Religion and women.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Jan 12, 2021.

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  1. Bells Staff Member

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    Your persistence in declaring the women you have discussions with on this site - we can only go by what we experience and observe in our dealings with you here - as being "emotional" is a giant tell..

    By which I mean men who have issues with women or have specific stereotypes about women or how we should behave, always resort to the 'you're being emotional' or 'you're simply being irrational' type of argument.

    Each time.

    Without fail.

    The reason for that is simple.

    It is an attempt to silence us. You do it all the time. We don't fit into your stereotype. Remember your comments earlier about men and emotions? You have specific and set stereotypes about how men and women should behave.

    Ergo, we must be emotional and irrational and your gaslighting begins.

    The irony is that the very women you have accused of being emotional in this thread have actually not been emotional. You, on the other hand, have.

    That breed of sexism feeds misogyny. It is all connected.

    This constant 'you're simply being emotional' argument is not new. You aren't the only one to resort to it on this site, nor will you be the last.

    In other words, your demands that we are being emotional because we dare to object to your views, is simply what you do.

    If you can't answer or if you know we are correct, you ignore us entirely and pretend we don't exist. Hence the gaslighting. You pepper this with accusations of our being emotional because we are women and in doing so, you sadly try to suggest that as a result, our opinion should not matter.. This is, by every definition, sexist. Misogyny is fed by sexism. Such as the manner in which you conduct yourself here.

    It is how you operate on this site and have done so for years.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Sexism typically has a source. Whether in your case it is due to misogyny, or indoctrination by a sexist religion, or an attitude learned by example, or some combination of those, doesn't really matter.

    You appear to be proud of your sexist views and attitudes - at least proud enough to publish them and to try to defend them (weakly) on a public forum, albeit one in which you're safely anonymous.

    Instead of listening to the women who are telling you how your posts are coming across, your assumption is that they must be wrong. Moreover, you assume you can brush them off with accusations that they are being "emotional", while claiming that you're supremely rational.
    Understand this, Jan: your empty words of self-defence do nothing to hide away the obvious conclusions that every reader takes away when they read your descriptions of your ideal model of human society, in which women are subordinated to the role of servants of men and carriers of "progeny", with men "heading" them, lording it over them like entitled little kings.

    That sounds a lot like the "I'm not racist. I know lots of black people." excuse.

    Maybe you could make your point better if you could honestly explain how your family life works. Do you "head" your wife and your daughters? Does your wife work in paid employment outside your home? Isn't it her role to provide for you and the family at home? Does she do the cooking and the cleaning? Do you? Does your family maintain the appropriate religious retreat space for you in your home?

    Is your wife too emotional? Does she - is she allowed to - complain that you're too rational?

    What about your daughters? Are they, or will they be, allowed to have jobs and independent lives, or have you/do you plan to arrange marriages for them to suitable men for whom they can keep house and bear progeny?

    If your own family life is inconsistent with the set of roles you have prescribed for women in this thread, why is that? Are you a hypocrite?
    ----

    By the way, Jan, its very telling that your response to the accusation that you're a misogynist was not "I'm not a misogynist", but rather "Show me the proof". I've seen that pattern of response to many conclusions I have reached about you, when they've come too close to an uncomfortable truth that you don't want to admit.

    This isn't a court of law, Jan. Nobody here has to prove to a court that you're a man with archaic views about women that you absorbed from whatever source. It's sufficient for people to draw their own conclusions based on what you post, and interact with you on the basis that you most likely truly believe what you write, at least when you're not being obviously and deliberately evasive, which admittedly only accounts for a tiny percentage of the material you post.

    There are certainly some women who have been similarly indoctrinated - by their religion, their upbringing in a patriarchal environment, or by abusive men - to believe the exact set of lies you are telling here, Jan. They come to believe that they are less than men, that their place is to be subservient, that men know what is best for them, that emotions are a flaw - all of those sexist tropes you believe in.

    It is not a point in your favour that some people are sufficiently damaged to believe your lies.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Probably in response to this doozy:

    He's not the first, nor will he be the last, who has tried to argue that recognising that black people in America have fundamental human rights and freedoms is somehow or other detrimental to black people.. While alluding that it was better for black people when they had no rights.. Racists do it all the time.
     
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Unless, of course, they are "adulterated" by "impure" men. Perhaps the sort of men he calls out as the root of the crime problems in US cities. But he is NOT RACIST! Any more than he is sexist!
     
  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    No, you deserve to have your sexist, hateful views held up to scrutiny and ridiculed for the nonsense they are. Over time, as this is done enough, societal attitudes will change so that archaic patriarchal views like yours are no longer considered "normal". This is already happening in some quarters, but we have a very long way to go. This is one the aims of the feminist movement, by the way.

    The fact is, there are far too many men just like you to put you all in prison, Jan. For numerous reasons, such a "solution" would be entirely unworkable. It is far better to try to educate you - or better yet to educate the generation that comes after you, then to wait for you and your archaic views to die an ignominious (natural) death.

    You also said that an emotional man is "like a woman", with the obvious contextual implication that a man being "like a woman" is a bad thing. Moreover, following your reasoning, if emotion turns into irrationality, you're also saying that women are irrational. It is quite clear from the context of your posts in this thread that you think all your "arguments" are rational (and therefore good), while all arguments you disagree with can be dismissed because they are "emotional" (and therefore bad). Since women are emotional, they are, by nature, unable to make good arguments, and can be safely dismissed.

    That's such an arrogant, sexist view you have there, Jan. Your smug satisfaction with yourself in how you respond to women is equally repulsive.

    Of course, you've already made your dishonest excuses as to why you think you don't have to address any of this.

    wegs understood you from your first post here. There is nobody here who hasn't got you pegged, Jan.

    As noted previously, a real "tell" with you is that, by and large, you haven't "denied" any of the accusations made against you (maybe because your own words contradict any such denial). Instead, you merely require posters to prove it, in effect, which is just a time waster because you're already on the record.

    This is why women shouldn't have any real economic or political power, in your opinion? How enlightening.

    Your sexist assumption is an excuse you tell yourself to give yourself permission to ignore women whenever it suits you. "Oh, she's just being emotional." It disregards the intellect of women and creates a caraciture of a poor waif blinded by her feelings. You might pity her. You might listen to the way she is saying something, but listening to what she is saying would be pointless, because she can't be rational.

    I honestly pity your wife and your daughters, Jan. I hope you can learn and grow.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  9. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    ???

    That is just a spectacularly weird thing to say. You're constantly accusing others here of being "emotional" and suchlike, but surely you must possess some awareness as to how that reads?

    And I'm only quoting just that one bit 'cuz I'm lazy--plenty more demented crap where that came from.
     
  10. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. And when you're paroled, we can continue the discussion.


    No, of course not.

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  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    You’re true to form James.

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  12. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    You didn’t answer the question
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    Jan, such comments:

    Are horrendously racist.

    So much so, that one barely even knows where to begin to address it.

    Before the civil rights movement, "blacks" in America faced horrific conditions, segregation, lynchings, oppression, denial of access to education and healthcare, housing discrimination.. While this is still a problem, it is nowhere near what it was like pre-civil rights era.

    You are basically whining about the civil rights movement because post civil rights movement, there was an increase of single parent households?

    Seriously?

    And then the ubiquitous crime rates whine that inevitably follow when racists and bigots try to extol the virtues of denying black people their human rights.

    The thinking goes like this: The high rates of poverty and incarceration and low levels of educational achievement in black communities can be traced in part back to the high number of black babies born out of wedlock and subsequently raised in single-mother homes. It’s a patriarchal twist on the mythological magical Negro. Black fathers could supposedly stem the devastating effects of oppression imposed from the classroom to the workplace to the court system. If black men just showed up in the homes of their children — acted like men instead of boys — black families and communities would fortify themselves and our long-held problems would simply wither away.

    Of course, there are studies that show that children who grow up in two-parent households perform better in school, are less likely to commit crime and have higher future earning potential. What these studies often don’t take into account is the impact of depressed wages, chronic unemployment, discriminatory hiring practices, the history of mass incarceration, housing segregation and inequality in educational opportunity, not just on family structure but on the resources available to black families to produce results similar to their white counterparts.

    And there are other problems with romanticizing the family structure. Black nuclear families have been torn apart since the days of slavery, and since then we have also reimagined the family structure. Where the biological parents haven’t been available, aunts and uncles, grandmothers and grandfathers, and a host of family friends and play cousins have stepped in to do the work of raising children. Today, as prison removes more and more black men from their homes, we do the same.

    To say that these other family formations are inherently deficient because there isn’t a father is to say no one else is capable of providing adequate love to a child, while also teaching the children who grow up without that idealized nuclear-family model that their lives are somehow wrong. Raised to believe that they missed something vital, it’s no surprise if children without fathers in their homes have more behavioral problems. And that families with women-led households are more likely to live in poverty speaks less to the necessity of fathers and more to the fact that a single income is no longer sufficient to support a family in this country, that our economy undervalues the work of women and that outside child care is a prohibitively expensive luxury. An economic shift to real living wages for women’s labor and a total societal investment in the well-being of all children would solve a number of the problems we think are only alleviated by fathers.
    [https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-dangerous-myth-of-the-missing-black-father/]


    Racism and bigotry is a horrendous cycle.

    You perpetuate it by spouting racist rubbish.
     
  14. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    • Please do not troll. Review our site posting guidelines before posting again.
    So how are they misogynistic?
    Where is the hate, prejudice, or discrimination against women?

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    Why did you accuse me of it?
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    She's already told you why:

    Perhaps you should actually read what she says, instead of being sexist and simply telling her she's being emotional while asking her the same question repeatedly..
     
  16. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I did.
    She didn’t say why she accused me of hatred toward women and girls.
    Where is the hatred expressed in any of my posts? Let’s see the quotes

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  17. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    You put women down in this thread, dismiss our comments because we’re women and gaslight. That looks like you have issues with women - you don’t know how to interact on a level of equity with women because you categorize responses from women as emotional ...discarding them.

    That looks like prejudice to me. That’s what misogyny also is - a prejudice towards women therefore you treat them with disregard right out of the gate. You’re the emotional one btw. lol

    Anyway, it is what it is. You’re likely a product of a patriarchal upbringing where your dad put your mom down - maybe overtly, maybe subtly. Misogyny and sexism are learned behaviors.
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    She told you exactly how she felt and most importantly, how you behaved towards her.

    Numerous times.

    For example:

    Your repeated demands for links, even when links are provided, the same as your repeated demands for explanations when they have already been provided..

    It's trolling. Pure and simple.

    It's how you avoid things. You do it all the time.

    You do label her and myself as "emotional" and "irrational".. You have repeatedly made comments about how women are emotional, etc. You do address women in a very condescending and patronising manner in this thread. You stereotype us and our behaviour to fit into how you believe women should be behaving.

    Your comments about the role of women in society, in the household, reeks of misogyny and sexism, particularly when taken in light of your reminders that Eve was created to be Adam's servant - the supposed first woman was never an equal, but a servant or slave of the first man..

    The same applies to your comments about single mothers, and how children raised by single mothers fare worse because they lack a man in the house - the male figure and 'head of the household'.. Ignoring the reality that the reason children in single mother households often fare worse is because women face discrimination in society - particularly in regards to employment and housing and the discrimination is even worse if the woman is black..
     
  19. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    You think being a full time mother an insult to a woman?
    Or that a women is better equipped than a man when it comes to nurturing, is an insult?
    If none of the above, can you explain why you think I hate women?
    The comment you made as a response to post 82, could hardly be dismissed.
    Where did I state that women are inferior to men? You have dismissed a bunch of my comments, which is why I’m still trying to find where you get your ideas from.
    But you seem reluctant, and only prepared to make accusations.
    But I don’t have issues with women, or I don’t discriminate against them because they are women. And you can’t show where I have. You post a bunch of quotes that say nothing toward hating women, or discarding them.
    What you said in that response was untrue, s as no unrelated to the comments I made, and still haven’t explained why you believe it to be true.
    Why?
    Lol!!
    And that’s final!
    You have spoken?
    Judge, jury, and executioner.

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  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    wegs

    What are your thoughts on this verse

    Timothy 2:5-11 - Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    ...here is a quote from Buddha

    In one conversation, the Buddha states, “Of all the scents that can enslave, none is more lethal than that of a woman. Of all the tastes that can enslave, none is more lethal than that of a woman. Of all the voices that can enslave, none is more lethal than that of a woman.

    ...what are your thoughts?
     
  22. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    ^^ Incoming avalanche lol

    I'll think on it, and get back to you.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    They have been listed several times for you here.
    Because you post misogynistic things.
    She didn't. She accused you of prejudice towards them.
    Not at all. But saying " . . . so they should stay at home and be mothers, and the man should be the head of the family" is.
    Again, no. It's what you conclude from that that's misogynistic.
    I have listed three issues you have with women. You have a SERIOUS issue with women boxing, for example.
    No need for your emotional drama displays.
     
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