim

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    There is a certain irony here..

    Would [you] prefer I refer to in the 3rd person?

    I am addressing your comments and your arguments.

    How would you want me to respond to you, exactly? Shall I call you Karen? Oh wait, no, you haven't complained to management... yet...

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    Is this your attempt of addressing the issue and not the issuer?

    And great for them. More power to them for being proud of it.

    Black people will know to simply just steer clear of such a person instead of being fearful without knowing who is "a Karen".

    No!

    Really?!?

    Why I never..!!

    Yes Dave. Black people and minorities will label someone as "Karen" when she acts like "a Karen".

    In the same way as we will label someone a white supremacist when they act like a white supremacist. Plus, Karen is shorter than white supremacist.

    Are you though?

    Because this tells me you don't really like to be corrected..

    How dare people promote hate and intolerance against white supremacy, racism, bigotry and white privilege!

    We should really love and embrace white supremacy, racism, bigotry and white privilege. Us dark folk should really just keep remembering our place in society and not get too uppity and when a white woman sticks her head in the window of our car and starts screaming abuse or calls the police on us at work because we won't give her what she thinks she is entitled to, we should embrace it! Love it!

    God forbid we try to label such behaviour because that is the real hatred and intolerance right there!

    Given that Karen is usually fronting up against 'them negroes' when she's demanding to speak to the manager, we really should expect her to get whatever she damn well thinks she's entitled to get..

    And when she calls the police on the black people who won't give her what she thinks she's entitled to, best not refer to her as "a Karen", because gosh, golly, gee, we don't want to promote hatred against the historical and present ideology that sees white people behave in atrocious ways towards people they deem to be inferior to themselves and expect that their position in society should give them whatever they damn well want to get.

    We'll just stick with calling her "a bitch" instead...?

    Imagine talking about intolerance against intolerance..?

    Are you sure about that?

    Because as a person of colour, I have only ever seen it used in response to racism and bigotry.
     
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  3. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    In the UK we also have (or is it had, 'cos I don't hear them so often now) similar memes for the "dumb blonde" (usually from Essex) stereotype - called Sharon and Tracey. I think it must be had, actually, 'cos our "culture" now seems to revel in the celebrity of such people who happen to be wealthy. In the UK, Karen just seems to be another one of those - although not one I have heard until very recently, and I may be mistaken as to the purpose behind it.
     
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  5. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That was a question, asked of you. I think you scanned past it too quickly.

    But its moot, because you definitely answer it later on.


    OK, so this indicates that we are sort of talking about two different flavours.

    The Karen meme is a recent uptick in labeling privileged people - on the internet. When online users are saying "Karen wants to see the manager," they are not face-to-face with a real person - and that Karen is not spewing privilege at the user.


    OK, so one thing I am hearing here is that the original use of Karen is still in quite common use.

    Good to know.

    There's no need to read more into my words than necessary.

    Now that is a meaty contribution. Your experience is different from mine. That provides a different perspective for me.

    Thanks.
     
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  7. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    Yah. Memes, slang, whatever -- mutably diversify in function or meaning as other groups co-opt expressions from their original source and context. The "all over the place" aspect of Urban Dictionary definitions (including international tweaks).

    One claim is that Julie Bindel first "saw white misogynistic men use it [Karen] towards older women". Having the watchdog vigilance of a call-out culture participant, along with elevated sensibilities of belonging to both radical feminist and LGBT+ communities, that was a trigger for jumping up on the soapbox. Generalizing it to "this hurts all women [...] Karen was now the classist, sexist arsenal of men. [...One might...] accept that the [current] popularity of the meme ... does stem, in part, from sexism. However, getting to the Karen equals discrimination conclusion requires an enormous leap: Entirely ignoring the racist behaviours the nickname originally intended to personify." --The Independent
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Karen is the latest in a line of meme's describing privileged white women and invented by African Americans.

    And I'm sorry, but if you see someone spewing hatred, it's okay to call it out and label it as what it is and if someone is being a "Karen" to someone else, then yeah, call it out for what it is, even if it is not aimed "at the user".

    Here's the thing about racism, bigotry, supremacism and white privilege.. When you remain silent, when you consider it a slur to call out that sort of behaviour, when you seek to protect "Karen" and her white privilege in this way, then it reeks of complicity.

    If Karen doesn't like to be referred to as "Karen", then perhaps she should not be a "Karen"...?

    Dave, "Karen" is essentially calling someone out for appalling behaviour - most often than not, when it's aimed at minorities because of her entitled and white privileged self.

    When you come across as protesting against terms that are used to call out said behaviour and when you essentially seem upset that other people are calling out such behaviour because it's not aimed "at the user", then it's fair to say that I am not reading more into your words.

    Your post came across as a complaint that other people, not victims of "Karen", were calling her Karen. I have noted previously that Karen is a white supremacist.

    Calling out her behaviour as "Karen" is not a slur. It's calling out bad behaviour.

    And frankly, it is being kind.

    My argument has not really varied about this during my participation in this thread. So I fail to see how or why this now suddenly provides a different perspective for you.
     
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  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    Yes it has. Your argument is no longer merely academic; it's directly anecdotal.

    You've given it legs, by referring to an actual in-person experience of yours, as opposed to an armchair hypothetical (which is what most of the rest of us are doing - notably me).

    Because my exposure to it has only been to the meme online - to and from people on social media sites, hiding behind usernames, while pointing fingers at unsourced images of dubious origin.

    You are asserting you have experienced it in real life, between one flesh-and-blood person and another flesh-and-blood person.

    That's why I started this thread - to get a wider perspective. Now that my self-admitted near-sighted bias has been highlighted, I would be interested in hearing more about it.
     
  10. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    "If you don't immediately know what this thread is about, you may want to be reticent to weigh in.
    Please be sure to do your own reading up on the issue - I don't want to bias the input by laying down my own definition.
    Just Google history/summary Karen meme and read what people have to say."
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    Yes. That's what I said.
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    I don't think you have read what I have actually said.

    I noted that as a person of colour, I have only ever seen "Karen" used in response to racism and bigotry..

    In other words, as a person of colour, I have only ever seen other PoC's use it in response to racism and bigotry.

    And as a PoC, have I experienced "Karen's" in the past? Yes. But we referred to it as other things, back then.

    Social media allows people to identify and spread images, videos, etc of Karen's and people like her with her ideology, online and to also show what some people experience at the hands of white supremacists.

    I think most importantly, you haven't exactly been exposed to that level of racism or bigotry. I mean, how could you be?

    So perhaps you should do some research about how Karen came to be and why and you might understand why she will spread through social media like wild fire when she rears her ugly head...

    Secondly, attempting to diminish what PoC's and victims of Karen's experience by labeling her hashtag as a slur. Black people see the behaviour or read #Karen and they will automatically know and understand what the victim of Karen is feeling and/or enduring in the video or photo. Don't even get me started on the comparison to the "n-word" in your poll..

    Yes Dave. I have been on the receiving end of racism, bigotry, white supremacy and white privilege.

    Ask the black people you know about racism, bigotry, white supremacy and white privilege. And go from there. And by the end you might, just might, understand why "Karen" exists as a meme.
     
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  13. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    Good advice, great way for you to hear more about it.
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    That was in post 41. Prior to post 41, you had not mentioned any personal experience with it.

    It was subsequent to that that I pointed out your argument had changed - from "this is what's happening out there in the internets" to "this is what has happened to me."

    So yes I'm reading what you said.

    You're kind of repeating my premise. I stated from the outset that:

    "I acknowledge it is surely more nuanced than I am aware, and thus there are aspects to it I have not considered."

    So you don't get any points for that.

    I am. There's no need for your admonishment; I'm not obliged to meet your criteria for research before posting.

    I also stated from the outset that:

    "It has a current-usage, it has a past usage, and it even has a deep past usage. And there are certain contexts in which it should be examined."

    By "deep past usage", I was referring to its origins. But I also said I didn't want to bias input. Your input is exactly what I was looking for.


    It's not my comparison. It is what is currently being touted in popular media - which is what drove this thread. (I guess it's my turn to admonish you for not doing your research.

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    )

    I'm asking here, thankyouverymuch.

    You're still arguing with the "you"s. Moreso, you're arguing "You should do X..." Don't do that.
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Is there a reason why I should?

    I never actually said that "this is what happened to me". I said that as a person of colour, I had only ever seen Karen used in response to racism and bigotry.

    You are reading what you want to read.

    I wasn't aware that there was a point system in place.

    You acknowledge that it is more nuanced than you are aware, but you refuse to accept those nuances and persist in a line of argument that portrays Karen as the victim.

    I'll repeat it one more time.

    Karen is a white supremacist who uses her white privilege to threaten the livelihoods and ultimately the lives of people of colour and those whom she deems less than her.

    What is absolutely astonishing is that is who Karen is and it is the one thing that is missing from your poll, queries and questions about Karen and it is the one thing you seem keen to push back against.

    I would expect that anyone would do some modicum of research before starting a thread. It's not a personal criteria. Just something that one would expect on any forum really. Otherwise, why write about something you have no knowledge of?

    Most importantly, why remove all context about Karen to portray her as a victim and then claim lack of knowledge about "Karen"? Or is that really the true intent?

    That what has made me respond in this thread. The fact that you deliberately left out the actual context of Karen and what she represents in your attempt to paint her as something else altogether. You have altered the context of Karen for reasons known only to yourself.

    And then, when you are queried about this, you respond defensively because I am asking you about your perspective on this, which apparently is something only you are allowed to do...

    There are a lot of things to tackle in that statement, but I'll start with the most basic.. Why do you think I would have a deeper insight into "Karen" than many of you?

    Oh wait, I'm the black person you are asking?

    Don't you know any others?

    Have you considered that perhaps your input and your reasoning behind this thread is in itself biased?

    I'll ask you this way..

    Why do you think that the use of Karen may be racist, sexist, misogynistic, ageist and *cough* somehow akin to using the "n-word"?

    You have already said in the thread that you think it's racist because Karen is white.

    Black people refer to her as Karen because of her racism, bigotry and white privilege.. Do you think it is racist to point out her racism by labeling her for her behaviour?

    Let me ask you this, Dave. If you see a child having a massive tantrum in a supermarket, do you think it would be ageist to refer to said child as a brat?

    One middle aged white woman known for her bigotry wrote a set of now deleted tweets, to whine about the use of Karen as a meme. She deleted them because of the pushback from predominately feminists who are PoC's because her tweets amounted to whining about the push back against the white privilege of women much like herself.

    And here is where it gets interesting..

    Naturally, as soon as the tweet was sent, Julie was immediately dragged for her stance.

    Considering that there has been a long history of these exact type of women targeting people of colour for merely existing, it’s hard for anyone to believe that the term ‘Karen’ holds any real power in oppressing middle-class white women. At least not in the way real slurs affect people of different religions, sexual orientations, ethnicity and races.

    Sure, Karen is probably a little hurtful for those white women who fit into the Karen mould, but oppressive? Not likely.

    But for Julie, and the other middle-aged white women who support her view, they believe that the term ‘Karen’ is offensive because it’s “sexist, classist and ageist.” Not really sure if people being classist against the rich is really anything to complain about in the current climate, but I guess for the Karens of the world, it is.

    Maintaining the narrative that ‘Karen’ is indeed a slur, Julie then claimed that the term was “certainly used by enough white men for it to be morphed into a misogynistic slur.”

    “The ageism too is a massive problem,” she continued. “I think countering racism with ageism is not great.”

    And where you obviously entered the fray/fold when you noticed it:

    To further the great Karen debate, a parody and right-wing troll Twitter account started a poll asking whether the word, which is “an equivalent of the n-word for white women”, should be banned on the platform.

    As a result, people started to question the anti-Karen logic. Mainly, if the idea that the two words were actually at all comparable, why could Karen be written out in full but not the n-word itself?

    Unable to be justified, the ‘Karen Is A Slur’ meme quickly snowballed. Trending on Twitter, people started sharing their justifications for using the word Karen — much like how white people try to legitimise their use of the n-word, despite not being part of the culture.

    Frankly, it's all a little bit sad.

    I had noted before that the people who are scrunching their noses at the whole "Karen" meme are all white.. Have you ever paused to ask yourself why that is?

    There are many questions to be asked about this thread, Dave, and you have tried to dodge them quite a bit and you have been quite defensive about it. Your reasons are your own. I honestly do not care. Certainly, one could delve into a history of a patriarchal society hell bent on protecting white women, and how feminists such as Julie Bindel balk against such patriarchal attitudes but who also benefit greatly from it, as their position as white women guarantees them a level of protection regardless and how the Karen meme fits into that.. I mean, this whole thread is kind of proof of that.. But you aren't here for that, are you?

    When you go out of your way to seek input from me, don't then turn around and pull this:

    Out of whatever orifice you may choose to nominate.

    And I'm not arguing. I am merely disgusted.

    I am always disgusted at this particular form of dog whistling, Dave.

    And when you start a thread with a premise that people do their research, perhaps you should apply your own request and recommendations to yourself.
     
  16. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    OK, I guess you need to do your own research then, before contributing here eh?

    Apparently, it is also more nuanced than you are aware.

    This is a current trending Karen meme.

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    In recent usage, it has become disconnected from its origins.


    That is one facet.
    There are others. Maybe do some research?

    Maybe you should.

    Ah, the ol' connivation. A classic Bells trope.

    Apparently, I can "have no knowledge of a subject" and yet "deliberately paint it as something else" at the same time.


    *sigh*
    I don't think you care about the thread subject at all. As is your M.O., you are absolutely determined to pervert it to nothing but accusations and blame.

    I'm open to learning about this subject. I don't need to be verbally bullied and gaslighted in the process. That's my right.

    I will scan the first few paragraphs of your posts for contributions to the thread and just skip over all the verbal bludgeoning. If you want my attention, you know what to do.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Interesting. Wiki talks at-length about "Speak to the Manager" Karen, but not the origin in racist use.

    In fact, according to Wiki: "The origins of Karen as an Internet meme predominately date back to an anonymous Reddit user, Fuck_You_Karen, who would make posts ranting about and denigrating his ex-wife Karen, who he alleged had "taken" both his children and, later, his house during divorce proceedings. The unintentional entertainment value provided by the posts led to the creation of a subreddit in 2017".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(slang)


    "The stereotype saw greater prominence in mid-2019... the term gained prominence in Hispanic and African-American communities as a way to describe racist suburban white women who would supposedly call the police on people of color for minor trespasses."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(slang)#Usage_and_examples


    TLDR: the Karen meme came first in 2017, and was only co-opted almost two years later in 2019 in its racist form.

    While Wiki is certainly not an authority, I'd be interested in references showing the racist form of Karen preceding the meme.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    And for the record, it was not me that suggested it is a slur, or whether it is the equivalent of the N-word. These are current on-going debates in the media - not merely my opinion:

    'The term also saw heightened scrutiny in April 2020, with considerable debate over whether the term constitutes a slur: a Twitter account named "Friends of Journalism" asserted the term to be "an equivalent of the n-word for white women"'.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(slang)#Usage_and_examples
    Plenty of sources are available. Depends what your reference preferences are.

    Frankly, I think the N-word comparison is ridiculous, but that's why this thread exists - to get a range of input.

    (But now I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one who has been researching the meme.

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    Maybe I'm actually ahead of the curve.)

    Regardless, it should be apparent to anyone that there is in fact a wide range of viewpoints on the matter, which is why the poll includes them.

    If I could go back and edit it, I might take Bells' advice and add a negative value "-1: the meme is attempting to do good - by shining a spotlight on racists and calling them Karen".
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,270
    Why? I understand the Karen phenomenon quite well. Karen is the latest iteration of white supremacist and white privilege. I understand how that works very well. Do you?

    There is something to be said about white people trying to whitesplain racism to people of colour and telling us to do research on it..

    Nope.

    I am well versed in addressing and identifying racism and bigotry, Dave. I don't need a thread to have people explain it to me. But please, whitesplain Karen at me some more and tell me I don't really get something that is just the same thing under a new name.. Please tell me how calling out racism and bigotry and calling it Karen is a slur some more, or that it is racist to refer to her as Karen..

    I understand the nuances, Dave. Us darkies learn to identify those from a very young age.

    Do you understand that you are the victim of a right wing white supremacist troll online, so much so that you copied their words for your poll? Talk about nuanced! Why? Because the white privilege of white women is being threatened by mocking! I have repeatedly said there was an irony in this entire thread. Too bad you haven't noticed it yet.

    She is one of them. There are several, as I linked in an earlier post. What about it?

    Its origins for people of colour has not changed. I keep having to repeat this..

    I linked you numerous articles, Dave. Did you not read them?

    Karen will always be entitled and feel white privilege. She would not be Karen, otherwise.

    You do understand this, yes?

    About white privilege, racism, bigotry? I live that daily. I am living it right now, Dave. Karen is just the latest meme. It was Becky not that long ago. The crux remains the same.

    You started a thread about Karen and asked various questions, while completely ignoring how "Karen" as a current meme came to be. You attempted to completely erase who and what Karen was to fit a narrative that she was somehow the victim. You even whined that she was called Karen by people who were not her victims and you kept reiterating that it was a "slur".

    And how did this come to pass?

    You got sucked in on social media. A white middle aged privileged woman started tweeting and whining about "Karen", while being a Karen herself - with a history of bigotry under her belt mind you.. She then deleted the tweet when people rightly pushed back against her idiocy. But the damage was done. And sure enough, they started to tweet about the injustice of "Karen" and how she is a victim. And here you are.

    Following their exact path and ignoring "Karen", because you want to alter her and portray her as the victim.

    You have repeatedly said that you don't really know this subject Dave and you were begging for input about it.

    You deliberately sought me out for my input and you are yet to explain why you wanted my perspective on "Karen". The impression I got literally amounted to you asking the resident black person and then getting upset because said resident black person is not responding how you expected me to respond. You then proceed to diminish my experiences with racism and discrimination, which is and always had been what I had been addressing regarding Karen, and when that did not go well for you, you resort to the other racist trope of saying this is apparently typical behaviour for me.. Not to mention the whole spiel of not using "you" when you have consistently been doing the same, and as true to form when white privilege is challenged, you accuse me of bullying ..

    The irony is that this thread is about "Karen".. Should I expect to see yet another report from you, true to form for you, Dave?

    Let me just make a few things clear for you, Dave..

    I am not the resident black person for you. You are clearly aware of the racism behind Karen, otherwise you would not have pulled the stupid stunt you pulled in this thread. If you want to talk bullying and gaslighting, perhaps you should consider your intent behind this clickbait thread, and your deliberate portrayal of the perpetrator as the victim and likening its use to the use of "nigger" .. You think it is ridiculous, but put it there for a "range of input"? As I said clickbait.

    And I see that you are intent on diminishing the racial aspect of Karen and you persist in portraying her as the victim.. You claim you are not the one calling it a slur, but you repeatedly said it was and then said it was racist because Karen is white. Perhaps you should refer back to page 1 of this thread.

    One of the most interesting aspects to this whole response to Karen, is just how far and low people are willing to go to protect the white privilege of white women. Isn't that right Dave?
     
  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    For the record, because I can see how there might have been some confusion:

    I had no idea you were a person of colour, let alone black in particular, until you drew attention to it right here in this thread, on this very page. Your colour has never come up in any post of your I've ever read. It honestly never occurred to me what your ethnicity might be. That is the truth.

    The reason I was interested in your opinion was because I know you are a woman whom I have seen fight against sexism. That is the truth.

    Whatever else you might think of me, take the above as the whole truth and nothing but.
     
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  22. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    I've taken ''Karen'' to mean someone who is oblivious to her white privilege (along with her obnoxious attitude that coincides with it), and it's a means of calling out such behavior. So, it's not really a slur or racist to call someone a ''Karen,'' as much as it is calling out behaviors that some white women display, that drip of white privilege. As Bells points out, someone who is ''Karen-ing'' isn't a victim, she is more likely the aggressor.
     
  23. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    The problem is, it's a caricature - a stereotype. Whenever you put a label on a box and just start throwing people you've never even met into it, you're not doing any good, you're doing harm.


    Consider the analogy to "snowflakes" - a reference to bleeding-heart liberals in America. You see a repost of a repost of repost online about some "snowflake's" complaints - so that any real context is lost - and you can simply throw them whole in the box labelled "snowflake." That does not help anyone.

    As John Cleese said, of "snowflakes": "Yes I've heard this word. I think sociopaths use it in an attempt to discredit the notion of empathy."

    Stereotyping people you've never met, based on twelfth-hand hearsay, is never a good thing.


    Even if Bells were right about its origin being rooted in racism (and there is some evidence she hasn't done her homework - see post 55) - a cutesy meme that makes others smile wryly and repost on Facebook is not going to help that cause.

    An issue of racism, sexism and classism should not be portrayed glibly - it should be dealt with seriously. A "funny" meme that's ostensibly about racism, sexism and classism is teaching people to be glib about racism, sexism and classism.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2020

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