View Full Version : mormons scare me


fadingCaptain
05-26-04, 02:03 PM
I had a visit from some mormons last week. For some reason I got very nervous when I saw them at the door. Heart rate went up and everything. I told them how I felt, they gave me some pamphlet and left. No big deal.

So...why did I get so nervous? Is it that I was afraid they'd pressure me into something? Or do I just not like to talk to strangers about personal beliefs? I really am not sure.

DoctorNO
05-26-04, 02:10 PM
1. Did you know they were mormons before they knocked on your door? How could you tell?

2. Did you have a bad experience with mormons before?

3. Are you a loner who doesnt feel comfortable around people?

4. Were you in a different mood that day?

fadingCaptain
05-26-04, 02:24 PM
1. I could tell they were gonna preach to me when I saw em at the door. That is when I got nervous. I figured they were probably mormons.

2. No, I don't think so.

3. Definately not. I usually don't have a problem talking politics, religion, etc. with anyone.

4. I dunno. Maybe I just wasn't in the mood to talk this kind of stuff. Usually I think its fun to talk and debate.

I'm still not sure if I felt threatened or what. Pretty strange for me. Anyone else get nervous when visited by the church of utah?

Medicine*Woman
05-26-04, 02:25 PM
[QUOTE=fadingCaptain]I had a visit from some mormons last week. For some reason I got very nervous when I saw them at the door. Heart rate went up and everything. I told them how I felt, they gave me some pamphlet and left. No big deal.

So...why did I get so nervous? Is it that I was afraid they'd pressure me into something? Or do I just not like to talk to strangers about personal beliefs? I really am not sure.
*************
M*W: Maybe because they look like clones/clowns on bicycles? They are very young men (as a rule) doing their missionary work. They've spent their whole life preparing for this mission. I've visited Salt Lake City several times and patronized the LDS Genealogy Library for family history research. The young women do their missionary work in their local Mormon facilities, but some do travel to do their missionary work.

I don't know enough about LDS, but I do know they have better family records than the National Archives. They are pleasant people on their own turf. I've found that when I'm approached by one of their young missionaries, I start talking about genealogy. I can go on forever with this topic. It kinda frustates them and they want to leave or hang up. It's very much a part of their religion, though, so I stay on the subject. Whatever you do, if they offer you a Book of Mormon, don't accept it, or you'll never get rid of them!

Have pity on them. They're not much older than high school age, and their families have had to save up to $4-5k to send them off to their missionary work, and their church matches it, I think. Missionary work is how they achieve salvation, or one of the ways, but no thank you, not on my time.

DoctorNO
05-26-04, 02:41 PM
I dont know much about Mormons. Is it true that their religion is against black people?

Logically Unsound
05-26-04, 02:44 PM
did they have big sticks and have one as a standard-bearer with a standard saying:

"do not oppose us"

on it?
other than that you were probably just scared.

ps. were you sinning in any way? maybe god shone on you and gave you the gift of nervouseness to put you abck on the course of righteuosness.

Dreamwalker
05-26-04, 02:50 PM
Mormons? I am so glad that they do not exist here.
Just sometimes we get witnesses, they taste funny.
But they are always delivered warm to your door.


Perhaps the mormons scared you with their firm belief and their
unwavering and uniform appearance?

fadingCaptain
05-26-04, 02:52 PM
hehe i thought that god might have been telling me something. i was thinkin of having a wank at the time. :)

Medicine*Woman
05-26-04, 03:05 PM
[QUOTE=DoctorNO]I dont know much about Mormons. Is it true that their religion is against black people?
*************
M*W: They won't admit it, but when I was in SLC, I didn't see any black people. They are heavily missionizing Africa now. So, I suppose as long as the blacks stay in Africa, the Mormons
will continue to convert them over there.

c20H25N3o
05-26-04, 03:42 PM
hehe I invite em in for a cup of coffee and a shoot em up on the ps2. Hell, they have to walk around all day with people telling them to get lost. I just tell them I have a personal faith and my faith says I should be compassionate. I tell em I dont wanna talk scripture if thats ok but if they wanna play a game on the ps2 and take the weight off their feet thas cool. Some of em are pretty good gamesters let me tell you ;)

water
05-26-04, 04:33 PM
I had a visit from some mormons last week. For some reason I got very nervous when I saw them at the door. Heart rate went up and everything. I told them how I felt, they gave me some pamphlet and left. No big deal.

So...why did I get so nervous? Is it that I was afraid they'd pressure me into something? Or do I just not like to talk to strangers about personal beliefs? I really am not sure.


I have intensive experiences with them. (Huh. Uh. Huh.)

Nervous when meeting them?
I'd say it is your natural defense mechanism telling you that there is something wrong.

What Mormons do, going around on missions, is ill and malignant, regardless how kind and polite and harmless they may seem on the outside.

They say that they love you, want to help you, be your friends and such.
Yet they meet you as their religion, not as persons.
Only a person can be a friend, religion cannot.
This is something Mormons don't seem to understand.

Like, there were missionaries who said they were my friends, and that "a friend is a friend, regardless if missionary or not".
It is just that one can barely do things with them one does with friends ... and they don't treat you as they treat their friends back home.

There is always this professional distance -- which is perfectly okay, IMO. It is just that they insist on saying they love you. It is ill.

If you write a personal letter to such a "friend", you should expect that it will be read and dissected at their meetings, and that some day some missionary you've just met will quote things from letters you wrote to other missionaries a long time ago.

The whole idea of going on such missions as they do is simply ill and malignant, as I said. And I think this is what you felt when you met them.

Oh, and yes: do mind to understand what they say:
"We hope that you will one day accept Christ in your life."

What does that mean?
'We hope that you will give up everything you believe in now, and accept our religion.'
>> 'We want you to be somebody else. You are not good enough.'

Basically, they question your character. It is natural to get away from those who do that.

water
05-26-04, 04:36 PM
[QUOTE=DoctorNO]I dont know much about Mormons. Is it true that their religion is against black people?
*************
M*W: They won't admit it, but when I was in SLC, I didn't see any black people. They are heavily missionizing Africa now. So, I suppose as long as the blacks stay in Africa, the Mormons
will continue to convert them over there.

Into the mid-seventies, blacks were not admitted into their church. The Book of Mormon says that those who have dark skin have it so because of their sins. This was taken literally.

JustARide
05-26-04, 08:49 PM
Hmmm, I always thought of Mormons as rather unfrightening myself. Then again, my experience with the religion is limited to two or three google searches and that one episode of South Park.

BTW, I find answering the door in the nude and saying, "Hey, I've got a couple of seer stones right here you might be interested in..." usually does the trick.

Josh

Q25
05-26-04, 09:05 PM
Mormons? I am so glad that they do not exist here.
Just sometimes we get witnesses, they taste funny.
But they are always delivered warm to your door.

:D :D LOL

Bells
05-27-04, 02:11 AM
I had a visit from some mormons last week. For some reason I got very nervous when I saw them at the door. Heart rate went up and everything. I told them how I felt, they gave me some pamphlet and left. No big deal.

That's all it took to get rid of them?:confused: They, unlike the Jehovah's Witness', don't seem fazed when I tell them I'm a satanist and to come in and we can compare our Gods. When I use that line on a Witness, they usually go pale and literally bolt down the driveway. But the llast time I used that line on a Mormon, he said yes and came in and sat down while I frantically tried to think up what a Satanist might say, etc. Was a stressful half hour. That's my fault though as I should have just slammed the door in his face when he said yes he'd like to chat about my belief in Satan. :(... So you say that you're scared and they run? Hmmmmm interesting... very interesting..



So...why did I get so nervous? Is it that I was afraid they'd pressure me into something? Or do I just not like to talk to strangers about personal beliefs? I really am not sure.
That's something that only you can answer. It could be a bit of both.

Bells
05-27-04, 02:14 AM
Hmmm, I always thought of Mormons as rather unfrightening myself. Then again, my experience with the religion is limited to two or three google searches and that one episode of South Park.

BTW, I find answering the door in the nude and saying, "Hey, I've got a couple of seer stones right here you might be interested in..." usually does the trick.

Josh
LMAO! I have to say, that was one of my favourite South Park episodes:D.

'dum de dum dum dum'.. hehehe :D..

StarOfEight
05-28-04, 04:50 AM
I dont know much about Mormons. Is it true that their religion is against black people?

Until 1962, blacks were denied deaconship within the Church. The justification comes from the Book of Abraham, which holds a difference in melanin is the result of God cursing blacks. The book remains a part of LDS scripture. So does D&C 132, justifying the practice of "plural marraige."

If you want an in-depth look at the truly bizarre world of Mormon fundamentalism, take a look at the Beyond the Banner of Heaven, written by Jon Krakauer. It's also got quite a bit of general history.

For a general source, I'd go with Mormon America written by Richard Ostling.

§outh§tar
05-28-04, 11:46 AM
Mormonism is such heresy. :(

Dark_Man
05-28-04, 04:41 PM
sigh... I some times get tired of ppl bashing on the mormons because they believe in "plural" marridge etc etc. Fact is most other religions persicute them for who they are. Yet the bible says you should love thy nieghbor etc etc. Just one more tid bit of proof (they are hypocrits) that organized religion is a bunch of crap. **caugh** brian washing **caugh**

From age 9 until around age 15 I was Mormon. Then I relized I had never belived in god etc etc and just stoped going to church. I honestly don't really understand most of the subtle religious differances between mormons and the other christian religions. They all belive in god and the bible most believe in jesus etc etc. The thing about the Mormans that most ppl don't seem to get is compaired to 99% of the larger religions on earth they are THE YOUNGEST. Yet they have grown faster than pretty much all the other religions combined. Why? Cause there VERY organized and logical. For that I respect them.

They don't waste money and resources on fluff like that catholics. Gold statues? stane glass? common... They provide programms and other things that are USEFUL in the real world. In all honesty they act more like a government than a religion. If you lose your job they give you food etc etc.

Ok I'll get to my real point. In the end this biols down to one thing. Mormanism is a MODERN religion. Meaning they have left behind more of the old silly stuff like the catholic cerimonys etc that modern ppl just aren't into. Thus they are more apealing to modern ppl.

My point is this. You should fear them. Because in the grand sceam of things right now they are better at brian washing the masses than pretty much any other christian based religion. Which scares me. I mean my mom is a VERY inteligent person, but she believes. If someone like her can fall into thier trap then the world is in real trouble.

And yes I'm a bible burning athiest who believes organized religions are insianly stupid.

SpyMoose
05-28-04, 05:01 PM
A Mormon is clean, polite, cheerful, devout, charitable, and hoards supplies for the holy war when they will finally be called by god to take over. Mormonism cultivates a clannishness, is almost effortlessly repressive of a wide spectrum of things, they have their own city, they convert folks around the world in exotic locations, and they added their own book to the bible just specially for them.

The fact is, other Christians dislike Mormons because they are winning! They do all the things that Christianity is supposed to do and a lot better than any other denomination. The hatred other Christians show to Mormons is really envy.

StarOfEight
05-28-04, 09:44 PM
In all honesty they act more like a government than a religion.

Exactly ... the roots of the LDS church in the leadership of Young and Smith was a totalitarian theocracy, and while they've become a little homogenized, and a little more photogenic, that's what they remain.

Although, I'd beg to differ that the LDS doesn't spend money on fluff. How else would you describe the pageant they put on every year at Hill Cumorah, or just the temple in Salt Lake?

And Spy, they don't just have the city. (Well, actually, Salt Lake's less than 50% LDS) ... they have Utah, parts of Arizona, parts of Idaho ... a lot of that big emptieness between Denver and L.A.

§outh§tar
05-28-04, 11:04 PM
The hatred other Christians show to Mormons is really envy.

Hatred? Beg your pardon?

Don't be so stupid as to make crass statements.

StarOfEight
05-29-04, 01:20 AM
I don't think that's true anymore, with the exception of the same fundamentalist extremists who rail against the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon, but the early history of the LDS Church is a history of being hated by the rest of America. Granted, it was hatred fostered in part by Joseph Smith shitting all over the Constitution, but all hatred all the same.

EDIT: Wait ... didn't you just dismiss the LDS Church as a heresy? That's not outright hatred, sure, but it is a powerful building block

water
05-29-04, 12:56 PM
If you spend some time with Mormons, you see that they simply don't listen. This is their common trait. They ask a lot of question -- but they don't expect any answers.

One missionary actually agreed that doing nothing IS love.

It's just ill what they do.


Here, have a typical email from such a "friend" of mine (I deleted some of the names):



Hey how goes it? Hey i just wanted to send out a message to see whoes email still works and where y'all are at. I'm in Leesburg,VA right now with my little brother aaron working for the summer. We're working for *** a contractor for ***. Its been really good so far and a lot of work. Aaron turned in his missionary papers a couple of weeks ago so he is waiting to recieve his call maybe this week. My older brother Nate was just hired to a company he's been working with and is gonna be workin in SLC. I'm out here with some of my buddies from college(Barry, Levi, A.J.) and its been fun. We went out to Baltimore and saw a bunch of stuff there (ESPNzone, hardrock cafe, huge sail ships, the orioles stadium and ravens.) Definetely have to go get some orioles tickets this summer. Hope you're doing well wherever you find yourself and let me know what you're up to. In kdor ne skace ni slovenc.&nbs p; Joj kak si zelim nazaj! Tukaj me ful spominja na slovenijo. Drzi se, ajdi cav, ***


Please note that this is from a college student, a former missionary, a well-respected member of his church -- and that this email was sent to 43 (!!) addresses.

Mormon love.

StarOfEight
05-29-04, 02:46 PM
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Second ... Rosa, okay, so that sounds irritating and presumptive, but I don't see what you find so offensive.

Dark_Man
05-29-04, 03:50 PM
spymouse hit the head on the nail. I talked to my mom about this yesturday after this post and she pointed out to me that the mormans are gianing new memebers faster out side the US than they are inside the US. Mianly africa etc.

The other thing is that for yrs the mormans are the only religion that is GIANING members constantly. Almsot all other christian religions are treading water or loseing members.

§outh§tar
05-29-04, 04:21 PM
I don't think that's true anymore, with the exception of the same fundamentalist extremists who rail against the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon, but the early history of the LDS Church is a history of being hated by the rest of America. Granted, it was hatred fostered in part by Joseph Smith shitting all over the Constitution, but all hatred all the same.

EDIT: Wait ... didn't you just dismiss the LDS Church as a heresy? That's not outright hatred, sure, but it is a powerful building block


Matter-of-fact statements dont constitute hatred, do they? :confused:

Joseph Smith was sadly a venomous liar who incited an era of brainwashing and anti-christ activity.

Reminds me of the Word: "Lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name?"

DEPART FROM ME (Mormons). I never knew you.


Same goes for anyone who is not in the book of life. Fact, not hatred.

StarOfEight
05-30-04, 02:06 AM
If referred to the Gospel writers as venomous liars who incited brainwashing and blasphemy before Jehovah, would you consider that hatred towards Christians?

Well, what's the difference?

water
05-30-04, 06:46 AM
StarOfEight,


Second ... Rosa, okay, so that sounds irritating and presumptive, but I don't see what you find so offensive.

I know that my arguments are emotional, and as such and only as such I wish to present them. I don't think there is a valid way to logically justify that one religion is better than another.

I've been around Mormons for about two years, and in this time they have proven to be very disrespectful. I have not converted.

I wished them to understand my position, and I did it in a kind way. At first, I have actually accepted that they truly mean that they wish to be my friends, and that they cared. It was because of this that I was kind to them.

Yet they abused that kindness. They took it as if I was going to join them, and were greatly disappointed when I didn't.

They were full of nice words, but lacked any actions. It has turned out that they were, on several occasions lying to me -- about simple things like returning a cd I borrowed them. And then one Moromon quoted a personal letter I wrote to some other Mormon a long time ago; and the two barely knew eachother.

The list goes on and on.

It's ironic: They think that they are good people, honest and able to judge rightly. And that anyone who doesn't share their belief is simply a lowlife and a crook -- that's how they treated me, while in the same breath saying they love me.


Once, I had a conversation with a missionary on the phone. He was nice, of course, a bit blunt, and therefore seemed more accessible. At some point, he called me "sister". I didn't want to be nitpicky, so I didn't say anything. Then, he said it again. The conversation went thus:
***
Me: I am NOT your sister.
Mormon: Yes you are. (smiling) From now on I will always call you my sister.
Me: I am not your sister. I kindly request you to not force your belief on me, the same as I don't force my belief on you.
Mormon: What else do you do but forcing your belief on us when we have Slovene classes? [I used to teach them the local language]
Me: Do I do anything else there but strictly language matters?
Mormon: [Silence.] Well, good-night, see you at classes.
***



You can do this test yourself: See what a Mormon understands by the word MUTUAL. They don't really have it in their vocabulary; at least not when it comes to non-members.

"Who needs actions when you got words." This is their real motto.

It's simply psychologically ill what they do.

okinrus
05-30-04, 07:17 AM
I'm been around some mormons but I think you will find two different types of mormons. There's the kind of mormon who studies the Bible and book of Mormon, debates, and attempts to convert people. Basically an apologetic, and these are probably the type of people you've met Rosamagik. These mormons can end up becoming rude, and in debates in the past typically degenerate. That's not to say that they are trying to be rude; that's just how they will become when you say they do not believe in the full truth. Then, there are mormons who love the community of mormons rather than what taught is true or not. These people typically don't have time, the necessary knowledge of english, and the knowledge of the christian faith to involve themselves in debates.

StarOfEight
05-30-04, 04:42 PM
Rosa ... okay, the guy in that phone conversation? Dickhead. Absolute cunt. The e-mail, though, just seemed like the doings of a kinda lonely guy, trying to maintain connection with people. I can understand it'd be obnoxious in a larger context, but I didn't immediately understand how truly obnoxious it was. And since you're teaching 'em the local language ... you could fuck 'em right over.

Halcyon
05-31-04, 12:45 AM
http://www.whatismormonism.com

http://www.lds-mormon.com

http://www.exmormon.org

Completely invaluable information. I've also compiled a small database of articles and facts evaluating the accuracy behind the foundation of the faith. I use it to bring people I know to their senses. I've recieved more than my share of death threats, and since Mormons are tought to take any questioning of their faith to be a personal attack against them, I've lost more than a few good acquaintances. But no thread on the subject should be complete without some discussion of the most important aspect of Mormonism; It's fraudulent foundations. I won't do the preaching, I'll let you guys go get the info for yourselves. A comparison of Mormonism to Scientology would not be farfetched, by the way....

StarOfEight
05-31-04, 02:36 AM
I think the South Park episode somebody mentioned did a pretty good job revealing the utter absurdity of the foundation of Mormon belief.

And Halycon, I doubt the Scientologists would allow an ex-Scientologist on the website. They've taken a few ex-Scientologists in Colorado to court for posting church documents to the Internet.

wesmorris
05-31-04, 03:13 AM
FC...

Maybe you have an aversion to conflict. Maybe you're as emotionally invested in your beliefs as you figure they are but that by coming to your house you figure they're ridiculously entrenched in their dogma and they're gonna sound like puppets, like evil animated stupid bible thumping puppets that if unchecked, could go on to destroy the world.

[movie clip announce voice]
one man...

(collage of porch memory images, including porch swings, fenced in porches, patios, grills, cool porch furniture)

(halt on black)

one porch...

(dramatic flash and opening on a peacefull nice afternoon at FC's house... and the music gets dramatic, a low... suspiscious tone)

(enter mormons, a few houses a way... looking all self-righteous and whatnot)

One encounter...

(mixed slow motion scenes of them approaching the door)

... with insanity.

er.. I mean mormonity.

(pleasant exchange with mormons on the porch where they are all super-polite 'oh, well, we respect that. Salutations!')

THIS SUMMER... GOD IS COMING..

(angelic lights shine down on them from a pan down the street as they depart)

To a porch near you.

Get mormonized.

(this film is rated G, BIG G)

invert_nexus
05-31-04, 03:14 AM
There are stories that I've heard that speak of Mormons dressing up like indians and killing pioneering parties back in the old days. Any settlers unwise enough to try to settle Utah (or at least close to Salt Lake) were summarily killed. This is all hearsay, and is likely just anti-mormon propaganda, but one never knows.

I do know that it is unwise to drive through Utah if there is anything of less than legal nature in your vehicle. I know several people who made this mistake. They were arrested, their vehicles were seized, and they were used to feed the prison (jail) system in Utah. While in jail, they met many others who told the same tale of woe.

Also, there are stories told of busloads of indigents or less-than-desirables being shipped out of Salt Lake City when the olympics were held there.

Salt Lake City would be the last place in the world I'd move to. It's practically a police state by all accounts.

water
05-31-04, 03:54 AM
StarOfEight,

I don't teach them the local language anymore, but thanks for the tip. ;)
Anyway, I have the feeling that they didn't believe me the linguistic stuff -- they preferred their own misinterpretations, and kept on doing the same mistakes.
(Slovene is extremely hard to learn; its morphology and syntax are as difficult as those of Latin.)

As for the email: an American friend, who's boyfriend was once Mormon, gave me some insights into Mormon life. She said that Mormon kids are usually quite lonely and don't have many friends -- because people simply don't like to be around them.
Yeah, Mormons are really desperate for this life. Hoping for eternal life must be exhausting, and extremely unfulfilling.

StarOfEight
05-31-04, 04:23 AM
I think that would depend where in the world they happen to live. I imagine Mormon kids in Utah, Idaho, or other LDS hotbeds probably have all kinds of friends. Those in the real world, though? Not so much.

And is Slovenian related to Romanian at all?

water
05-31-04, 10:12 AM
Slovene/Slovenian is a Slavic language, a sister language to Russian, Polish, Czech etc. It is totally nothing like English.

StarOfEight
05-31-04, 10:29 AM
Ah. Does it use the Cyrllic alphabet?

water
05-31-04, 05:16 PM
No, it uses the Latin alphabet with some additional characters -- č, š, ž -- I don't think you'll see them though. (It a c, s and z with a special mark on the top.)

Anyhow, it's a linguistic curiosum, as it has, among other things, only 2 million speakers, one standard variant and one substandard variant, and 47 dialects, dispersing into 256 speeches + local variants.
But thanks for the interest. :)
***

'Nuff language, back on topic.

IMO, the shittiest thing about Mormons is their smarmy cowardice. They have made a grand performance out of it. A Catholic will say it to your face that you're going to hell if you don't convert, and he won't use many nice words. But a Mormon will try to smarm you up. It is this initial dishonesty and cowardice that piss me off so much. It is not a honest fight, if someone comes to you and tells you he loves you, but at the same time thinks you should go to hell.

Medicine*Woman
05-31-04, 09:13 PM
There are stories that I've heard that speak of Mormons dressing up like indians and killing pioneering parties back in the old days. Any settlers unwise enough to try to settle Utah (or at least close to Salt Lake) were summarily killed. This is all hearsay, and is likely just anti-mormon propaganda, but one never knows.
*************
M*W: I'm not Mormon, but I've been to SLC and other parts of Utah more than 4-5 times now, and this is news to me.
*************
I do know that it is unwise to drive through Utah if there is anything of less than legal nature in your vehicle. I know several people who made this mistake. They were arrested, their vehicles were seized, and they were used to feed the prison (jail) system in Utah. While in jail, they met many others who told the same tale of woe.
*************
M*W: I've asked several people (all non- or former-Mormons) about this, and they've said they've never heard of that happening. SLC is a dry city, but you can buy wine and beer at the local grocery store. They allow drinking in "private clubs" if you have a "membership." It's a very clean city, and it's quite beautiful. There is very little crime in the city of more than 900,000 people. Most of the "crime" takes place to the west of SLC. When I've been there, I've never seen a "homeless" person.
*************
Also, there are stories told of busloads of indigents or less-than-desirables being shipped out of Salt Lake City when the olympics were held there.
*************
M*W: These "indigents" you mention don't sound like the locals, but they do sound like some "visitors" to SLC by a chartered bus they've been riding in for days at a time. They fly in from all over the world and chartered busses bring them to the city from the airport. I've seen these "tourists," and they do look different from the locals, because they ARE different from the locals.
*************
Salt Lake City would be the last place in the world I'd move to. It's practically a police state by all accounts.
*************
M*W: This is not true. When I've been there, I don't recall every hearing a police or fire siren. It's a peaceful place. The locals are friendly, and they are used to a lot of tourists. SLC is no police state. It's a place that caters to natural remedies, herbs, alternate health applications, and a healthy lifestyle. The food is wonderful, and you can even get caffeinated drinks, coffee, tea, cokes, etc. liberally in the city. They have an underground mall downtown with the usual grouping of fast food joints. The air is clean, and you can almost get high from the atmosphere.

Most of all, they have the world's most reliably available genealogy library, and the Mormon missionaries work there as part of their "mission." You can ask them anything and they will take a personal interest in helping you locate your ancestors, because that is part of their faith. Works for me.

Salt Lake City and the rest of Utah is one of the nicest places I have ever been (and I've traveled the world). I've even considered moving there, but for now, I'll visit every chance I can get! It's a really clean and healthy place to be.

StarOfEight
06-01-04, 02:16 AM
There are stories that I've heard that speak of Mormons dressing up like indians and killing pioneering parties back in the old days. Any settlers unwise enough to try to settle Utah (or at least close to Salt Lake) were summarily killed. This is all hearsay, and is likely just anti-mormon propaganda, but one never knows.

The Mountain Meadows massacre. A wagon train from Tennesse was butchered by Saints and their Indian allies. In a particularly cruel twist of fate, the survivng children (8 is the age of reason in Mormon teaching) were adopted by the people who had killed their parents. Although the attack was not committed under the orders of Brigham Young, he eventually offered up one devout Saint as a scapegoat. Jon Krakauer's book, Beyond the Banner of Heaven has a pretty detailed account. I believe it's also mentioned in Mormon America, written by the Ostlings.



*************
M*W: This is not true. When I've been there, I don't recall every hearing a police or fire siren. It's a peaceful place. The locals are friendly, and they are used to a lot of tourists. SLC is no police state. It's a place that caters to natural remedies, herbs, alternate health applications, and a healthy lifestyle. The food is wonderful, and you can even get caffeinated drinks, coffee, tea, cokes, etc. liberally in the city. They have an underground mall downtown with the usual grouping of fast food joints. The air is clean, and you can almost get high from the atmosphere.

Most of all, they have the world's most reliably available genealogy library, and the Mormon missionaries work there as part of their "mission." You can ask them anything and they will take a personal interest in helping you locate your ancestors, because that is part of their faith. Works for me.

Salt Lake City and the rest of Utah is one of the nicest places I have ever been (and I've traveled the world). I've even considered moving there, but for now, I'll visit every chance I can get! It's a really clean and healthy place to be.

M*W - if you like the Saints on account of their impressive genealogical library, do you like the Catholics on account of their impressive architecture?

Or, to put another way ... you have a problem with what you see as the Pauline bastardization of Christ's life. How is LDS scripture anything but a Smithian bastardization of the Pauline bastardization.

I'm curious about the distinction you see between mainline Christianity, which you vehemently hate, as far as I can tell, and its American offshot, which you seem to hold in pretty high regard.

okinrus
06-01-04, 02:32 AM
IMO, the shittiest thing about Mormons is their smarmy cowardice. They have made a grand performance out of it. A Catholic will say it to your face that you're going to hell if you don't convert, and he won't use many nice words.

What Catholic would say that?

Halcyon
06-01-04, 01:27 PM
And Halycon, I doubt the Scientologists would allow an ex-Scientologist on the website. They've taken a few ex-Scientologists in Colorado to court for posting church documents to the Internet.

I don't know if there was a mixup here, but I don't see how how your reply followed something I posted. When comparing the two "religions," I was implying that they were both founded on similar premises.

Could just be that I'm tired and didn't understand your reply. *shrugs*

water
06-01-04, 01:33 PM
What Catholic would say that?

Some of those that I had the misfortune to meet. Like my step-grandmother. Or some classmates at school.
Even the archbishop in my country made some serious attacks on non-believers.

I wish I had the tapescripts of those situations. I know, right now, all the info I can give has the status of hearsay, so it's not very convincing. But if I'll find something, I'll post it.

okinrus
06-01-04, 02:28 PM
Some of those that I had the misfortune to meet. Like my step-grandmother. Or some classmates at school.

Even the archbishop in my country made some serious attacks on non-believers.

The theology for the salvation of some non-believers whose non-belief because of the result of ignorance has not been worked out, and we have not been given any sort of divine direction on this matter. I think it's sinful to say to anyone that they will surely go to hell because it is commiting a sin of presumption.



I wish I had the tapescripts of those situations. I know, right now, all the info I can give has the status of hearsay, so it's not very convincing. But if I'll find something, I'll post it.

I believe what you say but that doesn't make such comments official teachings of the Church.

Medicine*Woman
06-01-04, 03:00 PM
SOE: MW - if you like the Saints on account of their impressive genealogical library, do you like the Catholics on account of their impressive architecture?
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M*W: I don't know enough about the LDS religion to have an opinion about what they "believe." Their genealogy library is where my interest lies. And, yes, the RCC does have the most impressive art and architecture in the world. Appreciating the great assets and masterpieces of the world's religions has nothing to do with believing the religion itself. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Truth is in the heart of the beholder. Art is the creative force within the sexual nature of our soul.
*************
SOE: Or, to put another way ... you have a problem with what you see as the Pauline bastardization of Christ's life. How is LDS scripture anything but a Smithian bastardization of the Pauline bastardization.
*************
M*W: Yes, I do have a problem with the Pauline bastardization of Jesus' life. We weren't discussing faith or scripture here. We were discussing the assets and art religions have given us. I haven't studied Mormonism, so I can't say that I believe it or not. From what I've heard about it, I don't believe it to be true. It could very well be a bastardization of Pauline theology.
*************
SOE: I'm curious about the distinction you see between mainline Christianity, which you vehemently hate, as far as I can tell, and its American offshot, which you seem to hold in pretty high regard.
*************
M*W: As I said, I don't see a distinction, because I don't know enough about Mormonism. I do, however, know about Christianity and Roman Catholicism because I lived it. Since there are no known references about Jesus written during the time he lived, either written by himself or close peers, I find it impossible to see how anyone could believe he was the one true Messiah. These were Paul's words--not Jesus'. No one really knows what Jesus might have said when he was alive--if even that.

StarOfEight
06-01-04, 07:21 PM
M*W - essentially, Joseph Smith claimed an angel, Moroni, gave him several golden tablets, which he translated, thus creating the Book of Mormon. No one else ever saw the tablets. On their way west, he also bought Egyptian papyri, and claimed they validated the Book of Abraham, another portion of the LDS canon, despite the fact that no secular linguist takes the claim remotely seriously. Essentially, take the bullshit surrounding the early Church, but bring it into relatively modern, and better-documented times. In George Carlin's phrasing, it's "stunningly, embarassingly full of shit." The South Park episode does a pretty good job summarizing it.

Halycon - I should have said a little more ... essentialyl, while I agree with you that there are certainly similarities between the two, Scientologists seem, as far as I can tell, to be even more lunatic fringe in their behavior than the Mormons, who've become somewhat homogenized.

invert_nexus
06-01-04, 07:26 PM
Funny thing about scientology is it is completely made-up, even more so than Mormonism. Didn't L Ron Hubbard even say that he was just going to make a religion to see if he could? It would be like if Wesism really did take off and become a world wide religion.

Halcyon
06-02-04, 01:50 AM
Invert- that's almost exactly what happened, but it was more of bet among friends type of thing....
Star- Got it. Can't say much more; I agree with you 100%.

water
06-02-04, 04:03 AM
Okinrus,


I believe what you say but that doesn't make such comments official teachings of the Church.

They aren't official teachings of the Church -- but they are what one can encounter in everyday life.

A Christian can come to me, condemning me to eternal hell because I don't believe in a Christian God -- and then *I* have to have more tolerance and more understanding and not yell back at him what a selfish idiot he is.

In the end, non-believers are expected to be more understanding, more tolerant, more educated about Christianity -- more Christian than the Christians themselves!
And this is where the sad irony is.

§outh§tar
06-02-04, 06:35 AM
If referred to the Gospel writers as venomous liars who incited brainwashing and blasphemy before Jehovah, would you consider that hatred towards Christians?

Well, what's the difference?

That would imply that Christ hates Christians since His Spirit of Holiness gives us unction, inspiration...

Read all about it: 1 Timothy 3:16

okinrus
06-02-04, 08:09 AM
They aren't official teachings of the Church -- but they are what one can encounter in everyday life.

There's very little the Church can do. Although we believe that there is no salvation outside of the Church, I've never heard catholics say to another person they would go to hell.



A Christian can come to me, condemning me to eternal hell because I don't believe in a Christian God -- and then *I* have to have more tolerance and more understanding and not yell back at him what a selfish idiot he is.

I was accused of having 5,000 demons within me, but I don't think your speaking of Christians-verse-nonchristians but the hypocrisy that some christians portray. Of course, non-christians also can be hypocritical but it is usually not in condemning people to hell.

StarOfEight
06-02-04, 09:59 AM
That would imply that Christ hates Christians since His Spirit of Holiness gives us unction, inspiration...

Read all about it: 1 Timothy 3:16

Hmm ... there's a word missing from my original post. Here's how it should read: If Jews referred to the Gospel writers as venomous liars who incited brainwashing and blasphemy before Jehovah, would you consider that hatred towards Christians?

invert_nexus
06-03-04, 05:26 PM
For anyone who might be interested in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, here's a link I found to <a href ="http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadowscontents.htm">Mountain Meadows Massacre by Josiah F. Gibbs</a>. It was written in 1910 and I don't know if it's THE definitive text or not, but it's an interesting read.

§outh§tar
06-04-04, 02:58 PM
Hmm ... there's a word missing from my original post. Here's how it should read: If Jews referred to the Gospel writers as venomous liars who incited brainwashing and blasphemy before Jehovah, would you consider that hatred towards Christians?

No :confused:

Be careful of that J-word, however... :(


I think you are confusing the two however. Here's a bit of clarification:


28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Christians, are therefore Jews. Do you mean to imply that Christians/Jews are inciting "brainawashing and blasphemy" before the very Lord of hosts whom they worship ?

StarOfEight
06-04-04, 03:26 PM
South, you rabidly denounce Joseph Smith while claiming Christians don't hate Mormons. I'm saying, if a Jew were to denounce the Gospel writers, would you say that guy didn't hate Christians?

And saying Christians are Jews is fuckin' ludicrous, and you and I both know it.

§outh§tar
06-04-04, 03:31 PM
South, you rabidly denounce Joseph Smith while claiming Christians don't hate Mormons. I'm saying, if a Jew were to denounce the Gospel writers, would you say that guy didn't hate Christians?

And saying Christians are Jews is fuckin' ludicrous, and you and I both know it.

I only quoted scripture, don't hit me. :eek:

So why don't you actually L00K at what I gave? And besides that, didn't I say 'no'???

In case, you continue to have difficulty, I will continue to provide scripture, which this time I hope you will take the time to read:


18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

People who denounce Christ (and yet claim to believe in God), are therefore in denial. Is that hate?

SpyMoose
06-04-04, 09:52 PM
South Star, are you saying that you are innocent of hatred because you are merely in denial that mormonism is the true word of god? If denial is all you have, then why the angry words to go with it. It seems to casual third party observers like me that you do indeed hate mormons.

Fraggle Rocker
06-05-04, 12:23 AM
My experience with the religion is limited to two or three google searches and that one episode of South Park.I've known quite a few Mormons, and I'm about as tough on religionists as any of you. Nonetheless, I found that episode of South Park to be pretty accurate.

Most of them don't take the mythology too seriously. Most of them really do aspire to having healthy and supportive family relations. Most of them don't proselytize too much once they get past that obligatory missionary age. Most of the ones who actually went overseas on a traditional "mission" were changed more -- for the better -- by what they learned about the world than the people they met were changed by the preaching.

I wouldn't want to live in Utah. But then I've liked most of the Jews I've known and I wouldn't want to live in Israel either.

It's worth paying attention to something that South Park treats that respectfully!

§outh§tar
06-05-04, 01:01 AM
South Star, are you saying that you are innocent of hatred because you are merely in denial that mormonism is the true word of god? If denial is all you have, then why the angry words to go with it. It seems to casual third party observers like me that you do indeed hate mormons.

:rolleyes:

AGAIN:

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Might I stress, "an angel from heaven"?

StarOfEight
06-05-04, 03:06 AM
Your Bible quotes are missing the point.

Medicine*Woman
06-05-04, 02:28 PM
:rolleyes:

AGAIN:

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Might I stress, "an angel from heaven"?
*************
M*W: AGAIN:

Paul was just marketing his business.

§outh§tar
06-06-04, 05:21 PM
Your Bible quotes are missing the point.

I think you missed the point of that quote.. :confused:


Joseph Smith claimed to have recieved his "revelation" from an angel. The Bible SPECIFICALLY warns against such treachery of the devil in that quote. Therefore Smith is a dangerous heretic and a venomous liar who crusades against the glory of Christ. I don't see how the Bible could be any more clear on where Smith stands in regards to his so-called revelation.

Galatians 1

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


Hence:

Might I stress, "an angel from heaven"?

And that was my point. :D

§outh§tar
06-06-04, 05:23 PM
*************
M*W: AGAIN:

Paul was just marketing his business.

You really disappoint me. You just insist on making these claims.. :(


Do you dismiss the text as mere coincidence when Mohammed, of the Islam religion, and Smith, of Mormon fame, both allegedly recieved revelations from an angel?

It just can't be, although I know you will squeeze your eyes and dismiss it.



Don't you see the pattern and the relation?

StarOfEight
06-06-04, 05:45 PM
South, my original point was very simply this ... you claimed not to hate Joseph Smith, and then launched the first of several denunciations of him. I wasn't disputing what the Bible said about revelations, angels or whatever ...

That being said, the fact that the Bible denounces the possibility of later prophets doesn't make it true ... it's simply trying to maintain a monopoly on the revelation. The essence of all religions, but monotheism in particular, is that they're "the one true faith." You cite a Bible passage "proving" that Mohammed and Joseph Smith are liars, P_M cits a Qu'ran passage "proving" that worshipping Christ as the Son of God is polytheist, and a Mormon poster cites Doctrines and Covenants "proving" that all prior religions got it wrong.

EDIT: Essentially, the problem here is that you're basing your entire argument on the Bible. Where the Bible universally accepted as the Word of God, that'd be legitimate. It's not. I could cite a Pat Buchannan essay "proving" that America's foreign policy should be isolationist, and a Tom Friedman essay "proving" that America's foreign policy should promote globalization, and neither would resolve the question.

This is why I said, much to your displeasure, that religion is a matter of faith, as opposed to logic.

Medicine*Woman
06-06-04, 07:30 PM
You really disappoint me. You just insist on making these claims.. :([QUOTE]
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M*W: These "claims" as you call them are not my own but are taken from the writings over other, more scholarly, researchers from their publications. I "insist" on perpetuating these "claims," because I believe them to be the truth.
*************
Do you dismiss the text as mere coincidence when Mohammed, of the Islam religion, and Smith, of Mormon fame, both allegedly recieved revelations from an angel?[QUOTE]
*************
M*W: I don't know enough about Mohammed's revelations from an angel. I have been to the Mormon museum in Salt Lake City where they have a diarama of Joseph Smith finding the tablets. My personal belief about these two extra-Biblical philosophies are that both of them could be true. I don't know, but I find it hard to believe that Jesus could be the final prophet. There has to be prophets in every age. Regardless of what they profess, that doesn't mean that I'm going to believe every prophet that comes along. I DO believe in what knowledge I acquire and what is revealed to me. This is the ONLY prophecy I can trust--not some unknown prophet elsewhere.

§outh§tar
06-06-04, 08:35 PM
South, my original point was very simply this ... you claimed not to hate Joseph Smith, and then launched the first of several denunciations of him. I wasn't disputing what the Bible said about revelations, angels or whatever ...

That being said, the fact that the Bible denounces the possibility of later prophets doesn't make it true ... it's simply trying to maintain a monopoly on the revelation. The essence of all religions, but monotheism in particular, is that they're "the one true faith." You cite a Bible passage "proving" that Mohammed and Joseph Smith are liars, P_M cits a Qu'ran passage "proving" that worshipping Christ as the Son of God is polytheist, and a Mormon poster cites Doctrines and Covenants "proving" that all prior religions got it wrong.

EDIT: Essentially, the problem here is that you're basing your entire argument on the Bible. Where the Bible universally accepted as the Word of God, that'd be legitimate. It's not. I could cite a Pat Buchannan essay "proving" that America's foreign policy should be isolationist, and a Tom Friedman essay "proving" that America's foreign policy should promote globalization, and neither would resolve the question.

This is why I said, much to your displeasure, that religion is a matter of faith, as opposed to logic.


Sorry for misinterpreting you.. :p

But by your own 'logic', you could be wrong just as easily couldn't you?

Besides the point, do you consequently believe faith in the true God is "a matter of faith, as opposed to logic"?

§outh§tar
06-06-04, 08:39 PM
Do you dismiss the text as mere coincidence when Mohammed, of the Islam religion, and Smith, of Mormon fame, both allegedly recieved revelations from an angel?[QUOTE]
*************
M*W: I don't know enough about Mohammed's revelations from an angel. I have been to the Mormon museum in Salt Lake City where they have a diarama of Joseph Smith finding the tablets. My personal belief about these two extra-Biblical philosophies are that both of them could be true. I don't know, but I find it hard to believe that Jesus could be the final prophet. There has to be prophets in every age. Regardless of what they profess, that doesn't mean that I'm going to believe every prophet that comes along. I DO believe in what knowledge I acquire and what is revealed to me. This is the ONLY prophecy I can trust--not some unknown prophet elsewhere.


Meaning you "ONLY" 'trust' Joseph Smith??? After what I showed you?

I understand there has to be prophets in every age and that we mustn't go for everything they say. But the Bible's "monopoly", as StarOfEight put it, is justified.


How can you dismiss the accuracy of 2000 year old text as coincidence?

Persol
06-06-04, 08:59 PM
How can you dismiss the accuracy of 2000 year old text as coincidence? The same way you can dismiss the contradictions it contains.

okinrus
06-06-04, 09:58 PM
Jesus is the final prophet in the sense of his second coming but there will be prophets between his first and second coming as is mentioned in the book of acts and revelation.

You are, however, correct, Star Gate, in that the the Bible does not give someone faith. But the Bible also does not make such a claim. Someone who reads the Bible to destroy their faith will do so.

§outh§tar
06-06-04, 11:59 PM
The same way you can dismiss the contradictions it contains.

Shoot away.. I'm listening.