A Case for the Empire

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Hapsburg, Feb 12, 2006.

  1. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    ah, i forgot about echuu shen jon...
    and mara jade wasnt a sith, really. she was actually dependant on palpatine's power for her own force sensetivity. this is explicitly stated in "I, Jedi"

    but regardless....i havent been following this thread very closely. i thought the thread was movie sensetive only? correct me if i am wrong though.
     
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  3. seekeroftheway Let go your conscious self... Registered Senior Member

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    Having not read that, I'll take your word for it...

    And I think the article that started the thread was movie only, not the thread itself.

    In any event, my point is made, feel free to argue...
     
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  5. candy Valued Senior Member

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    I never read "I, Jedi" but as I remember "Heir to the Empire" Mara Jade did have powers of her own that complimented Luke's abilities.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Actually mara jade's powers were her own they were just sporadic becuase Palapatine could not effectively teach her. As the Emperor's hand she did everything for the Emperor, not herself thus she was not selfish enough to be a Sith.
     
  8. seekeroftheway Let go your conscious self... Registered Senior Member

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    And when he assigned her to kill luke skywalker, she failed because she for some reason couldn't. Kinda like love at first sight, as I recall...that or she tried to kill him and failed, but then fell in love with him....or something...help please, I know they fall in love because they're friggin married...
     
  9. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    Sweet jesus. You leave for a week or so and the whole thing goes to pot.

    Right, let's clear a few things up shall we...

    First of all, I am Pro-Empire. I personally believe the galaxy was safer in Imperial hands rather than in Republic control; Old, New or Galactic Alliance.

    Right, let's go through the thread...

    It must be pointed out that one of the reasons the Imperial Navy was kept running at the size it was after the Clone Wars was because of the threat of Extra-Galactic invasion. Palpatine knew about the impending Yuuzhan Vong invasion before even the Clone Wars began.

    I assume you're talking about the destruction of Alderaan? True, the Death Star was created to incite fear into the Imperial populace (do as we say and we won't blew up yer planet) but one can hardly say that Alderaan was an innocent planet. We can hardly believe the desperate words of a Princess who loves her world. What Leia said was clasping at straws in an attempt to at least stall her planets destruction.

    Alderaan was guilty of the following things:

    --Alderaan supplied the Alliance to Restore the Republic with large numbers of troops, weaponry, equipment, training and even uniforms. The basic Rebel trooper where's the standard Alderaanian military uniform.

    --Alderaan was in the process of supplying the Alliance with a War frigate which was full of weapons and had 3 War cruisers attached.

    --Alderaan was a hub for illegal Alliance activity and their politicians used their diplomatic immunity to perform high risk missions for the Alliance i.e. Leia stealing the Death Star plans. They also supplied the Alliance with Imperial data i.e. convoy routes and troop movements.

    --The senator of Alderaan, Viceroy and First Chairman Bail Organa, had resigned his post on the senate and returned to his homeplanet to persuade them to go against the Empire. Alderaan was destroyed shortly before Alderaan was to openly defect to the Alliance.

    Also, the Republic openly accepted slavery in several parts of their own galaxy. So did the Empire but that was due to the Grand Moffs view on alien life. The Emperor did not have an humancentric views at all, but the ones who really ran the show did. Also, the Empire claims that slavery of non-human (or Near-Human) species was classed as 'Domestication' much like we do with cows and horses. *looks around shifty eyed*

    Incorrect. The Rebels were in every corner of the known galaxy. Yavin 4 was just a single base. One of many.

    It must be pointed out that the Clone Troopers were technically slaves. They were born, trained and raised to be soldiers and had no say in the matter. They were made to fight for the Galactic Republic. When Alpha 02 went rogue and tried to re-establish the Mando'ade everyone went ape.

    Mara Jade wanted to become a Sith. She wanted Vader to overthrow Sidius and she would be Vader's second. But she was jealous of Luke Skywalker and Vader's obsession with him. The Emperor had pretty much brainwashed the poor lass and even after his death, his last order to her still rang in her head for a while; "Kill Luke Skywalker". Dun dun dun. Then she married Luke, had a kid and lost that dynamite figure.

    Anyway, back to the original basis of this thread. It's turned into a Jedi vs Sith thread, not a "hey, Empire am good!".

    Firstly, the Rebellion claims that the Empire is in cahoots with the Hutts. This is incorrect. The Empire wants law and order spread throughout the galaxy. The Hutts criminal regime went against this and there were many Imperial assassination attempts on many key members of the Hutt clan.

    The Rebels trick freighter captains into transporting their cargo across the galaxy knowing full well that if the Imperial Navy found came across them, they would execute the innocent captain as being a rebel sympathiser.

    The Alliance often aids and works alongside many pirate and smuggling groups.

    Many people seem to focus on the negative of the Empire. Neither the Empire or the Alliance is good or evil. They have both done some bad things and both have done some good things. People tend to side with the Rebels more because of...:

    A - The movies are made in a way that makes us sympathise with their cause.
    B - The Empire is ruled by the Sith. Sith = Bad (although these Sith use their power to maintain law and order much unlike the Sith found in the Old Sith wars).

    A few positive things the Empire has done (lifted from Rebel Propaganda and Lies found in the Galactic Empire databank):

    I'm still learning a lot about the Star Wars universe, although I know a lot about the Expanded Universe, there is still a lot more I am uncovering with the creation of the Empire at War mod I'm working on.
     
  10. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Not only was she she lying about alderaan, but she also says "dantooine" as the name of the main base, when the main base was on yavin IV. She was going to sacrifice an innocent planet to save a rag-tag group of traitors and scum. What a fucking bitch.
     
  11. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Dantooine was deserted by sentient life so basically she was killing a garden with that suggestion.

    Alderaan was peaceful it did have no weapons, although it did have the best shields in the galaxy. Some have wondered if perhaps the planet was on the hit list becuase it had the largest concentration of Camasaii in the galaxy. Sidious hated the race in particular.
     
  12. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    also, leia's foster parents were the rulers of alderaan and happened to be rebellion sympathizers. i see it as more of a political assassination on vader's part (the destruction of alderaan).
     
  13. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    There were still some bases and cities on it, not massive ones like the ones on, say, Corellia or others, but there were still towns and such, with people and lifeforms. Even if there weren't massly populated, it still would've been destroying a relatively innocent planet, inhabited by neutral.

    There is no reason to believe that what Leia said was true. Everything prior was willingly a lie. Alderaan was home to rebel leaders and sympathizers, and probably functioned as a rebel base.

    Palpatine wasn't racist against other aliens. He was very machiavellian, logical and cunning, rather than fanatical and wild. Palpatine wasn't humancentric, though some in the Imperial hierarchy were.
     
  14. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    i forget..where was mon mothma from?
    was she from alderaan?
     
  15. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

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    "A monarchy is a ship which will sail well, but will sometimes strike a rock and go to the bottom. A democracy is a raft which will never sink, but then your feet are always in the water."

    Is the Republic vs Empire debate the same thing on a larger scale?

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    I admit I haven't seen the prequels for a while, but didn't Palpatine persuade those trade federation chaps to attack republic planets and then use the ensuing chaos to grab power? Effective, but not very moral.
     
  16. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    Dantooine was in fact a Rebel base, one the Rebels suspected the Empire knew about. Which is why they had evacuated and relocated to Yavin IV. It was probably the most plausible planet Leia could have chosen after Alderaan. Unfortunately for her, the Empire knew full well it had been evacuated.

    Alderaan was preparing to give some of it's warships to the Rebel Alliance. Also, Alderaan supplied the Rebels with weapons, uniforms, equipment, supplies and training.

    Mon Mothma is from Chandrila and she was one of the most important figures to speak out against Palpy when he took control of the Old Republic.
     
  17. mountainhare Banned Banned

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    Zephyr:
    Ahh, I'm not claiming that Palpatine acted 'morally', per se. However, idiots often claim that the Sith are to blame for everything. The Sith started the war, the Sith caused Anakin to turn, the Sith were responsible for the corruption and inefficiency in the old Republic.

    But hang on just a sec. Everyone is the debacle had FREE WILL. They made their own choices. Palpatine may have engaged in some persuasion... but so fucking what? Are they claiming that an individual isn't responsible for their actions if someone encourages them to carry out that action? Umm... right. 'He encouraged me to do it, so I'm not to blame, wha wha whaa!'. Typical liberal logic.

    Quite simply, Palpatine merely EXPLOITED flaws which ALREADY EXISTED in the Republic, and the Jedi. He did not create them. If the Republic and the Jedi had have taken a different approach, then Palpatine's plans would have gone down the shitter.

    If the Republic had have been willing to allow the Separatists to secede, there would have been no war, and no need to elect a strong, harsh dictator to maintain control. If the Jedi hadn't been decadent, and didn't engage in backwards teachings, then Anakin would never have turned, and Palpatine would never have had the upper hand on the Jedi.
     
  18. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps you're failing to take into consideration the... insidious nature of the dark side.
    Yes. They all have free will. But, once a poor choice is made, and the dark side is tasted... it infects you and changes you. It rewires you so that things you once would have been horrified by become your bread and butter.

    There is free will. But this free will is eventually lost.

    However, free will always remains as is evidenced by Anakin finally pulling himself free from the dark side. The redemption of Anakin Skywalker. How touching.

    However, it would seem that most are unable to wrench themselves free in such a way.

    The force is a physical presence. It affects its users. It's not analogy and metaphor.

    Beware the dark side.


    That said.
    How come no one mentions the Hutts involvement? Republic. Empire. What about the criminal element? Maybe they'd be the best model for the galaxy to follow?
     
  19. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    They had free will. They were merely influence and manipulated by the politics, like everyone else involved in any kind of politics. That had barely anything to do with the force, and more to do with Palpatine's own charisma.
     
  20. seekeroftheway Let go your conscious self... Registered Senior Member

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    The Republic would've let the CIS secede if there had BEEN NEGOTIATIONS. You're suddenly implying the Republic said no. The republic didn't have the opportunity to say no, the CIS declared war and opened fire without negotiations. Because Sidius wanted war. That was his diversion with which he would take over the republic from the inside. The plan was genius, all the other sith lords who tried to conquer the republic did it by sheer force. AND GOT THEIR ASSES KICKED. Palpatine, on the other hand, did it politically, and succeeded. In any event, point made...
     
  21. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    A quote from Palpatine, to quell any grumblings about "he organized it all from the very beginning and decieved everyone" and other types of Pro-rebel BS.

    -From wookiepedia.-

    Now tell me the man that said that is not an man of honorable and good intentions. Tell me that he did not bring peace and order. Palpatine was an honorable and good man, who replaced devestation and chaos with peace and stability. Hail Palpatine.
     
  22. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    I agree with you Hapsburg, Palpy had good intentions but used underhanded means to achieve them. Good guys finish last.

    He orchestrated the whole thing but he did it because he knew the galaxy would benefit. And it did. Sure, there are some grumblings but who cares. Those who oppose the Empire are mainly criminals and outcasts. Feck 'em.
     
  23. seekeroftheway Let go your conscious self... Registered Senior Member

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    When was this? What episode/book/whatever?
     

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