share ur views on the philosphy of terrorism,is it really a optimistic extremism to quench all hopes, why so much dedication is there and how the rational is driven,is anything called liberal terrorism will come in near future or is it our part of life.

everything is value based honey bunch. some people dont understand the power of their illusions.

Terrorism is thought to be the last possible solution (by the terrorists. Although I don't believe it is, it does throw attention to the people that are seeking it. Voilence is the worst type of retaliation for a country that has been terrorised.

I think terrorists are brain-washed. That or they have small minds. I dont see how anyone could feel honor in killing innocent people even if they share different beliefs. And the extent they'll go to, just to prove a point. I think they all have severe psychological problems.

Groove on

Try thinking of them as dedicated, intelligent, non-conventional warriors who are
capable of independent operation and, if necessary, in a foreign country.

It was the arrogance of this countrie's 'protectors' that permitted a sophisticated
operatiion like what happened on 9/11 to be so successful at using this countries
resources against the symbols of this countries 'power'.

As for "killing innocent people", it has been going on since time immemorial ...
Maybe because there are no 'innocent people': All are the enemy!

Take care :rolleyes:

i fink terrowists suck and we shood shoot vem.

"It was the arrogance of this countrie's 'protectors' that permitted a sophisticated operatiion like what happened on 9/11 to be so successful at using this countries resources against the symbols of this countries 'power'."

Oh, I see, it was OUR fault. Thats pretty funny. But Im not buying it. It was a bunch of people with different beliefs than ours that think we should all die because we dont believe in their god.


Groove on

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with:

"It was the arrogance of this countrie's 'protectors' that permitted a sophisticated operatiion like what happened on 9/11 to be so successful at using this countries resources against the symbols of this countries 'power'."
--------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with:

"Oh, I see, it was OUR fault. Thats pretty funny. But Im not buying it. It was a bunch of people with different beliefs than ours that think we should all die because we dont believe in their god. "
--------------------------------
It was the United States fault, and I think it's quite sick that you see humor in it. I think that the United States should pull away the cloud of ultra-nationalism that has been covering their eyes and take a look at how ridiculous and just plain damn power-hungry their foreign policy is.

I could rattle of tons of examples, the Mexican situation with the Zapatista, the testing of atomic/nuclear/hydrogen bombs on remote islands inhabited with only aboriginals (way back in the lovely Cold War), the bombing campaigns in all kinds of poor countries (if Osama was a little pissed that the US bombed a key pharmacy, would you consider that evil?). What about their role in the Gulf War, in the Israeli/Palestinian (sp) conflict.

The US foreign policy is to stick its nose in every orfice in which it doesn't belong and to ensure that only activity that somehwere along the line is in self-interest is conducted. For example, as long as war is being waged in the Middle East, will their infastructure ever be developed enough to take total advantage of their huge oil deposits, thus taking an even larger chunk out of the oil trade than the US?

I do not agree with ANY of the terrorists means of acheiving their goals, violence is evil; being upset with the US however, perhaps is not so evil when you have lived under the skies that you have watched them scorched.

Religion does play a fairly large role in this situation, but not in the way that has been described in my latter quote. I think the terrorists do not see this "holy war" as a war between Islam and The Rest of Religion, but rather moral conduct and immoral conduct. I believe they see little moral virtue in the US conduct(and sorry to tell you this, but they have a better perspective of US foreign policy than most of us), and thus feel it is their MORAL DUTY, as defined by a divine force of goodness, to cleanse the world of immorality. I hope you understand this.

I truly think that the US brought this on themselves, they should admit it, and hopefully a global change will sprout out of all of this. Probably not though, war is easier to wage than virtue.

It was the United States fault, and I think it's quite sick that you see humor in it.


Excuse me! I was being sarcastic. And I dont care a rats ass what our place in foreign policy is, you DO NOT hijack a plane and crash it into a building full of working people and their children. If they dont like our place in foreign policy, maybe they should speak up and be mature about it. Instead of launching anti-american campaigns, their obsessive behavior would be better used in different ways. As opposed to terrorism.


Groove on

...take a look at how ridiculous and just plain damn power-hungry their foreign policy is.

You know, its funny how everyone runs to us for help, and then get mad when we interfere.:bugeye:


Groove on

well if you look back in my original post, i specifically said that i did not agree with violence/terrorism, but you obviously didn't see that ;) I didn't say it was alright for them to take the planes and do that, i think it was very very wrong, and as you said, simple minded and immature. Also, i'm sorry but your sarcasm was not very clear but I know how it feels to be misunderstood i'll take that part back. But still you have to admit, that the US really should have saw soemthing like this coming....you said the terrorists should take different more "mature" action...well i hate to tell you this but there has been a TON of civil outcry in the middle east, most of which you don't hear about because does your government really want its people to see how much they are hated around the world? they HAVE been trying to get the US's attention without violence, but violence seems to be the only way to get your thick headed administration to take anything seriously! As for the rest of the countries coming to the US for help, what kind of aid are you specifically reffering to? The "aid" that was present in illegally selling arms to Iran? You're right saying that most nation [or a lot] come to the US for help, but unless, once again, it helps enlarge the US's sphere of influence, they really don't want a damn thing to do with another country. It seems like a lot of that is still from the Cold War; if the countries were people, the US reminds me of a insecure brat that goes around trying to prove to others and mostly to itself that it is the most powerful bunch of people in the world...which it is :P Bottom line, the terrorists did a horrible thing and I hope they burn in hell for it, but, you have you be able to see their side and realize that the US kept turning a blind eye to the fact that they were constantly stirring at a hornet's nest in their foreign policy.

Okay, I have to admit, Im not extremely well informed on our foreign policy so therefore I cannot argue points on it with you. And I admit, the government HAD to have seen something coming, but it is not the people of the United States fault. Most of us are just trying to suvive like the rest of the people in this world. And even with all the outcrys and even if they did try to speak up in a mature manner, that does not justify what they did.


Peace :)

I agree with you on that statement; it was the US's administration's fault, for sure in no way was it the fault of the general populace, and I agree, as I said before that no matter what the terrorists thought, that act was a cowardly act, and in no way is it justified. Its sad when citizens must pay for the mistakes of the people they elect.

supernova_smash, you summed it up excellently, I agree with you.

I don't think that the American citizens brought these attacks on themselves, as strgrl said, they're just people trying to survive in the world.

But I think that Americas foreign policy had much to do with it. Many Americans seem to have no idea about what their government does in their name around the world. Then they wonder why a large portion of the world resents them.

Now I know that Americans value liberty and democracy, and if you're living in the U.S it may very well seem like this nation truly upholds these virtues. But to people living outside of the U.S it's a different story, Americas recent foreign history is certainly not all sweetness and light. Even in western countries America has a reputation for being, how can I put this- a bit of a bully.

It's terrible and sad that it took a plane hijacking to make America realise that all is not well in the world. The people responsible for these acts were in no way justified, but I can understand their anger. I really hope that the American people will use this tradgedy to really examine their country's policies.

I'm not anti U.S, I have nothing against the American people and was horrified at the sept 11 events, but at the same time I can see where other nation's resentment is coming from.

Io

Okay, I have a question. If most of the world resents us, then why are there thousands and thousands of people trying to come into our country every year? Now, Im not disagreeing with anyone here, Im just wondering. The middle east clearly hates us, but do you all know how many middle easterns enter our country every year and buy businesses and bring the rest of their families here? Does anyone know???:confused:


Groove on

booyah

Originally posted by *stRgrL*
Okay, I have a question. If most of the world resents us, then why are there thousands and thousands of people trying to come into our country every year?

You can resent the way a country influences the world, and still want to live there. It can make you want to live there more even. Of course one of the main points is that most of the world doesn't resent individual americans, just the american government... it's not as though most of the world really wants us dead (even if a tiny number do).

As far as why people come here from around the world, I'd bet 90% of the time it can be explained by economics. No one likes being poor.

You can resent billionaire corporate excutives, and resent their influence over the government and over your life, and yet still jump at the chance to be one of the peons working in their corporation. Similar idea.

Ahhh, point taken. Thanks.

If you think that the US is better than the terrorists then i think you need to look at history.


First lesson: The US (and england) Nuked not one but TWO civllian citys in WW2. killing i don't know how many non-millatry personal.

Second lesson: The US becomes involved in a CIVIL WAR in vetnam. they then go on to dump a canser causing agent all over the place killing not only the enermy, inocent civilans but there OWN PERSONAL. Also during this war they killed large numbers of civilans eventually having to give away the country by default because EVERYONE hated them.

These are just 2 examples of the US's higher moral and ethical ground over the terrorists. You didn't destroy 2 buildings you destroyed 2 CITYS

Originally posted by Asguard

These are just 2 examples of the US's higher moral and ethical ground over the terrorists.

For a list of other examples see this webpage:

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html

Now, I'm not posting this link as a way of saying, "Hey America, see how evil your country is, you deserved those attacks", but rather as an example as to why you are resented around the world.


Originally posted by strgrl
I dont care a rats ass what our place in foreign policy is


strgrl, perhaps if the American citizens knew what crimes their government had commited in their name, they would pressure the administration into having a better foreign policy, thus alleviating the resentment that many people feel towards the U.S, and thus preventing further terrorist attacks.

Yes, the terrorists were in the wrong. But America has been in the wrong many times in the past; the saying "what goes around comes around" is true. It's a great shame that the citizens of America had to suffer for the past actions of their government.

Everyone should be aware of their country's foreign policy. Remember, that if your government does something elsewhere in the world, they are doing it IN YOUR NAME, on behalf of the citizens of your nation. So if people get angry at what your country has done, they attack the citizens.

Io

Hey why dont we start a thread naming all the crappy things other nations have done, since we seem to be the only ones....

Strgrl, you misunderstand.

I will repeat what I wrote under the link:

Now, I'm not posting this link as a way of saying, "Hey America, see how evil your country is, you deserved those attacks", but rather as an example as to why you are resented around the world.

Of course there are terrible things in every nations history. In this thread we were specifically discussing Americas foreign policy, so I was specifically talking about America.

I'm wondering if you actually see my point in what I posted.

Io

In this thread we were specifically talking about America

No, in this thread we are talking about the philosophy of terrorism, hence the reason Im wondering why everyone is raggin on America.
WE are not terrorist, regardless of what everyone may think. And everyone keeps pointing out the bad things we have done in the past, basically saying we deserved what we got. And my point is, every nation makes mistakes, so why are we sooooo bad in everyones eyes???? I live in America, I actually enjoy living in America and would not want to live anywhere else, I think this is a great country. I am very patriotic, and I support every action my country makes, good or bad. And I think everyone should feel that way. If you dont like where you live, then leave. Its the people that live hear that keep saying how horrible it is, that make us look even worse. I know its not a perfect place, but apparently its the best or everyone and their mama wouldnt be trying to get in here.


Groove on

No, in this thread we are talking about the philosophy of terrorism, hence the reason Im wondering why everyone is raggin on America.

I'm certain that whoever posted this thread had the recent U.S terrorist events on their mind. As the thread continued, the discussions all related to America. No ones bagging the U.S from what I can see, just pointing out details of your foreign policy.


Yes, but I'm certain WE are not terrorist, regardless of what everyone may think.


Yes, well it's within your rights to believe that.


And everyone keeps pointing out the bad things we have done in the past, basically saying we deserved what we got.


Well, I can only speak for myself, but I specifically said that I did not think that America deserved what it got.


And my point is, every nation makes mistakes, so why are we sooooo bad in everyones eyes????

Yep, it's true that every country has crimes in their foreign history. The website I linked to gives you some idea of why there is hostility towards your nation.


I live in America, I actually enjoy living in America and would not want to live anywhere else.

Great, I'm happy for you.


If you dont like where you live, then leave.

I'm quite happy living in Australia thankyou very much, and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.



apparently its the best or everyone and their mama wouldnt be trying to get in here.

I know plently of Australians, Canadians, Europeans, Asians who are quite happy living where they are. Anyway, plenty of people want to live here, does that make us "the best" too?

You're acting as if I have personally attacked the U.S. I invite you to re-read my posts, as I have not said anything to give you that impression. Yes, I've criticised Americas foreign policy, that's not the same as criticising the entire nation and everything it stands for.

Io

Im sorry you think that post was directed toward you specifically, it wasn't. Im just talking in general. You have some very good points, but as I read through other threads and this one, a WHOLE LOTTA people are raggin on America and alot of em are people who live in America. I appreciate your input, I really do, but you have to understand my side of things too. Peace.

This hamster long since observed that US bashing is a favored pastime on this forum. Even the few who hold an overall favorable view of the US seem to feel obligated to include a few jabs. The positive role the US has played in world affairs is largely ignored.

This hamster has checked out some of the URL’s to web sites listing US “crimes”. The samples were hardly unbiased versions of history. The ones this hamster read were very slanted. Some were revisionist history that totally ignored the historical context of the event. Undoubtedly the US, either its government or forces operating under government authority, has been responsible for a few atrocities. The US has at times supported bad people in pursuit of its national interest. Overall, the sites were propaganda rather than history.

The US is large and powerful. It has fingers in most everything. There is no way the US (or any country) can avoid making mistakes, at times colossal mistakes. The US highly values freedom of information. That means US citizens have the right to dig up the dirt and shout it to the world. Yep, there has been a lot of dirt. That is the nature of the American system. Expose the dirt to clean it up. Expose the mistakes to keep them from being repeated. (Hopefully 911 won’t keep US citizens from speaking out when they disagree with US government actions.)

The US government’s responsibility is to its own citizens. Only because US citizens care about other countries and their people does the US government have any responsibility to the rest of the world. The US government, as does every government, puts it’s own interests first. In this hamster’s opinion the US does try to be a good world citizen.

As for aid, many of the countries that truly need help don’t share the beliefs and values common in the US. Attempts to change the countries are viewed as interference. Giving aid without changing the system is often ineffective. The US is under no obligation to give unconditional aid.

There is justified worry about the US. Every country that deals with the US is doing so from a position of weaker military and economic strength. This imbalance causes problems. (Absolute power corrupts absolutely.) Bureaucrats representing the US wield enormous power. Those bureaucrats become arrogant. Even friends don’t like arrogant behavior.

This hamster has a very favorable impression of Australia, Canada, and England. However, this hamster is quite happy to be a US citizen.

God, finally someone else spoke up! Thank you hamster, thank you. You said everything, I didnt take time to write.



Oh and by the way...


Groove the hell on :D

Please everyone this post may not be intirly acurate.

OK this thread is the philosphy of terrorism so lets all for a minute forget that we are Australians, or English or Canadian or American. Lets try to get into the heads of people so despreat they are willing to DIE for there corse (i am not trying to take away from the appaling things they have done but rather trying to think like them)

Now the US has backed Israil against palistine (this maybe a lodgical thing for people living in the US but it probably annoyes the hell out of palistinans)

They see the UN as just a mouth for the US (i mean it IS in the US and the security council can veto stuff so not much is done that the US dosn't aprove of)

The US attacked Iraq to protect its oil interests (don't try to protend it was REALLY for the freedom of Quate)

The worlds money all seems to be in the US

The US keeps getting involved in internal politics everytime there intersts are jepadised

Lastly the US HAS done some appoling things in the past (Horsima for example)

Im sure I haven't got down ALL their complants but then i am only an Australian, not someone living on the otherside of the fence

Now i do have a few problems with the US personaly (relating to free trade) and im sure everyone will just dismis this post as "US bashing" but its not im trying to open some peoples eyes to the other side because unless you can change their view of you then the world is in for a very bad time (and i would HATE to be in the American army now because they are going to see ALOT of action with Bush in charge)

Your post didnt make sense to me. First you say this is thread about terrorism and lets try to think like one, and then you go on to bash the US. (?????) What do the two have in common, other than terrorists hate the US. I seriously doubt the reason terrorists make terrorists acts is the US's fault. (I have read about numerous terrorists acts in Italy, Spain ,etc before the 9/11 attack) You dont agree with the US but are you planning on wiping us out? No. Then the real issue is? Why do terrorists think the way they do? Not, what else did America do to piss em off. So please, please stop acting like terrorists are justified by the mistakes we have made, because they are not.

Oh and another thing, even if the US was a completely perfect country, terrorists would still find something to terrorize. Its just in their nature.

You are proably right to some exstent there would be people who hate you for envy or simply because you are different.

That DOSN'T mean that you can't change the minds of MOST of the people who become terrorists. Lumping them all together and just calling them terrorists and saying they are like vermin or something is a VERY good way of making the cycle continue.

They hate you so they blow you up.
SO you invade THEIR contrys and blow THEM up.
SO they hate you even more and they blow something else up.

anyone see a patten (ask England about Northen Irland)

To STOP the cycle you first have to understand why they feel that way then change their minds about it. Make no mestake this IS the hard way but it is also the ONLY way to get an actual lasting peace in the world (short of just deploying Nukes and killing EVERY HUMAN ON THIS PLANET).

ASGARD wrote:(short of just deploying Nukes and killing EVERY HUMAN ON THIS PLANET).
Truthfully I don't think humans could stop the way they are. If mankind could change, it would of happened already. Its the thirst for blood, the whole revenge thing that just won't stop short of a miracle or annihilation. When will it end? Has it ever? All you need to do is pick up a history book, doesn't matter what era, and just see what man has done for thousands of years. What they have accomplished with technology. They always strove to find better and quicker ways to kill. Stone knives, swords, guns, tanks, palnes, missiles, nukes. Why is that? What is the unseen drive that compels man to kill each other. Killing every human on this planet, wasn't that the idea all along.

Strgrl, believe me, I can see it from your side. Living in western country who also happens to be an ally, means that I can see Americas side very clearly.

It's really hard to say anything about your country without people taking it as a bagging.

I agree with Asguard, you can't just lump all terrorists together, some terrorize because of religion, some because of land disputes, some because of poverty, the only thing they have in common is that they all chose to carry out their actions using violence and threats.

Originally posted by Asguard-

They hate you so they blow you up.
SO you invade THEIR contrys and blow THEM up.
SO they hate you even more and they blow something else up.

Yep Yep......exactly!
It's a vicious cycle. The current war is not solving the underlying issues which caused the terrorist attacks in the first place. All it's achieving is making Osamas followers feel even MORE justified in their hostile actions.

If you are successful at killing him, you know what will happen? They'll make a Martyred Hero out of him....I can just see it now, they'll say he was The Righteous Savior of Islam, who was wrongfully killed by the Evil West.

Sooner or later, more Osamas will crop up, and they'll convince another group of men to sacrifice their lives in the name of Allah. And then what? More terrorist attacks. More war, more terrorist attacks, more war...and on and on and on, when will it end?

Never, if you keep dealing with it in this way.

Io

Never, if you keep dealing with it in this way.

Okay, say you were the president of our country when 911 happened, what would you have done?? Go over there with some psycotherapists and tried to pick Osamas brain? (Im being sarcastic here) I dont like war, at all. But we gave them a chance to turn him over, its not like we had many options. First it was the US Embassy in Africa, then the USS Cole, and then NYC. What next?? Im happy that were finally talking about the "actual mentality" of the terrorists instead of US bashing, but Im wondering how everyone else would have reacted? Seriously. How can we make this situation better?


Groove on

What do you do when you want ANY killer from a country. You apply to have them exstardited and if that failes you live with it. Australia had been hunting Christerfer Scase (sorry that isn't how you spell it) in spain for YEARS but when Spain turned us down we didn't invade them. We just ranted and raved about it and it filled all the slow news days. Now he didn't kill anyone but the same princaple applyes. NO amout of war will bring ONE of the dead back to life.

So, if you were the president of the US when 911 happened, you would of "applied" to have him extradicted, and if they didnt comply you would of walked away and did nothing??? Wow, thats an interesting way of doing things, anyone else have any input???

Originally posted by Asguard
NO amout of war will bring ONE of the dead back to life.

A small war, while things are still managable, can prevent things from getting to the point of a much larger war. When there's a clear trend of a group (and Bin Laden didn't personally show up to kill people, so we are talking about a group rather than an individual) getting more violent and dangerous, there comes a point where you act now in order to prevent a worse future. It shouldn't be about revenge, but there should be an effort to prevent things from building up to a far worse future.

SURE as small war say like Northan Irland, or Maybe Israil, or Vetnam, or The cold war or heaven forbid Iraq

And who said this was a small war. Didn't your president say that this war might not end in our life time. You call THAT a small war, not even the world wars lasted that long

There is NEVER a good reason to start a war.

Re. "There is NEVER a good reason to start a war."

Maybe there is never a GOOD reason ... etc. but plain old boredom is as
good a reason as any. Like, you know, it gives some meaning to your
otherwise boring, meaningless life.

Take care ;)

Originally posted by Asguard
There is NEVER a good reason to start a war.

Do you believe, for example, that World War II wasn't justified? There didn't have to be war, it would've been possible to keep handing over land and surrendering.

I lost my Grandfather to that war (not directly he came home then died of canser from the radiation when he was ocupying Japan)

Originally posted by *stRgrL*

But we gave them a chance to turn him over, its not like we had many options.

Yes, but even if they did hand over bin Laden and he was executed, would that have erradicated terrorism? Would that have solved the problems in the middle east which caused all this in the first place? Would that have made everything go back to normal, so everyone can go back to not thinking about the middle east and get on with their lives?

No. Getting rid of Osama will not solve anything, all it will do is make his followers feel even more justified in terrorizing the U.S. Even if he is killed, another Osama will appear to take his place.


Originally posted by *stRgrL*

Im happy that were finally talking about the "actual mentality" of the terrorists instead of US bashing,

For the last time- NO ONE IS BASHING THE U.S. No country is perfect, and yours is no different. If someone happens to bring up something that could be considered a criticism, it does not automatically equate to "u.s bashing".


Originally posted by *stRgrL*

Seriously. How can we make this situation better?


By examining the situation that casued the terrorists to want to attack america in the first place.

By America taking a good honest appraisal of its role in the world and evaluating why there is so much resentment towards them in Arab countries.

By taking the steps to allieviate the cause of resentment. Obviously, the terrorists had beef particularly with the U.S. They chose to attack America, not England, Australia, France etc. Why would this be so? It's not as simple to just say "Oh, they hate us, and that's all there is to it".

Yes, they resent you, but they have their reasons. America has to honestly examine the cause for the resentment. It's not simply a case of "Oh, well they don't like us because we value Liberty and Democracy" That's simply propaganda, these peole have REAL reasons why they don't like the U.S, and terrorist attacks from these people will only go away if America comes to understand these reasons.

Io

There you go again - no one is bashing the US. Have you read anything in this thread? And there you go again, saying that the US needs to take a look.... - Look my point is this - terrorists are going to terrorize no matter what. US is not the only country to have terrorist acts committed against it - Do you watch the news? This thread is named "Philosophy of terrrorism". In other words, why do they think the way they do? Like I said in an earlier post, it doesnt matter if we were a perfect country, terrorist would still find something to terrorize!
And so basically your saying if you were prez, in reaction to the 911 attacks - you would of took a better look at our policies ? Anything else??? You guys are not answering the question realistically.

Asguard


There is never a reason to start war

Really. You dont think the events of 911 were good enough reason? What if they invaded our country, would that be good enough reason? Were in a war, because were trying to prevent a tragic situation like this from happening again. So if they did this to us 10 more times, would that be good enough reason? Weve had terrorist acts committed against in the past before, we didnt start a war then. This was just the last straw. They were illegally in OUR country, they got pilot training in OUR country, they flew OUR planes into OUR buildings and killed OUR citizens. Then they publicly announced war against us and told us they were planning more attacks. If thats not good enough reason for a war, I dont know what is.


Groove on

Can't you SEE. your war stops NOTHING. you cant even find Binladin let alone the man you will piss of by killing him and every time a bullet hits the wrong person or a bomb hits a civillan 5 more people hate you. All your war dose is prove their RIGHT.

America will protect itself at all costs as any country would. Yes war is terrible but than again war or conflict is human.

But it dosen't change anything. Please anyone who has any good sites on Northen Irland Post them because all i can see is another Northen Irland except this time world wide. This is the future the US has chosen for us all.

Asguard is completely right. Can't you SEE. your war stops NOTHING.


Originally posted by *stRgrL*
There you go again - no one is bashing the US. Have you read anything in this thread?

There you go again. It may come as a shocking surprise to you that your country is not perfect. If I happen to point out some imperfections, it does not automatically equate to "u.s bashing", although you seem to think it does. In that case, fine, see it as "u.s bashing", but it's justified nevertheless.

You can keep whingeing all you want about "u.s bashing", but that doesn't make the facts go away. That's as much as I will say about this, and I'm not going into it any further.


Originally posted by *stRgrL*

And there you go again, saying that the US needs to take a look.... - Look my point is this - terrorists are going to terrorize no matter what.

I keep saying it because the US does need to take a look. Yes terrorists will always be around, but by understanding why they chose to attack in the first place, and alleviating the problems lessens the chance of them doing it again.

Obviously you haven't even read my posts properly, Are you so brainwashed by CNN propaganda that you can't even see the world like it is? These attacks did not come out of the blue, there's been a situation in the middle east that america has been involved in for ages.


Originally posted by *stRgrL*

And so basically your saying if you were prez, in reaction to the 911 attacks - you would of took a better look at our policies ?

The president is only a figurehead, and does not make all the decisions. And yes I would have taken a look at the policies, and worked out how to alleviate the problems given the circumstances. The fact is, fixing up the relationship between the U.S and the middle east cannot be solved by a "quick fix" war. More bombs, more killing, more hatred will not solve anything. In fact by undertaking this war, you've done exactly what the terrorists wanted. The people responsible for the attacks wanted to start a war with you....the hijacking was mainly a way of saying "hey, america, come and get us!".....you've fallen straight into their trap.


Originally posted by *stRgrL*

Were in a war, because were trying to prevent a tragic situation like this from happening again.


Now I have a question for you, and you alone. Please explain to me how the war in afghanistan will prevent a tragic situation like this from happening again. That is, I want to know how this war will erradicate terrorism.

Io

This is the future the US has chosen for us all.I think it is the other way around.

Originally posted by Nephilim
I think it is the other way around.

Really? Please explain.

Sept 11 was indeed a bad day for America and while I agree taking over jets and killing our people was wrong...But if you try to look at things from the perspective of the Middle east it makes this mess a bigger mess. England controlled Palestine in 1947 and it was somewhat friendly. But the UN decided to split the country into two countries.. Palestine and Isreal.(which at the time had no country).Isreal starting moving in with our protection..Palestine was fighting the whole thing saying it is our country..That started the war between Palestine (which is just people without a country now) and Isreal. I really see both sides of that war and wish they could agree on two countries but the fact remains we have supported Isreal and armed them the whole time resulting in they say around 100,000 deaths just on the palestine side. Irag most of us know about desert storm but what many of us don't know is around 2.000.000 civilians have died there because of the war and the sanctions we imposed against them..The Untited States has tried twice to overthrow Syria, and did overthrow Iran and put the Shah back in power. The people of Iran had set up a democrocy and we changed it back to a dictorship *shrugs* there is two sides of that story but oil was our motivation. The attempted assination of Muammar Qadhafi resulted in around 100 civilain deaths and we missed our man but killed his two year old daughter. We even shot down an iranian airliner full of civilains during Iran/ Irags war..Our closest supporter in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia but our relationship with them has been shaky at best..Overall the area hates us and wishes we would leave them alone.. I don't see why we don't leave them alone.. Lets suck it up and build more refineries and stop thinking we have to have their oil and making decisions that look so selfish in the middle east. A result of that created the radical Islams and for ther record they worship the same God as Christians, Jews, and catholics..Don't let the use of the word allah or your church lie to you..The line of prophets in their religion start with Adam and Eve and follow all the way to Jesus..the only difference is Mohammed is a prophet after Jesus that we don;t accept..But that is the only difference other than how they worship but gee our own churches don't agree on how to worship...I'm not defending their actions but I can't defend our actions either..Both sides are wrong just like Isreal and Palestine..but we started that mess ourself..shrugs..an after thought Muslems and normal Islam preach war is wrong and condemn Bin Laden right with us..it's the radical branch that fights us with terrorist..what's the answer...well telling Isreal to s top fighting isn't going to work...trying to overthrow governments there isn't going to work..in a few years Afghanistan will be a waste of money to us and history will prove me right...arming Isreal is not helping...and certainly attacking Irag will make things worst..It's a mess over there and and war doesn't look like any type of solution.. I don't know the answer but they have asked us since 1948 to leave them alone and we still haven't listened.. shrugs..

Exactly.

Oh my god more than 2 anti war posts in a row (we just need goofyfish now)

justagirl i agree with you as well

2.000.000 civilians have died there because of the war and the sanctions we imposed against themThe people are starving but saddam looks pretty well fed to me. So who is really starving them.:)

Io Aurelia after your plea on another thread for others to join your side on this thread this hamster again feels compelled to post. StRgrl has really been the only one making substantial replies to the lengthy posts by Aurelia and Asguard. StRgrl has been unfailingly polite and reasonable. Piling on is hardly fair debate.

This hamster supports the anti-terrorism side and believes that hard measures now may prevent a wider conflict later.


Io Aurelia posted:

“Can't you SEE. your war stops NOTHING.”

“It may come as a shocking surprise to you that your country is not perfect.”

“whingeing all you want about "u.s bashing"”

“Obviously you haven't even read my posts properly, Are you so brainwashed by CNN propaganda that you can't even see the world like it is?”

This hamster recalls no posts claiming the US is perfect. Everyone seems to agree that the US has made mistakes. The major difference is that some believe that overall the US role in world affairs has been positive. Whether this hamster has been whining or has been brainwashed is best left for others to decide.


Justagirl posted:

“we have supported Israel and armed them the whole time resulting in they say around 100,000 deaths just on the Palestine side.”

Why does the US get full credit for those deaths? (Do these deaths include the Palestinians killed while trying to kill Israelis?) If the US didn’t support Israel how many Israeli deaths would result? The US has also long supported Egypt as a moderate in the Middle East. The US can influence Middle East affairs. it can’t control them. (As several US presidents have learned to their dismay.)

“Irag most of us know about desert storm but what many of us don't know is around 2.000.000 civilians have died there because of the war and the sanctions we imposed against them..”

The US gets credit for the war and the deaths attributed to the embargo?

Saddam Hussein could have stopped the embargo by allowing full access to UN inspectors. Likely there are other ways that food and health care could reach people in Iraq if Saddam allowed it. Saddam uses his own people’s welfare as a weapon against the US. Saddam is quite willing to have two million Iraqis die so that he gets nuclear weapons. (This also the man that committed eco-terrorism by igniting the oil fields in an apparent act of spite.) The US is to allow this man to gain weapons of mass destruction?

“did overthrow Iran and put the Shah back in power. The people of Iran had set up a democrocy and we changed it back to a dictorship *shrugs* there is two sides of that story but oil was our motivation.”

Oil was a major reason. As was fighting Russian influence in the area. The Shah was committed to western modernization and the US. He promoted an educated middle class including women. He took power away from Mullahs and that eventually led to his overthrow. In hindsight this hamster agrees that the US support for the Shah was a mistake. A people can't be forced to adopt western values.

Justagirl, you advocate the US walking away from the area? Islamic radicals would love that. Would it lead to peace?

This hamster agrees that it is easier to guess what won’t help than figuring out what will.


Here is this hamster’s view of US policy.

September 11 was a wake-up call for the US. For too long the US has ignored groups financing, recruiting, and training terrorists to create an army to attack the US while hiding under the protection of hostile governments. Add the danger that Iraq, Iran, or N. Korea might supply this army with weapons of mass destruction and a US response is necessary.

Attacks on terrorists and nations that support terrorists will harden some opinions against the US. In many cases those people were already hardened in their attitudes. (Many Arabs apparently believe the propaganda that Israel was behind 911.) There will be a political price the US must pay. The US will attempt to garner support and listen to its allies. Ultimately the US will act. This may lead to World War III or to increasing world chaos. Basically the US government sees no other course. Inaction seems even more likely to lead to disaster.

The US anti-terrorism program is multi-faceted. It includes direct battle with terrorists, removal of financial and logistical support, and changing world opinion so that terrorists are no longer condoned. It includes building intelligence partnerships to detect, apprehend, and convict terrorists. It includes programs to reduce US infrastructure vulnerabilities and create disaster response teams. It includes psychologically preparing US citizens for new terrorists acts including biological and nuclear threats. A strong effort is being made to focus enmity on terrorists rather than on Arabs or Muslims. The US expects a long and costly struggle.

US policy does include saber rattling. Part of the pressure on Iraq, Iran, and N. Korea is that no one knows just how serious the US threats are. The threats and reassurances are likely deliberate policy. These policies are not being created by Bush. Bush mediates and makes final decisions but the policies are created by very bright and knowledgeable people with good intelligence sources. (Bush does make verbal blunders. His forte is garnering US public support, not foreign policy.) Doesn’t mean the policies aren’t mistaken or that they will work. Nor are these policies for the primary benefit of any country other than the US. The US will buy support, paying with trade concessions, military and intelligence alliances, and military and economic aid. (Many countries are going to get over the table and under the table goodies from the US.)

These policies aren’t simplistic solutions as portrayed by some on this thread. Many of the covert US policies may never be known. If there is a future historian looking back on these events from the comfort of a secure world, she may judge the US harshly. For now the US must muddle through.

first off the the first statement atributed to Io was mine (i noticed you didn't have anything to say against me)

As to who is in the other camp its You, *stRgrL*, Nephilim, Chagur, Hoth and some i have probably forgotten (think bullets is there somewhere to)

Asguard, thanks for the clarification. This hamster missed your post on the “WWIII” thread and only read Io Aurelia’s encouragement to Justagirl to post on this thread.

This hamster really doesn’t have anything to say against anybody on this thread. (Did want to encourage Io Aurelia to be a little less disparaging.) This hamster guesses that some of the people included as being in the other camp will be surprised. Some likely felt their posts were neutral.

Don’t think there is much disagreement as to the events occurring. The main disagreement seems to be whether the bad has been balanced with some good and in interpretation and emotional reaction to the events. This hamster can’t claim someone else’s interpretation or emotional reaction is wrong. Can only offer this hamster’s view. Mainly did that for balance.

Nor does hamster disagree with the cycle of terrorism Asguard predicted as a likely outcome of US retaliation. The US government has predicted the same and warned US citizens to expert more attacks.

This hamster agrees with Io Aurelia that the terrorists wanted the US to retaliate. They hoped to escalate the conflict into open warfare between Arab and Muslim countries and the West. The terrorists were correct that the US could not and would not let September 11 pass unanswered.

Think everyone agrees that the course the US is following is dangerous. The disagreement stems over whether the course is justified or necessary. The US government position is that the present US policy provides the best chance that a US city will not be attacked by biological or nuclear weapons. That is not a risk for most US allies (other than Israel) or other countries. Some countries may wish to see US arrogance constrained by terrorists armed with weapons of mass destruction. US interests aren’t necessarily shared.

This hamster doesn’t think anyone knows what’s going to happen.

I must admit that being in Australia i don't fear the direct results of a direct atack but i do fear (very much) where i see this conflict leading to. NUKELAR WAR. THE END OF THE WORLD AND ALL LIFE. If Australia did get atacked though i still belive i would feel the same way. I honestly belive that this is only going to lead us to another Northen Irland or NUKELAR WAR.

Hampster ..shrugs..we have to take credit for the deaths in Palestine as it would be like the Untied States taking Florida and giving it to the Cubans leaving all of the Florida people there to be without a home..that's what we did to palestine..we didn't pull the trigger but we suppiled the war, the guns, and the weapons..Yes we have to take credit for the deaths in Iraq..the same as you like to giv credit to the terrorist for NYC.. your right about NYC but that doesn't change the other either just because you live here..they asked us to leave and we stay for the oil and we cause te hatred that we have wheather you want to admit it or not

All Iraq has to do, is let the U.N. inspectors in, is it that hard. Upon complition of the inspection, no more sanctions, than the people of Iraq can hang that maniac by his short hairs.:D

That is, want to know how this war will erradicate terrorism.

Honestly, I dont know. I dont major in political science. But at least were taking a step. Even though some people might not think its the right one, IT IS a step, and I didnt see anyone else steppin up to take that step. Were going to be criticized no matter what we do. Its always happened and its always going to happen. You just thank your lucky stars you live down under and dont have to worry about the things we do.

Who were you quoting?

There are alot of steps you could take but most of them just make the situation worse not better. Sometimes its better to just do nothing than to do something that will just make a bad situation worse

I was quoting IO, and not taking a step is exactly why we had what happened to us on 911. We didnt take a step before and look what happened

You are WRONG about that. There was a step, maybe it was Israil or maybe it was Iraq or maybe it was something else but there WAS a step that made the people who flew those planes HATE you that much that they were willing to DIE for it. Now i didn't mean to imply you should do nothing but the choices you have made will have escalated the situation MORE than if you had sat back and did nothing.


Let me put it another way. Have you ever had a fight with your Boyfriend (husband, lover i dont really care what). Now was it easier to solve the problem while you were Angry or after you had some time to calm down and think your argument out logicly. This is the same the US has been hurt and its people are angry and so they have reacted LIKE someone hurt and angry but this situation really needed a cool head and i fear for the world because of the way it was handled

I hope that makes my opinion clearer

First of all, Strgrl, I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking you personally, so please don't take it that way.


Originally posted by *stRgrL*
Honestly, I dont know.

Then how can you be so sure that this war is the right thing? How can you be so sure that it will stop terrorism?

If you don't know how this war is supposed to help the world situation, how can you be so adamant in supporting it?

I know that before I support anything that claims to solve a problem, I want to know how exactly it will do so.

Just say I said "OK, I know a way to stop world poverty, but it means we have to go to war with Pakistan."

Would you support me? Not if you have half a brain you wouldn't. You'd want to know how it's supposed to solve poverty before you commited your support.

You don't have to be a major in political science. God knows I'm not. I just like to be aware of the things which are going on in the world.


Originally posted by *stRgrL*
IT IS a step......Were going to be criticized no matter what we do.


Yes, it's a step, but it's not the only step the US could have taken. The particular step that your country chose means more lives will be lost (Afghan and American), money being syphoned away to support full scale war, more hatred towards the U.S (which means more people in the middle east will feel resentment, thus increasing the chances of terrorist attacks happening again), and now we have to prospect of nuclear war on our hands. And no, the u.s wouldn't be criticized so much if it had taken other steps, other steps which actually examine the causes of terrorism and work out how to solve them, rather than more violence, bloodshed, hate, and gung ho "Bring on the bombs, boys! we gonna get revenge on y'all".


Originally posted by *stRgrL*

You just thank your lucky stars you live down under and dont have to worry about the things we do.


Well actually, we do have to worry. Your president has basically said "you're either with us, or against us". So if we didn't support this war, presumably we'd be on the side of the terrorists. And we do have to worry, because now you're not only at war with afghanistan, you've also named a whole lot of other countries as potential candidates for attack, thereby draging them into it too. Everyday it's looking more and more like the beginning of world war III.

No nation exists in a vaccum, what goes on in one country effects the whole world.

Io

I could be wrong about this but i think Bush named Indonesia as someone they want to deal with or something and if indonesia gose to war they ARE a big threat to us. I think there Army is as large as our WHOLE POPULATION (Io if im wrong correct me). We are stuck in this for better or for worse and even if we wern't Radiatio poison DOSN'T discriminate. We will just get it later than the US and their Targets. I mean at least the people you are aiming for will die quickly. I don't want to live years with canser because the US presidant was STUPID enough to get into a Nuclear war

Originally posted by ImaHamster2
Io Aurelia after your plea on another thread for others to join your side on this thread this hamster again feels compelled to post.

There are more people on this forum who support this war then those who don't, so it is not unfair to pool together. Believe me, it is very hard to debate with pro-war Americans. And it was not only me that said that anyway.


Originally posted by ImaHamster2

This hamster supports the anti-terrorism side


You're making a mistake with that statement. You're assuming that if someone doesn't support this war, they're pro-terrorist. I'm am anti-terrorist (if you read my posts you would know that), but neither do I support this war- that does not make me pro terrorist.


Originally posted by ImaHamster2

This hamster recalls no posts claiming the US is perfect.


The reason why I keep saying that is because everytime I say anything which suggests that the US has not always done the best thing, I get told that I'm "bashing America".


Io

Originally posted by Asguard
I could be wrong about this but i think Bush named Indonesia as someone they want to deal with or something and if indonesia gose to war they ARE a big threat to us. I think there Army is as large as our WHOLE POPULATION (Io if im wrong correct me). We are stuck in this for better or for worse and even if we wern't Radiatio poison DOSN'T discriminate. We will just get it later than the US and their Targets. I mean at least the people you are aiming for will die quickly. I don't want to live years with canser because the US presidant was STUPID enough to get into a Nuclear war

Indonesia is a big threat to us. They're really close, and our dealings with them haven't been friendly of late (not sure about their army, but will look into it).

Australia is particularly vulnerable because of our position. We're cut off from alot of the western world, if asian countries decided to attack us, it would be easy as hell because of the proximity.

Also, remember that the Jihad is not only on America. They named us too, because we are an ally of yours.

Io

Then how can you be so sure that this war is the right thing?
I didnt say it was the right thing, but we either have war? What were some of the possibilities you guys came up with??? Apply for extradiction of Osama - was one. Oh! And take a look at our foreign policies - that was another. Well to me war looks like the best route, since all the other solutions you guys came up with - suck! Not putting anyone down or anything, but you guys are so quick to bash the war but I have not heard 1 alternative solution that sound resonable.

And Asguard

Yes, I think a fight should be talked over. Did we not ask the Taliban to hand over Osama. Yes we did, and they didnt comply, they basically declared war on us as well. Like I said earlier, there were attacks on us in the past and we didnt JUMP at war then, if we sat and did nothing after the 911 attacks, it would of ONLY invited more attacks and nothing else. Every attack on us ONLY got bigger and bigger when we sat back and did nothing. Could you imagine how big the next attack would be?

Im not for war, but since I have not heard any better options, Im going to stick to my guns and keep arguing my point.


Groove on

Originally posted by *stRgrL*

Im not for war, but since I have not heard any better options, Im going to stick to my guns and keep arguing my point.


How do you know war is the best option if you don't even know how it's supposed to solve the problem?

Io

The WAR isn't wining you any security (i mean have you found him yet and he isn't the only one) but it IS making you a LOT of enermys. If Labor had of been in power i don't even think WE would have surported you.

As to the Talaban decalaring war on you if there was a Murderer in Australia (or the UK) and for some reason the courts denied your request for us to exstadite him would Australia be decalaring war on you. NO of corse we wouldn't we would be exersising our RIGHTS as a sovern nation. THE US DOSE NOT OWN THE WORLD. Every country has the right to control there people and anyone else who is inside there borders. The talaban denied you one man, SO there are thousandes of people just like him killing him will solve NOTHING except to satisfy the need for REVENGE in the US. Revenge solves nothing. I am now going to go looking for every scrap i can find on the IRA and the prodestant equiverlant (which i cant remeber the name of) if you are going to exsist purly for revenge you should get a few tips from them they are the experts at it.

Look, I DONT KNOW that the war is the best. But you cant negotiate with terrorist extremists. And if you cant negotiate with them, what do you propose we do?? We cant sit and talk about it like you guys suggest, we cant forget about the things they have done to us. This isnt about "revenge" like you guys say, this is about eradicating terrorists extremists from the face of this earth to prevent more terrorist attacks. You both keep using examples and non-logical approaches to this situation. Io, HOW DO YOU KNOW that your way would work. Asguard, HOW DO YOU KNOW that your plan will work. You dont! And neither do we, but we sure are hoping its the best one for our safety and for the rest of the worlds safety.

And if Australia was ever attacked as severly as NYC was, who do you think you would be calling for help:D

Groove on

Io Aurelia posted:

“You're assuming that if someone doesn't support this war, they're pro-terrorist. I'm am anti-terrorist (if you read my posts you would know that), but neither do I support this war- that does not make me pro terrorist.”

Doubt Io Aurelia knows this hamster sufficiently well to predict what this hamster knows or assumes. Reference to “anti-terrorist” was a pointed refusal to accept the label of pro-war. This hamster feels the posters on this thread are both anti-war and anti-terrorist.

“The reason why I keep saying that is because everytime I say anything which suggests that the US has not always done the best thing, I get told that I'm "bashing America".”

Unfortunately exaggeration may be interpreted as an error of fact and that tends to undermine a post.

First off we did call you for help (when we went into East Temor) and we were told your Millatry couldn't aford to be streached any thiner. So THANKS AMERICA we arn't important enough for you except when YOU want something. But thats beside the point (because now we are heros from that and we all love our Army).

My point is that every time a civillan dies you make another group of people hate you. If I acedently killed you Mother or son or something you would be screaming for my blood (i know you would because you surport the DP). You would HATE me forever but you don't seem to realise that everytime you acedently bomb an inocents car or home you are making them HATE YOU. Now you might be right that the people who are terrorest already are a lost course and that there is nothing you can do to change their minds (although personaly i would debate that) but what about the terrousts you are CREATING out of your war. If you come bursting in to my house and kill my sister then say "ops wrong house" im not going to just say "oh thats fine don't worrie about her the house you want is next door". I AM going to start to hate you so I could very well become the next terrest and you couldn't claim i am just a fanatic because my actions would be a DIRECT resault of your own.


This is what you don't seem to realise. You cant put yourself in THEIR place and look at it from their point of view and without it all you will see are sub-human fanatics who need to be killed and you will be surprised when for every one you DO kill 10 more apear

America will protect itself at all costs as any country would.


First off we did call you for help (when we went into East Temor) and we were told your Millatry couldn't aford to be streached any thiner.Who did you ask and when?

because now we are heros from that and we all love our Army). Stop ranting for a sec, your not making any sense.:(

Actually i wasn't ranting but sticking it up your nose because they all love us and no-one seems to like you (sorry we all get childish from time to time)

And we asked your former Presidant, Bill Clinton and he said that the US would help anyway they could but then your pentagon didn't like that. they said they couldn't aford another miltary engagement so you only sent "logistic surport"

But surpising as it may seem to you people ours didn't hold a grudge against you for that. In fact the very next time you ask for OUR help we come running


Oh as to your statement that any country will do whatever it takes to protect its people OUR people didn't need protecting and INFACT were put in GREATER danger by our surport of you.

sorry we all get childish from time to timeYou are a child aren't you?

Actually i wasn't ranting but sticking it up your nose because they all love us and no-one seems to like you Sticking what up my nose? you see? Make sense, coversasions turn out better that way. As for no one liking us, well sorry to let you in on our big secret, but we don't care if no one like us. This isn't a popularity contest.:D

Bill Clinton Had no nuts

Oh as to your statement that any country will do whatever it takes to protect its people OUR people didn't need protecting and INFACT were put in GREATER danger by our surport of you. Sorry kid, but what makes you think your safe. Do you really think these terrorists care about you, whether you fight them or not. Your just a target to them. Do you think they cared if foreiners(thats non-americans) were killed in the WTC. Wake up.:rolleyes:

Actually im NOT a kid. I am a leagal adult by Australian Law.

And im sick of you implying that (that is the second thread you have done it in)

I am also wise enought to realise that you are right the US dosn't give a SHIT what other nations think of it, Be those Nations Australia, England, or Iraq. SO i ask again why should we side with EITHER side and i anwser because little Johny has no spine. Your war is one SOALY about REVENGE and NOT about stoping terrorism because if you were actually seriouse about stoping it you would realies that WAR ISN'T THE BEST OPTION. to stop it you should put the money from your $1,000,000 missiles into law enforcement. I mean i was reading something on your ABC website (yes i read other Nations media so i can actually get a boarder opinion than the little CNN opioins like US people) that was saying that flying was STILL no safer, i mean they forgot to plug-in the metal detector (stupid people). The only other way to stop people HATING you and trying to blow you up is to find out WHY THE HELL THEY FEEL LIKE THAT. Your statement about how much the US cares about world opinion (friend AND foe) just shows that it will keep happing again and again.


NOW I THINK ITS YOU WHO NEEDS TO GROW UP AND LEARN A LITTLE ABOUT NATIONS APART FROM THE US BEFORE EVERYONE JOINS THE OTHER SIDE


(i hate doing that so please don't atack me personaly again and we can all play nice)

(i hate doing that so please don't atack me personaly again and we can all play nice)Tell me why the hell they shouldn't.
The only other way to stop people HATING you and trying to blow you up is to find out WHY THE HELL THEY FEEL LIKE THATAMERICANS DON"T CARE IF YOU HATE US.

You are a soldier Bullets tell me if WW3 happens tomorow and it just happens that its the WORLD against the US how long exactly will you last because with an atude like that you will get NO surpport from anyone (infact i would vote for the other side at least russia were honest in saying they wanted to own the world)

Why would I care about such insignificance. As long as we don't go out like punks, I'll die happy.
russia were honest in saying they wanted to own the worldDon't make me call you an idiot.
infact i would vote for the other side at least Go ahead, bend like a reed dude.

the WORLD against the US Kind of like frankenstein against his monster. The world made the U.S. did it not?

No you did that ALL BY YOUR SELVES so don't blaim us for THAT ONE

This hamster knows many Americans that do care how the world views the US and do appreciate the support of friends. Americans are taught that they should do what needs doing even when it doesn’t make them popular. THAT is not the same as not caring how others feel or listening to the advice of others. Australia has been a good friend to the US.

Your right ImaHamster2, I'm sorry.;)

infact i would vote for the other side

So your saying you would side with the terrorists? Are you mad because we wouldnt run to your aid when Australia requested it earlier? But you know if we did run to your aid, you guys would start crying about us interfering. Look, if you dont like the US - dont come here. Thats all. Dont knock it. Im not knockin Australia. And you dont make much sense in your posts. It seems like your mad at the US for some reason or another and your trying to prove your point through different means. Ive been trying to stay pretty level headed while maintaining my point, but it doesnt seem to matter. I asked your alternative to war - you gave some crappy answer. I asked why do terrorist think the way they do - you say its all US's fault. Im starting to think Im going in circles in this thread. If you cant make a valid arguement - dont argue!


Groove on

*strgirl* i thought i was being VERY level headed but i admit i was angry when i wrote my last 2 replys but it was at Nephilim not you.

Just because you don't LIKE my idears dosen't make them "stupid". I hapen to belive they are the ONLY way to stop this situation from happening AGAIN. Next time they wont use planes they will use something else and you will all say "Oh THATS WHAT WE FORGOT". You can't stop them by war they will just fade away and apear somewhere else, while you are adding fuel to THEIR arguments and causing a few more to join there cause.

Of corse i have no intention of joing them but i do feel sorry for people who are that desprait they feel they have no choice but to do things like that. NOT BIN'LARDAN. More the poor people who are caring out his missions. THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE SURE HE CAN'T GET MORE RECUITS IS TO REMOVE HIS JUSTIFACATION.

Whew......it's getting pretty bitchy in here, ain't it?

First off, Strgrl- just because someone doesn't support America, it doesn't mean they're on the side of the terrorists.

Secondly, I'm hearing alot of "we don't care what the world thinks about us".

This attitude is all well and good, but it's what lands you in trouble in the first place. It's like you're saying "well, we're big and powerful, and we'll do whatever the hell we want, and if the rest of the world doesn't like it- tough, we don't care!"

It's that sort of attitude which makes people so angry that they want to hijack a plane and crash into a skyscraper.

Even though we're debating touchy subjects, I think it would be best if we didn't start with the personal insults. Everyone has the right to their opinion without being called an idiot or a child.

Io

Originally posted by *stRgrL*

Look, if you dont like the US - dont come here. Thats all.

For a start, no one said they were anti american.


Originally posted by *stRgrL*

I asked your alternative to war - you gave some crappy answer.


It might be a "crappy answer" in YOUR opinion, but unfortunately, it's the only way to prevent attacks like these from happening again. Anyway, who are you to say what's crappy and what's not, you support a war, but you don't even know how it's supposed to solve the problem.

Originally posted by *stRgrL*

I asked why do terrorist think the way they do - you say its all US's fault.

No, it's not all Americas fault, but like it or not, your foreign policy had a lot to do with it.

Originally posted by *stRgrL*

Im starting to think Im going in circles in this thread. If you cant make a valid arguement - dont argue!.

That's exactly the way I feel about your argument. You can't even explain why you support this war, so perhaps you shouldn't be arguing about something which you don't even understand.


Io

I was begining to think i was on my own again
Thanks Io

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by *stRgrL*

I asked your alternative to war - you gave some crappy answer.

Originally posted by "strgrl*
We shouldnt put people down just becuase we dont agree with each other. Disagreement is what makes this site so special.

Io Aurelia wrote: This attitude is all well and good, but it's what lands you in trouble in the first place. It's like you're saying "well, we're big and powerful, and we'll do whatever the hell we want, and if the rest of the world doesn't like it- tough, we don't care!" Its people like you that misinterpret or put words in peoples mouths to fit your agenda which is wrong.
Io Aurelia wrote: It's like you're saying... You never seem to know what I'm saying, it seems to get lost in translation somewhere.:rolleyes:
Io Aurelia wrote: For a start, no one said they were anti american. Than stop spitting! If you have a point to make, make it. Side stepping makes you look foolish. Just because you don't come out and say it doesn't mean stRgrL is wrong. If your anti-american, say it. I would rather have someone(you) tell me that they hated me, than to pretend otherwise.
Asguard wrote: I hapen to belive they are the ONLY way to stop this situation from happening AGAIN The words I love to hear, it's usually followed by an oppion. Make sure it stays your oppion. If you need to rally support, to fend off your enemies(us), than you might be doing something wrong, isn't that what you've been telling us?

Saying someone has a crappy answer is not the same as calling someone closedminded.

Asguard and Io

"if you cant make a valid arguement - dont argue"

Sorry, bit outta line there. But it just seems to me that you guys keep going around the topic, gettin all rowdy:D I believe that you 2 have good points about "war is never good" I do not like war. I know alot of people who are active duty right now. But Im willing to put that aside and support my country. 1) Doesnt matter what we did, it does not excuse the events that took place. 2)If this is the best way to - at least - try to rid and protect the world from future threats, then I support it. And everyone that loves their freedom and enjoys the luxury of safety - should also support ANY action(s) taken to preserve these freedoms.
Now, Im not here to fight with anyone only support my country and state my opinion. (Oh, and maybe try to persuade a few people that Im right:D ) Peace.

Ok bullets i will divide everyone up into 2 camps

Camp one (you and your surporters)
You seem to want to REACT
Bin'lardan hurt you so now you go and kill him
WAIT a little while
Someone else atacks you
YOU atack them and kill them and so on


Camp two (us)
We don't think that the war dose anything more than creates more terriests
We think that the US (and the rest of the world) need to adress the underliying issues
Also think that to improve US safty you need to focuse more on the Law enforcement insted of the ARMY

It seems to me that we can divide the views into REACTIVE (your side) and PROACTIVE (mine)

I wonder which sides views would work best
Shell we ask Irland or Israil which works better

It's that sort of attitude which makes people so angry that they want to hijack a plane and crash into a skyscraper.

Wooow, dont think Ive ever been that mad! Hence my point - terrorits are terrorist and they are going to terrorize no matter what. Its not about an attitude or a policy its about extremist terrorists(murders) who need to be stopped!

Peace

Camp one (you and your surporters)
You seem to want to REACT
Bin'lardan hurt you so now you go and kill him
WAIT a little while
Someone else atacks you
YOU atack them and kill them and so on


Wait, didnt Laddy REACT to us?
If we stop the terrorists - they cant come back to attack. And when we do succeed, I dont think anyone will be crazy enough to mess with us. Oh wait thats what this thread is about - crazy terrorists who hate us!
:D

The United States of America can not stop crime in their own country and for that matter most countries can't. The United States can kill as many people as they want and it will not stop anything but create more wars. Even "Total" destruction of the Middle East will not stop this . Now using war as a tool creates more terrorist waiting to fight back. Isreal and Palestine have been at war for around 4000 years off and on but the "off" was when Isreal didn't have a country. That took a real genius to Give Isreal "Palestine"...as it was sure thing for war and tension in the Middle east.

Asguard, your right, the next time we'll just offer our throats for them to slash.:rolleyes:

The United States can kill as many people as they want and it will not stop anything but create more wars. we were attacked first.
That took a real genius to Give Isreal "Palestine"...as it was sure thing for war and tension in the Middle east. when isn't there war in the middle east. Remember that we were content minding our own business, but people have to keep fucking with us. If they think we will just lay there for them to trample us, their crazy as Asguard.

We were not "attacked" by a country but by a group of criminals .


Quote.... Remember that we were content minding our own business, but people have to keep fucking with us.

They have asked us to leave them alone since 1948 and we haven't because we "wanted their oil" and thats the truth.

Justagirl posted:

“They have asked us to leave them alone since 1948 and we haven't because we "wanted their oil" and thats the truth.”

This hamster isn’t an expert on this topic. Perhaps Justagirl could explain what is wrong with this hamster’s capsule view.

The issue isn’t leaving them alone. What Arabs want is for the US to stop supporting Israel. Abandoning Israel would solidify US relations with the Arab Middle East and guarantee US oil supplies. The Israelis provide nothing the US needs. (During the cold war Israel helped counter Russian influence in the Middle East.)

Here’s a quick summary of the modern history of this conflict as presented by a British paper. http://www.guardian.co.uk/wto/flash/0,6189,380127,00.html

Nothing in that summary seems to provide moral justification for giving into Arab demands. (That does not mean that everything the Israelis have done is justified. In such dire straits no country could keep its hands clean. Some Israeli actions have angered the US, including an Israeli attack on a US ship.)

The reason the US does not abandon Israel is that it would be wrong to do so. (Something the Jews living in the US would make very clear.)

That is the “truth” as this hamster sees it. (This is over-simplification of a very complex subject.)

PS If the US did abandon Israel, the terrorism would continue. Israel would be less constrained once US influence was gone. The Israeli economy and military might begin to deteriorate. That might encourage an Arab neighbor to invade. At that time Israel would retaliate with nuclear weapons. Hardly a peaceful outcome.

I must agree with the furry little rodent.:)

I posted it once in this thread and to be honest this debate is like the debate if God exists or doesn't exist and I will never change your opinion and you will never change my mind. I am tired of this debate as this isn't the first time I have been in it nor it is this first time you have been in it. But I will talk about being openminded as your source for their side of the story was England and not "the middle east" and as you know There is always two sides two every story but in this issue there is more like 40. And as far as you thinking Isreal is God's chosen people than why the hell do the same churches in this country preach Jews are going to hell??Thats how mixed up Christians are,...in one sentance they say Isreal is God's chosen tribe and the very next they say but they are going to hell. The Christians of this country based their religion on the Bible which is the history, beliefs, and roots of the Jewish People and of course written by the Jewish people. They needed an excuse to kill in their wars (Men like Moses that said "thou shall not kill" and then he attacked countries in war because God said so)and their excuse was "we are God's chosen people" and the saddest thing that has happened on this earth is the Christains believe them but still condemn them to hell as the Jews feel Jesus was a prophet and the Christains believe Jesus was God.( Christians love to condemn people to hell that don't believe like them, even if you are a christian. you have to admit that) Shows you how mixed up chrictians are... Hampster you read my entry about how they have asked US TO leave them alone and commented on it in this thread and now you still act righteous as if " I didn't know that or I don't believe it" Informed decisions can only be made by knowing all of the facts and a sincere desire for the truth and ignorance is a crappy answer or said another way an uninformed opinion.

Justagirl, this hamster also finds these political debates fruitless. (Only joined the thread when the debate seemed too one-sided and the information too distorted.) This hamster doesn’t belong to a side or camp. Tends to have own hamster views and beliefs. (This hamster is not comfortable being supported by an avatar named “Bullets” with a machine gun icon and an avowed desire to kill terrorists. No offense to the person behind the avatar, but such images ruffle this hamster’s fur.)

“There is always two sides two every story but in this issue there is more like 40.”

This hamster agrees. One reason this hamster felt obligated to post on this thread is that overall (this hamster doesn't mean every post and every poster) the discussion seemed too simplistic and the posters too sure of their conclusions. (Sorry for the impolite arrogance. Tried to come up with a less offensive way to say this. Failed.)

Bush has access to far brighter and more knowledgeable people than this hamster. Bush also has access to intelligence information. Bush, through his advisors, is also aware of a complicated entanglement of above the table and below the table international agreements. Every country has both public and private agendas. (Wealthy individuals and powerful corporations are also involved.) The story given to the public is only the tip of the iceberg.

Does this mean that US citizens may sit back comfortable in the belief that the US government will do the right thing? Hardly. There is a long and public history of the US government making mistakes.

The problems are tough and may have no solution. Political necessity may force action even when the action accomplishes nothing and may ultimately harm US interests.

Bush and his advisors have access to very bright people with significant insight. That does not mean they will listen to those people or that those people have answers. Bush’s own religious beliefs bias his decisions. His own comprehension of world affairs seems limited. (This hamster would be more comfortable if Bush had a close Muslim friend. Personal contact is an excellent way to dispel stereotypes.)

This hamster is not at all sure US actions will help the terrorism problem. This hamster is sure that statements such as “all war is bad”, “terrorists are evil”, “the US is a war monger”, “the US is the champion of justice and democracy”, etc. don’t reflect the complexity of modern world affairs.

"as your source for their side of the story was England "

The source for this hamster’s beliefs is casual reading on such topics for decades. This hamster searched for a simple summary that would be accessible to the people following this thread. This hamster avoided US, Israeli, and Arabic sites as being seen as too biased. As England was a major player when Israel formed, a British source seemed appropriate. Would guess that all sites contain omissions, errors, and distortions, as history is muddy.

“And as far as you thinking Isreal is God's chosen people”

Justagirl, this hamster has been agnostic since age eleven. This hamster has had atheist, agnostic, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, spiritualist, Jewish, and Muslim friends and associates. This hamster has no problem with moderate religions. This hamster does take issue with extremist beliefs. Fundamentalist Christians, Muslims, and Jews all make the conflicts worse. (Extreme views regarding ecology or capitalism or political systems or nationalism also acerbate problems.)

“Hampster you read my entry about how they have asked US TO leave them alone and commented on it in this thread and now you still act righteous as if " I didn't know that or I don't believe it"

This hamster did not mean to act righteous. This hamster did remember Justagirl’s earlier entry on this topic. At that time there was no response to this hamster’s request for clarification. Justagirl’s repetition of the same statement led to the hamster response. (The hamster is pedantic.) This hamster had a different view and offered it. The hamster view contains errors and distortions and this hamster welcomes corrections.

Justagirl, this hamster admires your willingness to speak out in defense of your beliefs. While having differences on this topic, this hamster suspects that there would be agreement on many others. Possibly this hamster responding to your posts reflects a desire to communicate rather than antagonism.

well said "hampster" and I I am sorry for the parts of my text that may have sounded judgemental. But Bush can not be trusted to seek the truth anymore than any of our previous Politicians and as we know history is full of BAD decisions by our presidents. It is the peoples fault for not taking matters out of the hand of professional politicians which always have a personal agenda and a long list of people who have donated money to them for favours.

Justagirl, already found a topic of agreement. The political process rewards those willing to distort and mislead to further personal ambition and agendas. This occurs in corporate politics as well. Would guess the same is true of all human organizations to some degree.

Doesn’t mean politicians are evil. (This hamster believes that most people try to do what they believe is right.) Their methods just aren’t hamster methods and their values aren’t hamster values. A hamster would make a poor politician.

Large democracies don’t handle small, vocal, dedicated groups well. The interest group could be a lobby, a religious sect, a wealthy person, a corporation, an environmental group, etc. The larger group either doesn’t care or wants to avoid conflict and so appeases the vocal and dedicated special interest group. (And money does speak to politicians. They can’t get elected without it.)

The vested special interests may lead the US into policies that are not in the best interest of the country. Only when the damage is done, does public attention focus upon and then question the government action.

(Free speech and free press bring to light the worst abuses and that makes the system somewhat self correcting.)

PS When a majority in a democracy does feel strongly about an issue, their wishes can roll right over the objections of those with less popular views.

http://www.hamsterforpresident.com/whitehouse.jpg

He sure got my vote!

Hamster

Well said! You did a very good job explaining yourself. I wish I could do a better job at explaining myself, unfortunately, I suck at it!:D


Groove on

This hamster doesn’t belong to a side or camp. Tends to have own hamster views and beliefs.

Same for me, Hamster. But you can set up your own camp next to mine anytime. Won't vote you into the White House, but if you camp close enough, I'll communicate your (furry) ears off.

(Communication? What a concept!)

;)

CB

A hamster in the White House would quickly become pet food. Discussing ideas with friends around a campfire is much more appealing. :o

PS StRgrl are you certain this hamster is a he?

Smiles we have made some progress. Now can we agree that the world would be a safer place to live if we had peace in the Middle East? For now forget the US/Iraq question, we can have that discussion later. The biggest obstacle to peace in the Middle East is Isreal/Palestine. Isreal does not want to grant Palestine any country and if we do nothing, they will fight for the next 40 years too. Isreal has no real motivation to change its policy as long as the United States is funding their war effort and arms. Palestine has no motivation to stop because they have a "just cause" as they are people without rights and without a country. That conflict is the largest reason the Middle East is upset with our foreign policy and we should change our policy for world peace.

posted by ICARRYALOTOFBULLETS:

If your anti-american, say it.

Well, I thought I'd made myself clear on this, but obviously it got lost somehere in the translation :rolleyes: I'm not anti american.

You never seem to know what I'm saying, it seems to get lost in translation somewhere.

Yeah, well it seems that you never know what I'm saying, so the feeling's mutual.

Posted by strgrl:

1) Doesnt matter what we did, it does not excuse the events that took place.

Yes, agreed. I've made that point myself. The terrorists were not justified in their actions, but it still doesn't change the fact that they had their reasons.

2)If this is the best way to - at least - try to rid and protect the world from future threats, then I support it.

That's the thing though, it won't solve anything. It will not wipe out the threat of terrorists. They'll still exist, they'll still be angry, and they'll still attack if they want to.

If we stop the terrorists - they cant come back to attack. And when we do succeed, I dont think anyone will be crazy enough to mess with us.

But this war isn't stopping terrorists. Even if you get rid of bin Laden and Al Qaida, that's not getting rid of terrorism. The thing is about terrorism, is that no ones a terrorist until they make an attack. Before then, they're simply a potential terrorist (you could say that everyone on the face of the earth is a "potential terrorist", of course most people will never evolve to be an actual terrorist).

So you see, you'd have to wipe out everyone on the planet before you actually erradicated the threat of terrorism.

And don't be so sure that if you attack back, everyone will be too scared to attack you again. Remember that these terrorists all died in the attacks. If they're gonna die in the attack anyway, why would they be scared of the retalliation?

Io

PS StRgrl are you certain this hamster is a he?

:eek: No way! Im dying to know now! I just ASSUMED! Well if you are a chick, your one smart cookie - and now Im jealous of you and dont want to side with you anymore:D That was a total joke, please excuse my sick sense of humor. Hmmmm.... I guess it really doesnt matter, you dont have to answer if you dont want to.:) Keep up the good posts - your very good at explaining yourself without sounding egomanical! Heyyy... maybe you are a chick:D


Peace!