View Full Version : how can you tell?
I've seen a lot of people claim "God spoke to me" or something similar, how do you know?
I like to watch scifi shows on TV, and a lot of very powerfull beings are shown there, like "Q" from star trek, these beings can usually do whatever they want, assume any shape, pretty much do "magic".
How do you know that it is God who speaks to you and not some powerfull being playing an elaborate game with a primitive race for it's entertainment or otherwise.
If I could do the "tricks" Q does i could easily be considered a god if i choose to, all I would have to do is speak to a couple of primitive beings in an elaborate "magic" way and call myself god.
If I did the same and called myself Q I would "only" be an alien and not worth the worship.
I'm looking forward to your input..
[This message has been edited by miztic (edited December 13, 1999).]
12-14-99, 02:55 AM
I'm sorry to be the one that has to inform you of this but everything you see on tv isn't true. Unless, of course, its on tbn :)
Your question can't be disproven 100% but neither can the claim that your not a person,
but a monkey who typed this. You got sent to the lab for stealing bananas in the local zoo where you previously took up residence. Knowing the cruel torture that awaited you you decided to escape from your cage and managed to do so. You picked the lock to an office with a staple you found on the floor and managed to boot up a computer and get on the internet. Then through some miraculous process you got to this board and posted an entire message pertaining to religious debate that was pretty coherent. All this by just randomly slamming on the keyboard with one hand while you scrated your armpits with the other. This little story may be fun for imaginative purposes but we all know this isn't the case.
Whats a possible motive for some q type being playing tricks on us. What do we have to offer besides love? How did we get here in the first place. Is q a being of our universe of did he create it. Biblical phrophets see visions from God. If this q stuff is true then they are really seeing visions from him so he can see the future. This means he has extra dimensions of time. Hmmmm? A being who transcends space and time and can do all sorts of miraculous things? Sounds a lot like my definition of God....
Are these tricks that q does possible outside of tv land? In utter words, do they violate the laws of physics?
[This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited December 13, 1999).]
12-14-99, 04:38 AM
I'm sorry to tell you, but just because you believe something doesn't make it true. And thanks for the wonderful example from the worthless analogy department. You cannot compare something we can define with something we cannot. Miztic raised a very good question and you claim it is wrong just because he offended your religious sense.
What do we have to offer besides love? A hell of a lot, let me tell you. Love is just one emotion among many, and not even an action.
Oh, and I found it extremely humourous that you were commenting on the violations of the laws of physics. (aside) Also, why was it neccesary to give that cutting remark about tv not being true? He wasn't saying he thought that was what happened, he was postulating a scenario and trying to get a response to it. I think you know that. If thats the case, I'd suggest examining the motives for saying it.
The bottom line is that they don't. Whatever doubt they have, they forcibly bury under visions of happiness and confidence. Whether they are delusional or simply misinterpreting certain events is dependent on the person. Of course I am generalizing here, but then that is the basis of faith. When questioned about it, most say something akin to 'You're just denying god and accepting satan!' or 'You're not really trying!'. It reminds me an awful lot of third graders on a playground saying 'You're not COOL enough to know OUR secret.'
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with somebody having faith, but the moment they declare their theistic views right and others' wrong, they become an impairment to society.
There is a case precedent for the idea of a superior race acting as gods. The Aztecs believed that Cortez was a god. In fact, he totally fulfilled one of their prophecies of the return of Quetzalcoatl. When Cortez learned about the legend, he played it up, hell-bent on conquest. What's to say an alien race hasn't heard our myths and may decide to play one up, hell-bent on conquest? Remember, the explorers came first, then came the Conquistadores. We all know what happened after that.
One word. Demons.
Ok, I lied. Of course I just can't keep it to one word. God speaks to your heart. He doesn't fly into your bedroom at night, and wisk you away to see the dali lama or for a visit with John Lennon or whatever.
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 14, 1999).]
12-14-99, 05:15 PM
Ok, suppose some nearly omnipotent being spoke to your 'heart' as a joke. How would you know the difference? Please don't dodge his question again.
I'm not dodging the flippin' question already! Dag. The way I see it, our whole lives are lived with a little devil sitting on one shoulder, and a little angel on the other. If you're aware of what "the flesh" is, then you recognize it. If you're aware of what the Holy Spirit is, then you recognize it. Ever just go ahead and do something that you just knew deep inside was wrong? But you know, you rationalized it somehow, maybe with the help of a few friends for some extra buy-in. Why do you think that happens?
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"
12-14-99, 11:52 PM
Your inquiry is valid. I think, as a rule, if you hear an audible voice, your first prayer should be for a good doctor that can prescribe medication. I may be wrong, but, as I understand it, God has completely given out His Word in the Bible. That being said, let me tell you that God will make His messages known to you beyond the shadow of a doubt. Though He can, He is not limited to communicating with you in words. More likely, He will send someone your way who is obedient to Him and mature enough to follow through. However, if you are not one of His, meaning that you have not trusted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, I wouldn't go looking to get any special memos from God anytime soon. There's still the extremely pressing matter of sin debt that needs to be dealt with first. What you seem to be looking for is a quantifiable marker that says this is God speaking. Being humans, we have a difficult enough time knowing that love is communicating between us and that special someone that holds our affections. Love, in just one of its aspect, is a matter of communication that man deals with daily and can't even get a grip on. Moreover, neither God, nor any of His actions can be totally grasped and quantified by man. If you want to know the person that's talking to you, you must first get to know that person's voice. Does a man without a physical tongue in his mouth have a voice? Yes! Weather he signs his language, writes it down, or passes it to you in another man's mouth, he has a voice. If you personally know that man, you could read hundreds of documents and know the only one that contains his written voice or hear hundreds of messages and know the one that is truly his. This is only true because you first know the man himself. That's the key to knowing a memo from God from anything else. God does not use tricks as "Q" does. However, God is consistent and uses what you could call a game plan. Typically, if there is anything that is getting between you and God, providing that you are one of His own, He WILL remove it. Be it your pride, your money, your anything, God tends to bring you to a place where you are willing to listen before He will bother to speak to you. All the while, He will still provide for you and do all the things that He promises in His Word. He does talk to the hearts of His children and performs miracles according to His good will. Never, will you find His actions mischievous.
Though accurate, you were just a bit harsh there buddy. I've read some of your former posts and you do seem to love God. I hope to have time for some good discussions about Christ with you.
The single most unifying point of all of God's examples of Love clearly states that real Love will always seek the best good of its focus. God makes it clear that He is Love and that He does Love us all. God is always our best good. Love is an action.
Hi there. It's been a long time. It's nice to see that you're still here.
With all the Love God has given me to give to you,
12-15-99, 12:48 AM
I think, as a rule, if you hear an audible voice, your first prayer should be for a good doctor that can prescribe medication.
If I were one who allowed myself to be limited by the "normal" or by fear of the ridicule of others or by others who profess to know what "can't" happen, then I would agree with you. However, I am not. I am comfortable enough with my sanity to trust my senses and to realize that when something that powerful happens, it is happening for a reason. If this happened to you ISDAMan, that is, if you did hear an audible voice you might think differently.
The following are excerpts from my recent discussion with Searcher on this very subject. (Just prior, Searcher had been questioning my acceptance of a visit from God who instructed me to "Spread the word. It is not too late. All things can be forgiven. Behold the Son. Through Him, all good things will come."):
..."What if" you were to hear an audible voice which told you where your missing child was... would you be comfortable enough with yourself to trust your senses and act on what you heard (even if it meant being subject to the ridicule of others when you have to explain how you found your child)? Or, would you allow yourself to be limited by the lies (or mistaken belief) of others who have always told you that these types of things just don't happen... and, as a result, would you NOT act because of these externally-imposed limitations?
"What if" you were at a New Year's Eve celebration and a couple at your table had a loud argument which made everyone in your company uncomfortable... and the man left... and you heard everyone else saying that it was over and that they were glad he left... BUT, you heard an audible voice which told you and noone else that the man was going to get a knife... again, are you comfortable enough with yourself to know that you are perfectly capable of discerning real from imagined? Do you trust your senses enough to believe and act upon what you heard by informing others and by being on guard when he returns? Or, would you allow yourself to limited by what others have told you is impossible and/or intimidated by the fear of ridicule?
"What if" you were visited by the soul of a deceased family member who gave you a specific message to deliver to another family member, a message that made absolutely no sense to you... would you trust your senses enough to "know" that the experience was real and deliver the message? Or, would externally-imposed, limited belief systems and fear of ridicule cause you to let the message die with you?
I really don't know what perspective your answers will be coming from because I do not know what your actual experience or lack of experience with (let's call it) "the paranormal" has been... but, I would like to know that, too... What has been your experience with "other than what is considered normal" senses/dimensions and how did you react to these experiences?
Yes, I have had my share of paranormal experiences, and when I get one of those warnings, I do my best to heed it. It has kept me out of trouble many times in my life. The problem in my case is that they aren't audible, making it very difficult for me to distinguish them from my own thoughts, so I may be a bit slower to respond than you. If I ever received audible messages about my safety or the safety of others, I would certainly pay attention and respond as directed, until I found a reason not to (e.g., if those giving me the audible messages turned out to be lying to me most of the time and my reactions to those messages caused me more harm than good). That doesn't mean that I would fall for everything I was told by this same voice, hook, line and sinker. I would certainly consider that I might have been set up for those experiences just to make me trust "them", whoever "they" might be (I am really not a very trusting person, in case you hadn't figured that out by now).
Then, I responded:
Thanks for your response. Although our experiences are somewhat different, I am glad to see that you have experienced other senses/dimensions.
It might seem like a lot to those who have never had such experiences but, in reality, my experiences of such have been few and far between. They have always been powerful, accurate and fruitful messages and, of course, I am astounded at first when they happen but thus far, I have never had any reason to truly doubt them. They are usually crisis-induced and come with a sense of urgency, including the message from God.
Had I not acted immediately in the first example, my daughter would probably have been taken over many state lines to a remote area by a would-be kidnapper. This experience happened about thirteen years ago.
Had I not been aware and not acted immediately when the situation presented itself in the second example, a woman would have been stabbed, possibly to her death. This experience happened more than twenty years ago.
Had I not delivered the message in the third example, I have been told by the family member that they would have continued to spend the rest of their life in a state of mental torture. This experienced happened around twenty years ago.
Given God's message, "Spread the Word. IT IS NOT TOO LATE (emphasis added)..." I sense another crisis which is in a relative urgent state and in need of addressing. This experience happened about four years ago.
These above are brief summaries of my actual experiences. I hope that I have given you enough information though, to be able to ask you to ponder this with an understanding of the seriousness of each situation... If you, too, truly had such experiences with audible voices, how would you have reacted?
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 14, 1999).]
12-15-99, 01:11 AM
What happened, Truestory? You okay?
12-15-99, 01:21 AM
Hello Searcher... Thanks. I'm good. Why do you ask?
Oh, I think I figured it out... I posted an incomplete response to ISDAMan a while ago (I had to leave my PC abruptly - no biggie) just so it wouldn't be lost... Sorry!!!
[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 14, 1999).]
12-15-99, 02:00 AM
If happen to you ISDAMan, that is, if you did hear an audible voice you might think differently.
That could be. An evangelist and musician, along with his family came to my church last Sunday evening. He told the story of how God performed a miracle so that his daughter could undergo a needed medical test. I could immediately relate because of three obvious miracles God had performed in my life. I posted one here in the past to FyrStar.I'll include it at the bottom of the page. I can say that He has shown me things in dreams and has simply put knowledge into my head that I had no way of knowing and could never explain. Yet, no audible words. Now, I'd just also like to mention that I'm no Christian superstar. The only thing that makes me special is that I trust in Christ. God has made the other things clearly known as being from Him. I trust that if He ever wanted to say something in an audible fashion, He would make it just as clear. I think that we benefit from a lack of audible messages in that we must remain vigilant and thinking about the ways of God so that we will know His messages from out of the crowd. As far as "normal" goes. God has created a whole universe of normal for us to see. All things unusual can be measured against that Great Work He has done. Satan too has some supernatural powers. God's supernatural acts may defy the normal, but, Satan's will pervert the normal. The normal is a gift from God. I don't really think I need to say much on the fact that I'm not one given to fear or concern with ridicule. If you only knew me. So, I stand by my statement. I'm aware that my body and my brain are flesh. Both are capable of malfunction. People that hear voices are more common than you might think. Conversely, if you have ever heard a voice that was not normal and did not pervert the normal, it would only be you that could substantiate it's authorship. I, myself, would be in no place to contradict you.
Love and Prayers,
Below:Part of a long letter to FyrStar
Miracles, the very acts of God, can be seen and experienced. Do I think that many normal, yet, unusual things get passed off as miracles? Yes! No matter weather it's a miracle or not, if it's provided for you, it's a provision from God and He should be thanked for it. Here's something real I can point to when I was nine years old. I had one of those old style dirt bikes where the breaks were tied in with the peddles and it came equipped with a long banana seat. Anyway, like every other boy, I liked to show off my speed and strength. I let another boy, Poppy, ride. I'd race up from behind, as he peddled his heart out, grab hold of the looped bar at the back of this banana seat, and yank as hard as I could. I was amazed to see him peddle like a cartoon character and get nowhere. This went on for several minutes. Then, on that faithful moment when I'd pool together all my talents, something went drastically wrong. My ankle instantly twisted. The pain was like noting I had ever before experienced even without attempting to place my foot on the ground. Needless to say, trying was no help at all. I instantly hopped into another friend's first floor apartment. Of course, I was crying and whining as any little nine year old boy would do. I threw myself down on the bed in the back room and tried to get a good look at the damage. It was already beginning to swell and the slightest touch made me it feel as though it would explode. I could even feel the painful tension of the elastic in my tube socks adding unwanted compression. Everyone outside was too enamored with their own goings on to have paid full attention to me. I had paused to hop in place and tell my aunt that I had twisted my ankle, when she asked about my behavior, but, she, being only six years older than me and always at my house, was more like a big sister. She just went on with what she was doing. At this point, I knew that this was far beyond any simple twisted ankle I had ever known. Never before had I seen swelling and so quickly. It had to be sprained. Now's the point that I realized that it's not all that bad. I do have a way out of this mess. God, I knew, can do anything. So, all I said, looking up while crying and whining, was, "God, I don't know much about You, but, I do know that You can do anything. God, can you please fix my ankle?" Now, the most important thing wasn't the words I used or the fact that I was a child or that I came from A Christian household. In fact, my family and extended family had almost no contact with any church at all. The important thing was that I had been given a certain amount of truth and I believed. I had faith. To tell you the truth, I wish I has such unfettered and pure faith today. The human experience of life can take its toll on any relationship,... even that with God. I don't want you to think that God was obligated to do anything. His will is beyond my comprehension. The fact is that, for His reasons, He did. As I just looked up and waited, I kind of expected some kind of exciting event, the first thing that I noticed was that I was no longer crying. So, I touched my, now, dry cheeks in amazement. A bit stunned, I worked my way cautiously down to my ankle by hand. No pain from a slight touch. No pain from removing the sock. No pain from a heavier touch. No pain at all! I wrenched that bad boy around as much as I could to test it out. There was only one question that remained. Why was I still wincing and whining? I took some effort to try to calm down. It's just that with all the Thanking I was giving to God, I got even more excited. I had an almost unbelieving grin from ear to ear. I hopped on that ankle and there was not even the slightest sign that there had ever been a problem with it. There was no more swelling and no more pain at all. I got my foot gear back on and hot footed it back outside. Excitedly, and with all my fervor, I proudly and loudly recounted to everyone that, "God fixed my ankle!!! God fixed my ankle!!!" They laughed at me. Some paid no attention at all. I told them again, "Yes He did!!! God fixed my ankle!!!" They still laughed at me. They told me that I had imagined the whole thing. It didn't matter though. I knew a small bit of truth before. Now, through God's grace, I had more. Little did I know what He had in store for me down the road in life,... but that's another story. OK, so, what does this have to do with the lives of the average man? After all, everyone doesn't have these experiences. Well, to that I can say. This paints a perfect picture of what happens in the world. God does a great thing and people, the same that were too callas to care about anyone else but themselves in the first place, push it aside as assign it no value. They even throw up excuses against it. However, if I had come running out of the apartment complex, in the same way, only, this time yelling, "There's a man with a gun inside!!!", everyone would have paid attention and everyone would have believed me without question. Somehow, when you yell that there's a God that Loves you, it doesn't garner the same respect. No one ever wants to hear good news. Just watch your local news. Observe yourself for a while. When you hear that someone at work did something bad for personal gain, do you question it at all or do you accept it like most? When you hear that someone at work did something good for no personal gain, what's your honest reaction? The natural tendency of man is to turn away from God. That includes any good thing. Also, I just thought I'd throw in that it's only natural for this to compound itself. Just take a cross section of TV. shows in this coming season and compare them with ones from just five years ago. Keep going back by increments of five years and you can easily find an increase of bad and a decrease of good. I know. That was getting off just a touch. Though I'd throw it in though. Getting back. God can be directly experienced to every man on Earth through all that He has created, miracles and blessings, and His children whom it is that are supposed to show forth what He has done in their lives. I take great shame in saying that part of the reason that you have not experienced these truths is because many Christians of today have taken up with ideals not of God. I, at times, can be included. If a fireman decided not to show up for work one day, it may not have any impact on any civilians life. Then again, it might. I continually remind myself that if I am not serving God through directly helping others, I'm likely to be leaving someone out in the cold. If the world has no light it's not the world's fault. Christ said that Christians are the salt and light of the world. So, really, we have a good bit of blame to bare about it too.
[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 14, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited December 14, 1999).]
12-15-99, 04:10 AM
Well, God bless you, ISDMan.
12-15-99, 08:48 PM
My apologies miztic. I never meant to offend you. That whole tv line was a joke. Thats the reason I put a smile face at the end along with the tbn punch line. But, none-the-less I am sorry to you or anyone else I may have offended with my post.
"""""I'm sorry to tell you, but just because you believe something doesn't make it true. """""
Don't be sorry cause I agree with you. What I believe and what are facts are two different things. I may believe two plus two is five but that doesn't make me right. I can give you my opinion (what I believe) about certain things but I cannot change facts. Nor can I change evidence or draw silly conclusions from things that demand something I may not like.
"""And thanks for the wonderful example from the worthless analogy department."""
Maybe it does come from there but do you know where claims like "q" come from? They come form the 'pathetic metaphysical musings of an athiest who needs a reason to justify his nonbelief because deep down he knows God really exsists' department. These types of claims are disliked by a lot of people. You spend countless hours of reasearch on something and finally come to a consistent, cohesive, and rational conclusion and someone comes along with some 'what if' scenario that they don't really believe anyways just as an excuse and tries to undermine the entire thing. Some may actually believe this. But the majority who make these 'what if' statements probably do not. They do not have any merit nor do they produce any fruit. They are just excuses.
""""Miztic raised a very good question and you claim it is wrong just because he offended your religious sense.""""
Miztic? Was there really a miztic? How do we know for sure? Does california really exist? I never saw it. What if ...what if...ad absurdom!
""""What do we have to offer besides love? A hell of a lot, let me tell you."""
Like what? Love is the only thing I can think of that we can give that could provide a cohesive world view.
"""""Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with somebody having faith, but the moment they declare their theistic views right and others' wrong, they become an impairment to society.""""""
I guess, according to you, I am an impairment to society. I cannot hide the truth for the sake of political correctness. What good is a light if it cannot be seen?
"""""Oh, and I found it extremely humourous that you were commenting on the violations of the laws of physics."""""
Why is that? Would you mind explaining?
""""Whatever doubt they have, they forcibly bury under visions of happiness and confidence. Whether they are delusional or simply misinterpreting certain events is dependent on the person. Of course I am generalizing here, but then that is the basis of faith. When questioned about it, most say something akin to 'You're just denying god and accepting satan!' or 'You're not really trying!'. It reminds me an awful lot of third graders on a playground saying 'You're not COOL enough to know OUR secret.'
Yeah thats it. You got religious people pegged down pretty well.
12-16-99, 02:13 AM
What is it with you religious people and twisting words? Miztic never claimed that the 'Q' example was the case. He asked you a question. How do you know it is NOT the case? You are quick to devote yourselves to something you simply cannot prove.
Your 'what if' theory is also quite
irrational. Again you are comparing things that are provable with things that are not. These are only 'excuses', as you put it so shamelessly, while they can be disproven. In this case, they haven't been.
Next, you went on a little rant about how we know anything exists. Well ya know, if you really want me to, I'd be willing to drag you out to California, or hunt down miztic and show you. Can you do the same?
Once again, love is just an emotion. We have thousands of others. We can contribute those, or we can contribute something that actually makes a difference. Myself, I'm planning on taking some action to benifit mankind as a whole. Will they have to be satisfied with a sense that you 'love' them?
I do consider you to be an impairment to society. The theories you propagate as truth serve only to entrench mankind in intellectual darkness.
As a last thought, I'd like you to try a logical exercise regarding the last big section of text you quoted from my earlier post.
Without first assuming the existence of your god, am I still wrong?
12-16-99, 02:43 AM
"""""Miztic never claimed that the 'Q' example was the case."""""
When did I say he did? You seem to be quilty of doing the thing you asked the question about in the sentance before the one I quoted above.
"""How do you know it is NOT the case? """""
For the second time I said I CANNOT disprove it but I can show other theoies that are more logical and produce a more consistent world view.
""""Next, you went on a little rant about how we know anything exists. Well ya know, if you really want me to, I'd be willing to drag you out to California, or hunt down miztic and show you. Can you do the same?"""""
Gee, I guess you got me there. Oops, no you don't. Showing me miztic doesn't prove anything. It may have been an illusion. Maybe your a magician and got inside my head and put in some false reality to make me believe what you want.
Show me california and I can still say it doesn't exist. Maybe you drugged me while I was sleeping and slipped me into some virtual reality program that showed me some land that had california signs. You have no proven anything to me. California doesn't exist. You tried to trick me. Thats my claim and I'm sticking to it.
What if. What if. What if.
There is always an excuse.
"""Myself, I'm planning on taking some action to benifit mankind as a whole. """
And your doing this action out of love am I not correct?
"""""'Again you are comparing things that are provable with things that are not. """"""
Whats provable? What if...What if... What if...
Btw, I said this"""""""They come form the 'pathetic metaphysical musings of an athiest who needs a reason to justify his nonbelief because deep down he knows God really exsists' department. """""
That was not aimed at miztic. Twas a generalization.
""""We have thousands of others [emotions]. """"
Would you mind naming them for me? :)
""""""I do consider you to be an impairment to society. The theories you propagate as truth serve only to entrench mankind in intellectual darkness."""""'
I thought I was the salt of the earth? :(
""""""Without first assuming the existence of your god, am I still wrong?"""""
With that as an assumption the statement you made is somewhat logical. But the problem is your assumption is wrong and that makes your paragraph wrong beause it is based on your assumption being true.