Why would God create a world where pleasure was bad?
only a sociopath would do something like that, a loving god would want people to be happy and there for would encorage things which lead to pleasure.

Why would God create a world where pleasure was bad?
only a sociopath would do something like that, a loving god would want people to be happy and there for would encorage things which lead to pleasure.

This is why I always ask people to define their god. Pretty soon they either are giving it powers that show it is either a psychopath/sociopath or it doesn't have any control over our lives.

But if god does have control then yes it is a effing psychopath of the greatest order if we are to take the god of Abrahamic religions.

If one considers the universe god, then no. If one considers that god created our universe and moved on, then no.

So what god are we talking about ?

This is why I always ask people to define their god. Pretty soon they either are giving it powers that show it is either a psychopath/sociopath or it doesn't have any control over our lives.

But if god does have control then yes it is a effing psychopath of the greatest order if we are to take the god of Abrahamic religions.

If one considers the universe god, then no. If one considers that god created our universe and moved on, then no.

So what god are we talking about ?

Abrahamic god, the ancient greeks and romans KNEW that gods were sociopaths and just accepted it yet im tired of christans talking about "a loving god" who surposedly causes untold suffering AND forbids pleasure in his followers. That in itself is enough to class him as a antisocial personality disorder on the DSM-IV

I just I just don't know ? Lets do it again . God is metaphorical future Human . Like Marx could see . Super Man for the past and normal model of existence for the future . God is what we aspire to. It is attributes of God . You people know just about all or most of the names of god are descriptive don't ya . God is Great , God is Awesome, and all that . God is Love . I seen that in the bible to , Dw did you see that ? I saw that . This is why slups aspire to the roll , They will be gullible enough to swallow the hook . Like Jesus , He swallowed the hook and aspired . I don't agree with committing suicide and rising up as a vampire stealing the love of a parent from there child they call sinner. Making you drink his blood and eat his flesh . Does anybody understand Vampire culture out there . I feel so alone . You know you can't say his name , but we all know who he is. When the wolf is in the sheep's clothing you say his name loud and clear . I know some of you know. I seen your posts . You know who you are

The only way I can see it, is if life is all one big game/test for one human. Everything else is an illusion set to "test" this human.

Why would God create a world where pleasure was bad?
only a sociopath would do something like that, a loving god would want people to be happy and there for would encorage things which lead to pleasure.

Who said that . I heard the super preacher man part of the bible( said to be Solomon ) say " Enjoy the fruits of your labor" . What do you think the whole ritual of courting is all about ? Eat drink and be marry and all that good stuff . This is your portion in life the dead have no portion . Yeah that fuck Solomon he was a smart fucker . I think some of the things he said can be dis-proven , but a lot of what he said still makes good sense to Me. Like when your dead your dead . People don't seem to know that is in the Bible also . They like the sensationalized parts better . F--ck who don't like the action scenes when done well. Shit some of the battles are works of art when it comes to warfare. That Jeremiah character and the way he gained the higher ground was pure genius. I know a lot of people are drawn to revelations. Yeah that shit is like watching a sci-fi movie . Guys on white horses , Guys on black horses . Shit Sci-Fi western . Don't get any better if you ask me . Course I am prone to westerns being that I live in Good old Big Sky Montana . THE MOUNTAIN Of THe WORLD . God I love my State . To bad you all don't live here . I am trying not to gloat . It is hard cause Fuck am I the luckiest bastard in the world or what . I fucking live in Montana . Sorry for gloating . I know it is wrong . I can't help it cause I LOVE my state

Oh the sex the Bible , no one ever talks about that . Like did you know it was the custom to take your brothers wife , fuck her and get her pregnant if he died . You have to make sure his seed is past vicariously by you if he happened to die with out any kids . Now with the life expectancy and the amount of children in the families that my friend = a lot of fucking . See back then it was more about the survival of the human race . So the laws were Tailored for times . Jesus is the one that fucked up all the fucking that was going on . He proposed one wife for one husband . He was Mary Magdalene's stooge if you ask Me , But say la V she has an M.G. in her name so I like her . She was a very smart person ( not a fucking idiot) so she is O.K. with Me

Why would God create a world where pleasure was bad?
only a sociopath would do something like that, a loving god would want people to be happy and there for would encorage things which lead to pleasure.

What makes you think God doesn't encourage people do things that lead to pleasure?



Why would God create a world where pleasure was bad?

Do you mean "Why would God create a world in which people would not have the upper hand on deciding what is pleasurable and what isn't?" -?

Why would God create a world where pleasure was bad?
only a sociopath would do something like that, a loving god would want people to be happy and there for would encorage things which lead to pleasure.

the only reason that sin causes pleasure is because there's something seriously wrong with us. can't you tell?

god cares about the greater good and community. don't you see that sin does not? that it derives pleasure for one at the expense of others and the greater good? why isn't this obvious to you? why do you think the world is so fucked up and so many people suffer? don't you care?

What is a sin? What is considered sinful, lori?

What is a sin? What is considered sinful, lori?

what, you didn't see the movie? :rolleyes:

God released a film?

God released a film?

come on. you've never heard of the 7 deadly sins?

come on. you've never heard of the 7 deadly sins?

Lust isn't a sin, its apsolutly nessary to the survival of the species, its both our way to procreate and the way to hold parents together to raise the next generation. It is also vital to government policies such as effective land management. Without lust people wouldn't pair bond, they wouldn't sleep in the same bed and we would use much more land

Lust isn't a sin, its apsolutly nessary to the survival of the species, its both our way to procreate and the way to hold parents together to raise the next generation. It is also vital to government policies such as effective land management. Without lust people wouldn't pair bond, they wouldn't sleep in the same bed and we would use much more land procreation isn't lust

Lust isn't a sin, its apsolutly nessary to the survival of the species, its both our way to procreate and the way to hold parents together to raise the next generation. It is also vital to government policies such as effective land management. Without lust people wouldn't pair bond, they wouldn't sleep in the same bed and we would use much more land

translated...

"god gave me a penis, what do i need a brain for?"

come on. you've never heard of the 7 deadly sins?

Yeah, an invention of the Church, not directed by God or Jesus, so really, er, total BS.

This is why I always ask people to define their god.

I would be grateful if you'd take a look at 'The Honest Theist' thread, and see what you make of JamesR's attempts to define his 'God'.

Yeah, an invention of the Church, not directed by God or Jesus, so really, er, total BS.

Those are real human attributes fucking up the world every day. You're seriously going to tell me you can't identify things like greed, lust, and envy in yourself or the people around you? That's ridiculous.

You're seriously going to tell me you can't identify things like greed, lust, and envy in yourself or the people around you? That's ridiculous.

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying that these things are only considered bad by mortals. Your God allegedly gave you the Ten Commandments. That's it. That's all God told you not to do.

If we work under the atheist assumption, that God is all in the imaginary, then using psychology principles, God would be considered a projection stemming from the human unconscious mind.

A projection is sort of like an image within the imagination, that will overlay sensory data coming into our brain from our sensory systems. For example, one may come upon a Muslim who is a nice person in reality. If you got afraid and thought he was a threat, the different between the sensory reality of their being a nice person, and your perception of threat, is connected to an imagination overlay onto reality; projection. The projection can appear real. One may even think it is based on sensory data. But it is in the imagination acting as an overlay onto objective data.

Projection is useful because it can tell us things about unconscious dynamics within the individual. For example, the fear of threat, in the above example, might tell us how the unconscious mind was conditioned, so one can't be fully objective to certain hard sensory data.

If we assume God is/was a projection, since God is a collective abstraction, his specified nature would tell us things about the nature of the ancient unconscious mind. The God of the old testament was a paradox. He could be nice and then get very angry. That projection would reflect the mind of the ancient person. The ancient person could do good things, and then could go ballistic and kill without remorse. This bi-polar disorder, between what we might call good and evil may have been the norm in its day.

Later, if Jesus was also just part of the imagination, and was therefore also a projection, this reflects a evolutionary change within the unconscious mind away from the bi-polar disorder. The soft nature of his projection would reflect this change, and will tell us about the human mind. But not everyone changed, with the cruel who projected fear of the sheep, having a different type of disposition.

Religions with polytheism, if that was their God projection, would reflect multiple personality disorders as the norm for that culture. Today one may become very artistic, with the personality one way, yet fully focused. Tomorrow the next personality may become full of rage, ready for war and destruction. etc. Focus into specialty personalities can take specialization very fair; art, partying, war, etc. The real sensory data of the Christian sheep would have a bi-polar and/or multiple personality projection overlay, so now the sheep is a dragon to slay. That reflected the darkness in the unconscious minds of the cruel, who could not see the reality data underneath their projection.

The old testament has Satan, as the left hand man of God. Satan would try to influence God, who was himself a paradox of love then rage. Satan was the lord of the earth in ancient traditions. This projection has a connection to instinct or mother nature (satan was father nature to coin a phrase). This ancient composite projection reflected the ancient split bipolar personality with a instinctive twist. It must have been a scary time to live, where modern normal would be an anomaly.

I am precluding the option that God is/was real to narrow the subject. I am only focusing on the concept of projection to infer the nature of the ancient human personality, as a function of their god projection. They were not us in ancient clothing. It was more like a trip to the mental ward of today. The ancient pathology could give some the superhuman strength of a psychotic rage. Later jump into creativity skills that can sculpter, etc, Their gods sort of tell us about their unconscious compulsions.

By defining projections into collective terms for a culture, Gods applies to all. The unconscious mind becomes more collective, via the superego, and begins to gain group structure. The entire herd can see the fearful Muslim, who is actually nice based on hard data. The tale of the scary (but nice) Muslim encounter will seem very real, and be carried forward via the herd projection and expectation. The mind is complicated with projection only changing from Gods to other things.

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying that these things are only considered bad by mortals. Your God allegedly gave you the Ten Commandments. That's it. That's all God told you not to do.

i've gotten a lot more direction from god than that.

i've gotten a lot more direction from god than that.

The voice in your head ≠ God.

The voice in your head ≠ God.

that's your opinion, but the voice in my head is a lot smarter than you so...

anyhoo, the bible also offers more direction than just the 10 commandments.

Abrahamic god, the ancient greeks and romans KNEW that gods were sociopaths and just accepted it yet im tired of christans talking about "a loving god" who surposedly causes untold suffering AND forbids pleasure in his followers. That in itself is enough to class him as a antisocial personality disorder on the DSM-IV

Word.

'God' as most monotheists conceptualize him is, well, an industrial strength douchebag. ;)

God released a film?

Mel Gibson thinks he is the Christ. That is why he acts like he does . He can't help but think that . It is what his surroundings tell him . I know I am real familiar with the M.G. dream he lives in . He is about 20 clicks behind Me though . You can tell by his prejudices. It is like Lori 7 and her Mommy Dream . The outside world influences her thoughts and tells her she is the Mommy .

Oh Yeah God Gibson did create a movie , more than one

I am a sociopath . Good thing the wild beast is house broken

Word.

'God' as most monotheists conceptualize him is, well, an industrial strength douchebag. ;)

I am laughing . I am still laughing , I am still laughing

See I made the same mistake as Mel Baby when I was young . There was a girl who sat next to Me in a High school class and she was one lovely person of the opposite sex that made me have movement in the front of my pants . Oh yeah Mikey was in love at first sight . So I was a good little mormon well indoctrinated with the standard prejudiced of a good little conformist of the white persuasion and I say to her " The Jews Killed Jesus " Oh Shit no good loving coming Mikey's way . She was Jewish . She said " The Romans Killed Jesus not the Jews " and you know what it did make sense and not because I wanted her . Hell it was all about power structure of the day and we all know to well who had de power " Fuck nut expansionist Romans did if you still guessing

Is god a sociopath?

No. Not because he is not a sociopath but because he simply does not exist.

~String

that's your opinion, but the voice in my head is a lot smarter than you so...

Help you out in pub quizzes does he? Hey, with all that information at your fingertips, you should run for President! Or get a Nobel Prize!


anyhoo, the bible also offers more direction than just the 10 commandments.

Yeah, like wearing clothes of mixed cloth and eating shellfish being 'abominations' yet I'd wager you're guilty of both.

But God has commanded so very little, that' my point. Also you only have the word of one man that the 10 commandments came from God,... so they are a bit tenuous, don't you think?

No. Not because he is not a sociopath but because he simply does not exist.

~String

Steady on, you'll have JamesR bearing down on you with false logic if you say things like that.

Help you out in pub quizzes does he? Hey, with all that information at your fingertips, you should run for President! Or get a Nobel Prize!

or birth the kingdom of christ.




Yeah, like wearing clothes of mixed cloth and eating shellfish being 'abominations' yet I'd wager you're guilty of both.

But God has commanded so very little, that' my point. Also you only have the word of one man that the 10 commandments came from God,... so they are a bit tenuous, don't you think?

not when you have common sense no.

come on. you've never heard of the 7 deadly sins?

Sloth, Lust, Gluttony, Grumpy, Dopey, Sneazy, Ant, Dec, Pugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Dave, Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich?

not when you have common sense no.

Which way does your 'common sense' tell you to go on these matters then?

Any why is it in the bible, if it's to be ignored?

Which way does your 'common sense' tell you to go on these matters then?

Any why is it in the bible, if it's to be ignored?

Who said it's to be ignored? Common sense is an incorrect way to put it. Things seem obvious to me now that weren't always to me and aren't to others. Did you know that Christ also said not to worry about what you put in or on your body? I guess by common sense I mean being able to see the forest through the trees. I realize you're not looking to do that.

Who said it's to be ignored? Common sense is an incorrect way to put it. Things seem obvious to me now that weren't always to me and aren't to others. Did you know that Christ also said not to worry about what you put in or on your body? I guess by common sense I mean being able to see the forest through the trees. I realize you're not looking to do that.

Well, you just said Christ said it's to be ignored. Parts of the very same book that allegedly foretold his coming. Parts of the book he said he had come to fulfil.

You aren't making much sense.

God must be a sociopath to allow imperfections to exist.

If we work under the atheist assumption, that God is all in the imaginary, then using psychology principles, God would be considered a projection stemming from the human unconscious mind.

A projection is sort of like an image within the imagination, that will overlay sensory data coming into our brain from our sensory systems. For example, one may come upon a Muslim who is a nice person in reality. If you got afraid and thought he was a threat, the different between the sensory reality of their being a nice person, and your perception of threat, is connected to an imagination overlay onto reality; projection. The projection can appear real. One may even think it is based on sensory data. But it is in the imagination acting as an overlay onto objective data.

Projection is useful because it can tell us things about unconscious dynamics within the individual. For example, the fear of threat, in the above example, might tell us how the unconscious mind was conditioned, so one can't be fully objective to certain hard sensory data.

If we assume God is/was a projection, since God is a collective abstraction, his specified nature would tell us things about the nature of the ancient unconscious mind. The God of the old testament was a paradox. He could be nice and then get very angry. That projection would reflect the mind of the ancient person. The ancient person could do good things, and then could go ballistic and kill without remorse. This bi-polar disorder, between what we might call good and evil may have been the norm in its day.

Later, if Jesus was also just part of the imagination, and was therefore also a projection, this reflects a evolutionary change within the unconscious mind away from the bi-polar disorder. The soft nature of his projection would reflect this change, and will tell us about the human mind. But not everyone changed, with the cruel who projected fear of the sheep, having a different type of disposition.

Religions with polytheism, if that was their God projection, would reflect multiple personality disorders as the norm for that culture. Today one may become very artistic, with the personality one way, yet fully focused. Tomorrow the next personality may become full of rage, ready for war and destruction. etc. Focus into specialty personalities can take specialization very fair; art, partying, war, etc. The real sensory data of the Christian sheep would have a bi-polar and/or multiple personality projection overlay, so now the sheep is a dragon to slay. That reflected the darkness in the unconscious minds of the cruel, who could not see the reality data underneath their projection.

The old testament has Satan, as the left hand man of God. Satan would try to influence God, who was himself a paradox of love then rage. Satan was the lord of the earth in ancient traditions. This projection has a connection to instinct or mother nature (satan was father nature to coin a phrase). This ancient composite projection reflected the ancient split bipolar personality with a instinctive twist. It must have been a scary time to live, where modern normal would be an anomaly.

I am precluding the option that God is/was real to narrow the subject. I am only focusing on the concept of projection to infer the nature of the ancient human personality, as a function of their god projection. They were not us in ancient clothing. It was more like a trip to the mental ward of today. The ancient pathology could give some the superhuman strength of a psychotic rage. Later jump into creativity skills that can sculpter, etc, Their gods sort of tell us about their unconscious compulsions.

By defining projections into collective terms for a culture, Gods applies to all. The unconscious mind becomes more collective, via the superego, and begins to gain group structure. The entire herd can see the fearful Muslim, who is actually nice based on hard data. The tale of the scary (but nice) Muslim encounter will seem very real, and be carried forward via the herd projection and expectation. The mind is complicated with projection only changing from Gods to other things.

Dude you and I are starting to be on the same wave length . Yes , Consider even modern popular best selling books are of the same effect . Group consciousness by events in common in daily existence. The events happen to us all at about the same time by advanced information out lets . It might have taken decades for information silos to fall in ancient times and that trickle of information kept time and change in check , were as the information trickled through the communities at a much slower rate there by allowing more time for adjustment to the new improved ways. Not now though for information silos are falling at unbelievable rates of speed like the world has never seen . The Information age is changing human perception in a way that blows my friggen mind . The implications are massive. The Imagery of God is in hyper-speed change . Baking the mirror of the modern Man . Something don't feel right . It was funny as hell . So I hear that song on the radio and don't give it much thought , except I am singing the melody for it is catchy as hell can be . I go down in my basement to take a leak and what have you I hear a crash and I come out of the bathroom and my wifes full length mirror had fallen over and splintered glass every were . What a nightmare . Shit butt f--ck Me anyway , yet I am think of the song ! Thinking that song was talking to Me ! I am that bubble living Modern Man in the song that does not interact with my surroundings and this braking mirror is my wake up call to the message in that song . That singer broke my mirror , Popped my bubble in a matter of minutes . I changed in that few minutes . It set the idea in stone by coinkidenk events unfolding in synchronized fashion . Things like that and you start to get a good feeling of my freakiness

Which way does your 'common sense' tell you to go on these matters then?

Any why is it in the bible, if it's to be ignored?

Did you know that Lori and me have the same birthday exactly 10 years apart. To the day . Don't you think that is weird ? Given that we have had very similar God experiences . I think it is weird as can be . I attribute many of my delusion to the time of my birth. I think it is outside influence of wishes from the past and that is why Lori7 and I share the same delusions . The old Holy Rood day was on our birthday. It was eliminated by a Pope in 1960 except Mexico kept the celebration and honers it by devotion to the Construction Worker. Don't you find that strange considering Lori7 and I share the same Delusions. She thinks she is the mother and my delusions tell Me I am the Father . I try to side step and see my delusions for what they are . It is by no means an easy task to separate from the dream state

Well, you just said Christ said it's to be ignored. Parts of the very same book that allegedly foretold his coming. Parts of the book he said he had come to fulfil.

You aren't making much sense.

i'm just telling you what the book says.

how do you think christ is the fulfillment of the law? what do you think that means?

Well, you just said Christ said it's to be ignored. Parts of the very same book that allegedly foretold his coming. Parts of the book he said he had come to fulfil.

You aren't making much sense.
Have you read " The lost symbol " by Dan Brown . I saw the movie first and feel asleep while it was going on , but I caught one point before sleep overtook Me . It was Tom Hanks saying 503 503 there is something about 503 that is reoccurring in all ancient writings . Well that is Lori7 and my Birthday 5/03 . Don't you find that weird . I do considering my God i have been trying to shake delusion has been with me sense I was 8. I find it extremely strange . Tom Hanks grew up in Sacramento just like me . I always felt a kinship to him because of it . So I read the book and you can not believe the parallels in the story to my own life . My Father conflicts of old economic theories verses new Ideas in economic theories clashing . You could say it is a common generational gap , except the book talked directly to Me in many other ways . The whole Melek thing relating to King of the underworld . Franklin 8 . I live across the street from a school built in 1918 named Franklin school . I live in a residential neighborhood called Franklin Park . There was many many other parallels. I don't come from a point of specialty over others . I know the interpretation I present has a sound that seems like that . It is that there is some kind of unifying force at play causing the parallels and in the parallel I am having real difficulty finding my own free will . If I am influenced by my surroundings in this manner then it is my contention that everybody is. I am not special in this way as I see Lori7 falling in the same dream category. I have seen others fall victim of the same delusions with similar number affiliations . There is a guy with affiliations to 5357 just like Me , 3 day 5th month and 57th year . He is sure he is the White Brother of Hopi Legends . He supports it with strange math . I did the same thing when I joined this forum . Don't you think that is weird and coincidental. So then someone on that same forum posted an old writing from Jewish mysticism and it said 11+7+8 is god . So the number of god is 26 . Now I knew I was born at Lad air force base sense I could talk, but what I did not know was the original name of Ladd Air-force Base . It was called 26 mile strip . I found that minutes before that guy posted the 11+7+8 =26 thing about God . Now that is to weird . This is all just a sampling at what i am getting at . There is some kind of prodding going on and it is external of Lori and I . That is the only conclusion I can come to for when I doubt more extraordinary things manifest , nothing today thank god . Yet the day is not over

I contend that there is a parallel perception going on that motivates human activity and Wellwisher is at the threshold of understanding , Wellwisher is bringing into focus the dream state that drives the collection of similarity of motivating forces . I should have known by the handle that well wishers uses that they would be at the threshold for if you think about the act of wishing in a well then it is not that far of a jump to understand the 12 Iman coming out of a well . The same well children wish upon . Even the song Twinkle Twinkle little star is in the same nature of the wish if you ask Me . It ties in nicely with the Pharaohs wish of live long and Prosper. Which ties in nicely with star wars ideology . A continuation of the Pharaohs wish in modern interpretations. Better said " The dream is well and still alive and it comes from ancient dreams of better times in future generations . The dream that will not die until it is full filled by someone or several people or all of us together . I don't know , but it do know it is hard to side step the dream and see it for what it really is . An Ancient Goal maybe ? and we live the motions of that ancient goal until it is full filled

Did you know that Lori and me have the same birthday exactly 10 years apart. To the day . Don't you think that is weird

Not all all, it just means you are a significance junkie, and clearly you do not understand the statistics behind 'The Birthday Problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem)'

I for instance share my birthday with a former colleague, and a brother in law. It's not weird, it's just statistics.

i'm just telling you what the book says.

You needn't, I've read it.


how do you think christ is the fulfillment of the law? what do you think that means?

Well I don't, do I?

God must be a sociopath to allow imperfections to exist.
what's an example of existing imperfection?

You needn't, I've read it.



Well I don't, do I?

well then don't use it as part of your argument then. :mad:

christ is the fulfillment because he was born without sin, which is inherent in the flesh. iow, he's genetically perfect.

in the garden before the fall, people didn't have to practice rituals and sacrifice, and follow rules, because they were perfect, and in communion with god. they did what was right inherently.

only after the fall, when sin was introduced, did all of the rules and rituals and sacrifice occur.

jesus is the restored perfection of the human race...genetically. that's why it's all about his blood. that's what the communion ceremony represents. that's why we have to be born again through him. we will all be made perfect like him, through him. he is the savior because he is the restoration of the human race.

so because of jesus, all of the rules and rituals and sacrifices are no longer relevant. our perfection in christ will be inherent (genetic).

so get your shit straight if you're going to argue! :eek:

well then don't use it as part of your argument then. :mad:

I am perfectly well allowed to it use to argue against those that use it as a basis for their beliefs, DUH!


christ is the fulfillment because he was born without sin, which is inherent in the flesh. iow, he's genetically perfect.

Since when did genes equate to sin? I think you are making shit up.

I am perfectly well allowed to it use to argue against those that use it as a basis for their beliefs, DUH!

you should at least believe in the basis for your own argument. duh!




Since when did genes equate to sin? I think you are making shit up.

if we are born into it...and it's inherent...passed down from generation to generation. the bible constantly designated the desires of the flesh as evil and being opposed to the spirit. and jesus' blood redeems, restores, heals, and saves. that's not metaphorical. think about the communion ceremony. the bible says we will receive new bodies. what the hell else would it be?

you should at least believe in the basis for your own argument. duh!

Don't be absurd! There are two sides to every debate, a pro and a con, cons do not believe the pro's position, do they? They pick holes in the pro position, use pro's own words against them, prove the logical failings in their statements.




...
that's not metaphorical.

No, it's ludicrous.

Don't be absurd! There are two sides to every debate, a pro and a con, cons do not believe the pro's position, do they? They pick holes in the pro position, use pro's own words against them, prove the logical failings in their statements.

that's not what you're doing. you're using it as a basis for an argument as if it is correct when you don't believe it is correct, and that's dishonest.






No, it's ludicrous.

why?

that's not what you're doing. you're using it as a basis for an argument as if it is correct when you don't believe it is correct, and that's dishonest.

Proponents say it's correct, so we argue against it by saying "if you say 'A' is true, that contradicts 'B'", etc. As opponents we do not believe in either 'A' or 'B', this is not dishonest!



why?

You are mashing science into your religion. I don't think you actually understand the science, so leave it alone, eh?

Proponents say it's correct, so we argue against it by saying "if you say 'A' is true, that contradicts 'B'", etc. As opponents we do not believe in either 'A' or 'B', this is not dishonest!

yes it is dishonest. here's an idea. why don't you use your own arguments? why can't you oppose with something that you actually believe?




You are mashing science into your religion. I don't think you actually understand the science, so leave it alone, eh?

you are soooo full of it. i understand enough about genetics to know that what i said about christ makes absolute sense, and so do you, which is why you're copping out with this lame-ass response. this premise isn't rocket science phlog, and science and religion aren't mutually exclusive, they just answer different questions about the same thing.

yes it is dishonest.

No it is not dishonest. Proponents make a claim based upon religious texts, skeptics/opponents in debate pull the text to pieces, and point out inconsistencies. This is HONEST debate.


here's an idea. why don't you use your own arguments? why can't you oppose with something that you actually believe?

Eh? Simply, because I do not have a particular belief that is contradictory! Merely, I see the proofs offered by those holding the belief as deeply flawed.

Why do you see this as a fight? That I have a contradictory belief? Why do you make it a conflict? All opponents do is point out the flaws and unconvincing nature of the material offered to them as proof. We are not swayed, and we are not contrarians. We just don't buy what you are trying to sell.



you are soooo full of it. i understand enough about genetics to know that what i said about christ makes absolute sense,

Oh please, no you don't.



and so do you, which is why you're copping out with this lame-ass response.

Please, show me the genes.


this premise isn't rocket science phlog,

No, it's genetics. It took us longer to decode the human genome than it did to put people on the Moon. It's MORE complex than rocket science! DUH!


and science and religion aren't mutually exclusive, they just answer different questions about the same thing.

Hardly. Religion just makes up answers. Science and religion are, and always will be exclusive, because the scientific stance will always be 'we just don't know' until there is a good model and evidence to support it. Religions just make outlandish claims.

No it is not dishonest. Proponents make a claim based upon religious texts, skeptics/opponents in debate pull the text to pieces, and point out inconsistencies. This is HONEST debate.



Eh? Simply, because I do not have a particular belief that is contradictory! Merely, I see the proofs offered by those holding the belief as deeply flawed.

Why do you see this as a fight? That I have a contradictory belief? Why do you make it a conflict? All opponents do is point out the flaws and unconvincing nature of the material offered to them as proof. We are not swayed, and we are not contrarians. We just don't buy what you are trying to sell.

nobody's trying to sell you anything, and you're using something that not only do you not believe in, but that you purposely have no understanding of as an argument, and that is absolutely dishonest.





Oh please, no you don't.



Please, show me the genes.



No, it's genetics. It took us longer to decode the human genome than it did to put people on the Moon. It's MORE complex than rocket science! DUH!



Hardly. Religion just makes up answers. Science and religion are, and always will be exclusive, because the scientific stance will always be 'we just don't know' until there is a good model and evidence to support it. Religions just make outlandish claims.


show you the genes. you are so full of crap. nobody's attempting to decode the human genome here einstein, this is what we're talking about...





if we are born into it...and it's inherent...passed down from generation to generation. the bible constantly designated the desires of the flesh as evil and being opposed to the spirit. and jesus' blood redeems, restores, heals, and saves. that's not metaphorical. think about the communion ceremony. the bible says we will receive new bodies. what the hell else would it be?

what are we born into? our flesh.

how are attributes of our flesh handed down from generation to generation? by our dna.

what determines the inherent attributes of our flesh? our dna.

if these inherent attributes are to be changed, then what would have to change? our dna.

the only reason you're so adamant about making science and religion mutually exclusive is because you don't want to believe in god. science is how. god is why. nothing that exists is exclusive. everything is connected in some way.

Why would God create a world where pleasure was bad?
only a sociopath would do something like that, a loving god would want people to be happy and there for would encorage things which lead to pleasure.

Everything that is pleasurable is forbidden? If the things that God forbids are the only pleasures that you take from this life then you have bigger problems my friend.

nobody's trying to sell you anything, and you're using something that not only do you not believe in, but that you purposely have no understanding of as an argument, and that is absolutely dishonest.


Lori, get a clue! Have you ever actually participated in a formal debate? Been to a town hall meeting?

If someone proposes something you disagree with, you listen to, and read back their proposal, with your criticisms, point by point. You compare statements, and pick up on inconsistencies, and contradictions. THIS IS HOW IT IS DONE. You are INSANE if you think this is dishonest.


show you the genes. you are so full of crap. nobody's attempting to decode the human genome here einstein, this is what we're talking about...

You are using pseudo scientific language to bolster your bullshit, nothing more.

Lori, get a clue! Have you ever actually participated in a formal debate? Been to a town hall meeting?

If someone proposes something you disagree with, you listen to, and read back their proposal, with your criticisms, point by point. You compare statements, and pick up on inconsistencies, and contradictions. THIS IS HOW IT IS DONE. You are INSANE if you think this is dishonest.

i'm not insane, and i think it's dishonest. i don't see how you think that using an argument that you don't even believe in IS honest.

then again, you'll do just about anything to deny god. it doesn't have to make sense, or be genuine...




You are using pseudo scientific language to bolster your bullshit, nothing more.

now you're flat out lying. there's nothing i said about the very basic premise of genetics that you can disagree with. you're really losing it phlog. you should take some time and regroup if you can't do better than this.

i'm not insane, and i think it's dishonest.

No Lori, dishonest is you picking choosing which parts of the bible you think are relevant, and discarding the parts you find inconvenient, and then championing non-biblical directives on top of that!


jesus is the restored perfection of the human race...genetically

Utter BULLSHIT. You wouldn't recognise a perfect genome if it got up and bit you on the ass.

No Lori, dishonest is you picking choosing which parts of the bible you think are relevant, and discarding the parts you find inconvenient, and then championing non-biblical directives on top of that!


i don't think any of it's irrelevant. i look at it comprehensively, unlike you who absolutely refuses to see the big picture.



Utter BULLSHIT. You wouldn't recognise a perfect genome if it got up and bit you on the ass.

and talk about not seeing the forest through the trees...you recognise the perfect genome by the health and behavior of the human who possesses it.

i don't think any of it's irrelevant. i look at it comprehensively, unlike you who absolutely refuses to see the big picture.


A big picture, made from contradictory statements is 100% correct? I don't think so, it just proves the unreliability of anything based upon it.




you recognise the perfect genome by the health and behavior of the human who possesses it.

Behaviour? OK, you are embarrassing yourself now, so stop.

I would let the lady talk to you about mate selection...

Not all all, it just means you are a significance junkie, and clearly you do not understand the statistics behind 'The Birthday Problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem)'

I for instance share my birthday with a former colleague, and a brother in law. It's not weird, it's just statistics.

Do you live in the same delusional state as your brother in-law or colleague?
What do you mean by Significance Junkie ?

A big picture, made from contradictory statements is 100% correct? I don't think so, it just proves the unreliability of anything based upon it.

i'm sure you're just begging for it to be contradictory, but it's not. i'm explaining why it's not, and you're arbitrarily rejecting my explanation. it's well understood by many people. you're just not one of them, because you don't want to understand.






Behaviour? OK, you are embarrassing yourself now, so stop.

what are you smoking? the proof is in the results, mr. scienceman.

i'm sure you're just begging for it to be contradictory, but it's not. i'm explaining why it's not, and you're arbitrarily rejecting my explanation. it's well understood by many people. you're just not one of them, because you don't want to understand.

It IS contradictory, in it's own words. You have read it, haven't you? Not just the Cliff's Notes?



what are you smoking? the proof is in the results, mr. scienceman.

Give me that proof.

It IS contradictory, in it's own words. You have read it, haven't you? Not just the Cliff's Notes?



Give me that proof.

it's not contradictory phlog. the whole purpose of christ is to redeem us physically, and to turn us into perfect (sinless) people.

you see what the bible says about the characteristics of sin and the desires of the flesh, and then tell me how it's contradictory to what i've suggested.

and you'll get your proof when i and many others get our redemption.

it's not contradictory phlog. the whole purpose of christ is to redeem us physically, and to turn us into perfect (sinless) people.

Yet the bible fails to mention genetics. You just made that up.



and you'll get your proof when i and many others get our redemption.

Yet another prediction of the end times! What Fun! Care to set a date?

Yet the bible fails to mention genetics. You just made that up.


Why in the hell would the bible mention genetics? Think about it. Have you suddenly gone brain dead? Then answer this, what else would change our inherent physical makeup? Magic? Lol



Yet another prediction of the end times! What Fun! Care to set a date?

Why would you ask that again? My answer is still the same.

I would only point out, as regards the topic question, that the answer is necessarily, "No".

God is not human.

Sociopathy is a human disorder.

You might as well ask if magma can have herpes, or a rose suffer a speech impediment.

Why in the hell would the bible mention genetics? Think about it. Have you suddenly gone brain dead? Then answer this, what else would change our inherent physical makeup? Magic? Lol

YOU mentioned genetics,.... but are you saying that we have real physical bodies in Heaven? Why? What of the 'soul'?



Why would you ask that again? My answer is still the same.

What answer? You have declined to actually answer. But of course, this is simply because any firm answer could be demonstrated to be wrong, so it's always coming, but never arrives. You aren't the first prophet of Doom, and you won't be the last. It still won't arrive however.

YOU mentioned genetics,.... but are you saying that we have real physical bodies in Heaven? Why? What of the 'soul'?


The kingdom of Christ is not in heaven. It's a physical kingdom and we will have physical bodies. "on earth as it is in heaven".



What answer? You have declined to actually answer. But of course, this is simply because any firm answer could be demonstrated to be wrong, so it's always coming, but never arrives. You aren't the first prophet of Doom, and you won't be the last. It still won't arrive however.

I've told you before I don't have a date, but I don't see how you can have your eyes open and think the apocalypse isn't right around the corner.

The kingdom of Christ is not in heaven. It's a physical kingdom and we will have physical bodies. "on earth as it is in heaven".

I don't quite understand where you get this notion from.


I've told you before I don't have a date, but I don't see how you can have your eyes open and think the apocalypse isn't right around the corner.

Just around the corner,... but you can't specify a date. Yeah, right. So does that mean less than five years? Ten? Twenty? Can you narrow 'just around the corner' down a little?

I don't quite understand where you get this notion from.

primarily from what i've experienced personally, but it is detailed in the bible as well.




Just around the corner,... but you can't specify a date. Yeah, right. So does that mean less than five years? Ten? Twenty? Can you narrow 'just around the corner' down a little?

who fucking cares when? what are you going to do, stockpile some shit? the point is that our actions have consequences, on a global scale now, and if you can't see that we as a human race are teetering on the brink of annihilation, then honey, you're not looking. :shrug:

The kingdom of Christ is not in heaven. It's a physical kingdom and we will have physical bodies. "on earth as it is in heaven".



I've told you before I don't have a date, but I don't see how you can have your eyes open and think the apocalypse isn't right around the corner.

What?!?!?!? A physical kingdom where? A physical kingdom that can't be physically verified?

Get a grip......it seems as though you have a desire for the apocalypse to happen based on your own convictions and presupposition. Eerily parellel to that of a fanatical muslim's desire for martyrdom.

End of the world prophecies (desires) have been around for centuries. Fortunately for humanity, those self proclaimed prophets continue to wait (in their graves).

What?!?!?!? A physical kingdom where? A physical kingdom that can't be physically verified?

Get a grip......it seems as though you have a desire for the apocalypse to happen based on your own convictions and presupposition. Eerily parellel to that of a fanatical muslim's desire for martyrdom.

End of the world prophecies (desires) have been around for centuries. Fortunately for humanity, those self proclaimed prophets continue to wait (in their graves).

on earth as far as i know. it's obviously not here yet, as i'm unaware of any collection of perfect people to date. i'm a part of it and i'm not perfect yet, so some major changes are going to have to go down prior to it's manifestation. changes that i believe are imminent.

and it shocks me, for as popular and supposedly well read and studied book the bible is, very few people seem to understand even the most basic things about what it says. :shrug:

I don't quite understand where you get this notion from.



Just around the corner,... but you can't specify a date. Yeah, right. So does that mean less than five years? Ten? Twenty? Can you narrow 'just around the corner' down a little?

THAT IS the lords prayer by King David . It is the most recited prayer in Bible . Give us our daily bread and all . I think it starts Thou I pass threw the shadow of death . It is a psalm . I forget the number , but I am sure a good Christian could tell you. It is all about protection . Stuff like this is where we got the Idea we need laws to govern . That is what religion is all about . O.K. consider we are a bunch of animals running around doing what ever our nature wants to do . Bestiality, Rape , Killing for food , Scavenging from other tribes . Taking what ever you want when you want it . Doing what ever you want when you want to . The nature of Humans . Now someone gets a bright Idea there needs to be control and put a stop to a mayhem . The law is born . That is why even as late as the New Testament after Jesus's death it says Government is by God. Man may be making the laws , but what is the motivation behind making the laws . Higher Truth of fairness for the collective of humanity . When you understand that then you can start to get a feel of what God represents . Now we are still just muddling through by cookie cutter style just like the first laws of civilization that were born out of God Told Me . This is it for everyone . One size fits all and fuck the ones that fall threw the cracks . But Hey humans have not evolved that much yet from when we came up with the idea we need written laws to govern us .

on earth as far as i know. it's obviously not here yet, as i'm unaware of any collection of perfect people to date. i'm a part of it and i'm not perfect yet, so some major changes are going to have to go down prior to it's manifestation. changes that i believe are imminent.

and it shocks me, for as popular and supposedly well read and studied book the bible is, very few people seem to understand even the most basic things about what it says. :shrug:


So Heaven is ultimately two very distinct places?

On one hand you have Heaven where the "saved souls" go (perhaps spirits), definitley not with their bodies, after they pass away....so it's safe to assert this place is not physical.

One the other hand, Heaven is/will be a physical place with physical bodies on Earth? (*after all the heathens are slaughtered*)

Is my assessment accurate?

I understand the Second Coming, Heaven on Earth, Trials and Tribulations, etc but never understood this concept and how it is generally accepted and justified.

What?!?!?!? A physical kingdom where? A physical kingdom that can't be physically verified?

Get a grip......it seems as though you have a desire for the apocalypse to happen based on your own convictions and presupposition. Eerily parellel to that of a fanatical muslim's desire for martyrdom.

End of the world prophecies (desires) have been around for centuries. Fortunately for humanity, those self proclaimed prophets continue to wait (in their graves).

Lori and I are going to make it happen . We work to that end everyday . We are going to change your minds to the way we feel fit cause we are Megalomaniacs that think you and everyone else should change your perspective and there by changing the world by new collective thoughts of ethics and fairness for all . I know we are a little self righteous and all, but what do you expect Megalomaniacs to be like after all . We fit our profile pretty good, so you should be happy we do. We change the world by daily activity , cause were Megalomaniacs that believe we can . There is a lot of power in Believing we can

So Heaven is ultimately two very distinct places?

On one hand you have Heaven where the "saved souls" go (perhaps spirits), definitley not with their bodies, after they pass away....so it's safe to assert this place is not physical.

One the other hand, Heaven is/will be a physical place with physical bodies on Earth? (*after all the heathens are slaughtered*)

Is my assessment accurate?

I understand the Second Coming, Heaven on Earth, Trials and Tribulations, etc but never understood this concept and how it is generally accepted and justified.

when your dead you dead . Your spirit may live on by the deeds you do while you are alive and that be about it . . Consider this : Jesus is still alive cause people believe he is still alive . That don't mean he is walking around in the flesh .

Hey I am a Heathen and your not going to kill Me . I be doing the killing round here . Your ego is my mission . Not Mine yours

Lori and I are going to make it happen . We work to that end everyday . We are going to change your minds to the way we feel fit cause we are Megalomaniacs that think you and everyone else should change your perspective and there by changing the world by new collective thoughts of ethics and fairness for all . I know we are a little self righteous and all, but what do you expect Megalomaniacs to be like after all . We fit our profile pretty good, so you should be happy we do. We change the world by daily activity , cause were Megalomaniacs that believe we can . There is a lot of power in Believing we can

The mind is a powerful thing :)


when your dead you dead . Your spirit may live on by the deeds you do while you are alive and that be about it . . Consider this : Jesus is still alive cause people believe he is still alive . That don't mean he is walking around in the flesh .

Hey I am a Heathen and your not going to kill Me . I be doing the killing round here . Your ego is my mission . Not Mine yours

Certainly this is not the classical view of Jesus and it doesn't really touch on my point. I'm asking is there really two versions of Heaven in the Christian world?


That don't mean he is walking around in the flesh

But he could right, if he wanted to, whether people believed in him or not ;)

primarily from what i've experienced personally, but it is detailed in the bible as well.

Round and round,... you said "Why in the hell would the bible mention genetics?", yet above you make the claim that the bible does mention perfect physical bodies, and you personally have claimed genetic make up causes that. Can you separate personal and biblical points of view, and reference each please.



who fucking cares when?

I do. Because prophets of doom are ten a penny. Predictions come and go, and life goes on. I want you to put stake in the ground, so you can be proven wrong, quite simply.


what are you going to do, stockpile some shit?

No, I'm going to question you on why it didn't happen on the day you said it would.


the point is that our actions have consequences, on a global scale now, and if you can't see that we as a human race are teetering on the brink of annihilation, then honey, you're not looking. :shrug:

No, the point is that life goes on despite all these predictions of the end times.

Round and round,... you said "Why in the hell would the bible mention genetics?", yet above you make the claim that the bible does mention perfect physical bodies, and you personally have claimed genetic make up causes that. Can you separate personal and biblical points of view, and reference each please.



The only reason we're going round is because you're playing dumb. Isn't your ego killing you? You pride yourself on intelligence.

The bible is very clear about christs purpose, which is to restore us physically to a sinless state. Google it if you don't believe me. It's also very clear about sin being inherent in our flesh.

You and I both know what determines what's inherent in our flesh.



I do. Because prophets of doom are ten a penny. Predictions come and go, and life goes on. I want you to put stake in the ground, so you can be proven wrong, quite simply.



No, I'm going to question you on why it didn't happen on the day you said it would.



No, the point is that life goes on despite all these predictions of the end times.

well i don't have a date and i'm not a liar. but you certainly are if you're looking at the world and thinking there's not a catastrophic correction coming soon.

i also never said life won't go on. it just won't go on for many, and certainly not the way it has been.

You and I both know what determines what's inherent in our flesh.

Only the current 'imperfect' version of it. You have no concept of what there could be to come. We only have genes and DNA to pass on traits to the next generation,.... no need for that there won't be any breeding in Heaven will there?




well i don't have a date and i'm not a liar. but you certainly are if you're looking at the world and thinking there's not a catastrophic correction coming soon.

Go on then Nostradamus, tell us what it is and when it is. Saying 'that was it' after the fact won't cut it.


i also never said life won't go on. it just won't go on for many, and certainly not the way it has been.

Nice and vague, just like many predictions.

is god a sociopath

Jehovah? probably...and he claims he's a good guy.
http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/12508031.jpg
Worship him, and you get Cargo!
:xctd:

Yay! I want Cargo!:D CAR-GO! CAR-GO!

*Worships model of cargo plane*

Only the current 'imperfect' version of it. You have no concept of what there could be to come. We only have genes and DNA to pass on traits to the next generation,.... no need for that there won't be any breeding in Heaven will there?

i already told you that we're not talking about heaven, we're talking about christ's kingdom, which is on earth. have you taken up smoking pot recently or something?





Go on then Nostradamus, tell us what it is and when it is. Saying 'that was it' after the fact won't cut it.



Nice and vague, just like many predictions.

well gee phlog, if it's not obvious now (which i really don't see how that's possible), then it certainly will be then. i'm just talking about what's obvious.

in regards to the tribulation...taken from mark ch 13...

20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

i am one of the elect. i am the lady who is addressed in 2 john.

i already told you that we're not talking about heaven, we're talking about christ's kingdom, which is on earth. have you taken up smoking pot recently or something?

I don't really give a rat's ass if it's in 'Heaven' or Disneyland to be honest. Are you saying humans will carry on breeding?



well gee phlog, if it's not obvious now

If you think it's obvious, tell me the date.

I don't really give a rat's ass if it's in 'Heaven' or Disneyland to be honest. Are you saying humans will carry on breeding?




If you think it's obvious, tell me the date.

You seem to have lost any reasoning capabilities and you're being a jerk.

i am one of the elect. i am the lady who is addressed in 2 john.

Right. Not only does God speak to you directly, one of the books of the new testament is about you. You're that significant.

Did you stumble across it one night and have some kind of profound revelation when you read the word "lady"? Did you think "Faaark! That has gotta be me. I mean, seriously, deep down I've always known I was special. And guess what? I fucking am!".

The vast majority of Christian's believe that this letter was either written to an actual person who was alive at the time (as is typically the case with the letters of the NT) or that "lady" is simply a metaphor for the church. But the funniest thing about all this is that about 15 or so years ago when I was a Christian myself, a girl I knew at the time (a new member of the church I was part of) had exactly the same "revelation" as you (she didn't have kids but believed that "children" was metaphorical). I would imagine that it's rather common among Christian women actually, considering that they are rarely addressed so directly in the Bible and because the book doesn't mention a specific name.

So you've got at least one competitor (assuming she still believes it), and likely a whole lot more.

Right. Not only does God speak to you directly, one of the books of the new testament is about you. You're that significant.

Did you stumble across it one night and have some kind of profound revelation when you read the word "lady"? Did you think "Faaark! That has gotta be me. I mean, seriously, deep down I've always known I was special. And guess what? I fucking am!".

The vast majority of Christian's believe that this letter was either written to an actual person who was alive at the time (as is typically the case with the letters of the NT) or that "lady" is simply a metaphor for the church. But the funniest thing about all this is that about 15 or so years ago when I was a Christian myself, a girl I knew at the time (a new member of the church I was part of) had exactly the same "revelation" as you (she didn't have kids but believed that "children" was metaphorical). I would imagine that it's rather common among Christian women actually, considering that they are rarely addressed so directly in the Bible and because the book doesn't mention a specific name.

So you've got at least one competitor (assuming she still believes it), and likely a whole lot more.

no, that's not even close to what happened to me.

no, that's not even close to what happened to me.

In any case, you're not the only one who's reached the same conclusion and like said, there's probably a whole lot more.

In any case, you're not the only one who's reached the same conclusion and like said, there's probably a whole lot more.

that in no way changes what happened to me.

that in no way changes what happened to me.

Of course it doesn't. You felt what you felt (or heard, or realized, or whatever) at the time and you believe what you believe. But how do you think the conversation would go if you ever met the girl I referred to above? Would you be able to find a rational way for you to both be the chosen lady, or can there only be one?

Of course it doesn't. You felt what you felt (or heard, or realized, or whatever) at the time and you believe what you believe. But how do you think the conversation would go if you ever met the girl I referred to above? Would you be able to find a rational way for you to both be the chosen lady, or can there only be one?

after what i've been through i would never try to judge someone else's experiences, and i certainly wouldn't feel threatened by someone else's opinion of me or of mine.

it's been my understanding for a while now, and primarily because of what i've been through, that the bible is a tool that's used by the holy spirit to accomplish things in different people. i think the same scripture could be interpreted in different ways to different people for different reasons, and all of those interpretations be relevant, or true.

it's been my understanding for a while now, and primarily because of what i've been through, that the bible is a tool that's used by the holy spirit to accomplish things in different people.

Many serial killers have said the same. 'God told me to do it' etc.

What's your point?

Many serial killers have said the same. 'God told me to do it' etc.

What's your point?
some have even said that the lyrics from the Beatles made them do it too, so what's yours?
:shrug:

it's been my understanding for a while now, and primarily because of what i've been through, that the bible is a tool that's used by the holy spirit to accomplish things in different people. i think the same scripture could be interpreted in different ways to different people for different reasons, and all of those interpretations be relevant, or true.

Except when it comes to me, and some others, right?

You ever so confidently exclude us from "being used by the holy spirit to accomplish things" and you are sure that our interpretations are not relevant and not true.

:itold:

after what i've been through i would never try to judge someone else's experiences
Apart from the fact that you do very little but that.

Apart from the fact that you do very little but that.

Dyw, you old wanker, how dare think so badly about our beloved Lori, the birthmother of the Kingdom!!!

Dyw, you old wanker, how dare think so badly about our beloved Lori, the birthmother of the Kingdom!!!
'seasy: I'm a curmudgeon. And an atheist to boot!

'seasy: I'm a curmudgeon. And an atheist to boot!

Oh, nothing that some good Christian wub :o:o won't cure!

http://www.inhumanrace.com/InquisitionHanging%20Torture.jpg