I hear Tony! shouting.. "God does not lie, he is perfect and pure of heart!!! " The bible says that god causes some people to lie. In one bible story god wants to make a king do something, and asks some of the spirits there in heaven how it can be accomplished. (So much for omniscience!) One spirit volunteers to lie to the king via his prophets. God thinks it's a good idea and sends the spirit to do it. Later, the bible tells us: _________________________________________________ 1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also, go forth, and do so. _________________________________________________ So god tells a spirit to go and lie. (umm maaahh ...that nawty scoundral) This is done at the specific request of God. The Lord put the lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets, says the bible. So the prophets were indeed possibly getting information from a divine source and repeating it, but what they were repeating were lies....the lies of GOD!!! ...................................................................................................... The Bible also says that God's word can be trusted: ___________________________________________________ Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. ___________________________________________________ But, the verses below suggests the opposite is true. Did God really deceive people and cause some prophets to lie, or were the Bible writers mistaken? 1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. Jeremiah 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. ___________________________________________________ Ok now i have shown you that God lied, and I have shown you that he deceived. And how is it possible that your almighty God lies, and deceives, yet commands your faith be true unto him only? please ...take a deep breathe...chill out ..and answer this thread in a clear, precise and related manner. Cheers RazZPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ps: I would like to thank: Doug Krueger and Joseph Francis. Alward
razz, Sorry, but it seems your pals have steered you wrong concerning those passages from 1 Kings. The story about the false prophets, the lying spirit and God* holding counsel with angels was used by the prophet Micaiah after he had delivered the truth in the name of the Lord, which was not accepted well. 1 Kings 22:19-23 was a literary device used by the prophet Micaiah as a last resort to try to prevent Ahab from foolheartedly going to fight against Ramoth-gilead. Since Ahab did not believe Micaiah when he spoke the truth, Micaiah decided to use the literary device in the hopes that Ahab would relate to it better and not go to fight Ramoth-gilead.
Sorry, razz, but you're being steered in the wrong direction once again. It's not my opinion. If you don't believe me, then go back and read those excerpts in context. King Ahab was is God's* favor at the time. The truth from the Lord that day, about whether or not Ahab should go to fight Ramoth-gilead, can be found at 1 Kings 22:17 which reads: So Micaiah said: "I see all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd, and the Lord saying, 'These have no master! Let each of them go back home in peace.' " The truth did not please Ahab, the King of Israel, because number one, he really wanted to fight and, number two, there were a few hundred other so-called prophets (yes-men) who were telling Ahab what he wanted to hear. The prophet Micaiah knew from God* that if Ahab fought, he would surely die, so, once Micaiah realized that Ahab did not take the word from God* well, he took it upon himself to tell the literary story about God sending a lying spirit to deceive the other prophets who had been telling Ahab to go and fight. Oh, and guess who died in the battle?
and the deceipt? Jeremiah 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
razz, Jeremiah 4:10 is a declaration made by false prophets who are blaming God* for their own deception. Jeremiah 20:7 was not a statement of fact. It was a cry from Jeremiah during a period of despair, when he was so terrified that he resorted to blaming God* and wishing that he had not been born.
Razz, It is good to see that you are studying the biblical text, because through study, you will gain more understanding. What’s foolish about your conclusions, is your intention. It seems that you want to discredit God, by trying to prove that He is a liar and a deceiver. Why you should wish to do this is beyond me. First of all you do not understand how God works, you see things only from your own limited experience, which means your understanding is imprfect. ‘If’ God is ‘perfect,’ how can you understand him with imperfect senses. If you had children and one of them decided to go off the rails, (so to speak) because he/she didn’t want to abide by your rules and regulations, how would you deal with the situation, especially if real love is involved. If he/she, lets say became hooked on crack cocaine and the life-style that goes with it, would you a) stop them having it altogether b) let them have it under your guidance c) take some instructions from people who have been through this experience and now wish to put this experience to some good work by helping others. If you are able to understand this scenario from a loving percpective, then you are on the road to understanding the point of God and His religion. It is based purely on love. As far as the taking of life goes, that is a situation we bring upon our selves. “To every action there is an opposite and equal reaction” The above quote applies to every single action that one performs. So if I kill someone, then I have to be killed, that is natures law, and it just doesn’t apply to human beings, it applies to all life. The universe which is made up of gross and subtle matter, is destructable and it is therefore pointless trying to settle forever in it. If you rent an apartment, you would be very foolish to spend time and money on lavish décor or reconstruction, because you could get kicked out anytime and thus waste good money. This body is like an apartment for the soul, which is eternal. The soul at some stage will be kicked out of the bodily apartment and based upon his actions, he will either get another apartment or attain his original spiritual identity and enjoy eternity with God. This is what reincarnation is. God is not concerned with the destructable material body, He is concerned with the actions performed by it, under the direction of you the eternal soul (you) within, the animator of the body. That’s the part that belongs to God. This body is here to act, and it is in the actions that decide ones next life. Love Jan Ardena.
What an easy explanation..... wowww i stand corrected Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Wouldnt want to miss quote the bible now would IPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Anyone else might think i did it deliberately to make a point! I mean after all there is only ONE way to read the bible, and there is definately no way that religious buffs on this forum ever take the bible out of context to make a point. or do they? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Cheers RazZ
At it again. razz Your point is noted, but I must say I have heard this arguement before in online chatrooms using very similar phrases and scriptures. Maybe this is where you got the idea. I have spoken to you before in other forums and know you to be keen of mind, and competative. Ive watched you allow others to make fools of themselves then swoop in for victory, very amusing to watch. Yes it is true, SOME church going citizens do use the Bible in an un-ethical fashion, but in general it is discouraged. I have seen and heard passages from the Bible, twisted to mean the opposite of their original intent on many occassions. However this act is not always deliberate, although, unfortunately on occassions, deciept is the direct intent for whatever reason. This particular forum thrives on out of context scriptures, both by religious and Atheiests alike. How one percieves the Bible In the first place makes little difference it would seem. Those who believe in its origins and Honesty and those who are against the Bibles Authentisity and honesty will both utilise the Bibles value as proof and valid arguement both for an against the religious debate. I am glad you brought this particular issue to light in the fashion you did, for Im not sure without your example, many would believe how easy it is to manipulate the word of God for our own ends.
Mungo I vaguely remember the name, but yes it is possibly we have spoken before, I think at one of the world forums online. ( dont think im rude i talk to lots of people so sometimes i forget names) I was hoping Tony1 would bite, he is generaly quite up to date on the scriptures, so i knew he would catch the misconception. I am just sick of people not using the forums as intended and deliberated as you say " mainipulate " facts to fit what ever tangent they are currently selling. This is why i started this thread. I feel without genuine HONEST religious and athiest imput creating a valid arguement, nothing can be learned from such pointless exercises. I am here to learn and expand my knowledge and points of view, although that is not allways aparent to others i do take note when a theory or idea i have is trashed and shown to be in fault. Sometimes i deliberately push an idea, just for the hell of it to see what happens. Cheers RazZ Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
*Originally posted by razz I hear Tony! shouting.. "God does not lie, he is perfect and pure of heart!!! "* You do? *The bible says that god causes some people to lie. ... So god tells a spirit to go and lie. * Yes. What did you think a lying spirit was supposed to do, play canasta? *The Lord put the lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets, says the bible. So the prophets were indeed possibly getting information from a divine source and repeating it, but what they were repeating were lies....the lies of GOD!!!* You can't read very well, can you? "the lies of the LYING SPIRIT" *The Bible also says that God's word can be trusted: But, the verses below suggests the opposite is true. Did God really deceive people and cause some prophets to lie, or were the Bible writers mistaken? 1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. Jeremiah 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.* You complain because I'm sarcastic. Well, guess what? God does something similar. You want to believe lies? No problem, science has been carefully prepared by lying spirits. It's a very coherent-looking delusion, based on the resistance of man to truth. You want to hear what you want to hear? No problem, you will hear what you want to hear. *Ok now i have shown you that God lied, and I have shown you that he deceived. And how is it possible that your almighty God lies, and deceives, yet commands your faith be true unto him only?* What do you think "almighty" means? Second, pay attention to what I say... You get to hear what you want to hear. God isn't going to withhold what you want from you. You want lies, you get lies. You want to be deceived, you get to be deceived. It's a piece of cake. *Originally posted by Mungo This particular forum thrives on out of context scriptures* And, of course, you have the correct context. Why, I can't understand why the world doesn't understand that! It's so simple! Mungo has the correct context! *Originally posted by razz I was hoping Tony1 would bite* Sure, why not?
I wonder if Tony even got the point! But hey each to their own, Tony makes my point for me. Quote out of context, and make your own conclusions to suit yourself. Why take the post as it was meant when it can be used as another soap box. You did not need reply to the original text Tony1 a simple ... "Yes i see your point " would have sufficed, as I allready admitted, i was taking out of context and why i did it. Have a lovely day Tony Cheers RazZPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
