The Orgin of God

(Bear with me, this is a Thought Experiment)

As Time Progresses, there are two possible outcomes, with regards to the Human Race: That Humans continue to exist and that humans cease to exist.

Of the two, the one wherein we cease, is Not Interesting, and therefore may be ignored.

Let us look at the Other One: Wherein Humans continue to exist.

There are three possibilities here that are Interesting: that Humans continue to exist, but do not Change (evolve) -- a sort of "Human Steady-State". That humans "de-evolve" (But this is the essentially the same as the earlier outcome, wherein humans cease to exist). That Humans Evolve with Time.

It can be shown, by the past, that Humans DO Change over time, so this outcome is Likely.

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Looking at Statistics, and the Likelihood that lead us to Human Existence, one could conclude it was Very Unlikely that the Universe gave rise to Humans At All. That is, it is by the merest chance that We Exist at all.

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Postulate: if Humans Continue to Evolve, and given enough Time, what if Humans Evolved beyond the need for Physical Existence? And, what if by doing so, humans were now beyond the Limits of the Physical Universe as well?

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If it is indeed True, that it is/was Very Unlikely that We Came to Exist, and that someday, we evolve beyond physical constraints of the Universe, would it not also follow that at least some of our distant descendants will Realize this? And be in a position to make certain that Human Existence Happens?

It also follows, that this(these) distant decedent(s) would use a Method that is Far beyond what we can Understand today ...

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Therefore, one could conclude:
- Humans Are Becoming God.
- Humans Are God.
- We Are God: God Is Us.

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(Idle Food For Thought, around the drinking fountain ...

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Well, like you said, this is a thought experiment, so I guess it would be kindda harsh to imply/conclude that mankind is or is becoming God... That wasn't exactly the conclusion I expected. But the thought you're presenting isn't all that far off. Humans could be able to exceed human physics in the future. And that would eventually make us into Homo Superior, although not superior to other species living elsewhere in the universe. Sorry, I know this wasn't meant to be a sci-fi thread.

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i persnally dont like the idea 'humans are 'God' cause many dont even take time to study history of the CONCEPT of this 'God'

 

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It's because you can't handle the fuckin truth.

 

This is some far-out stuff... Everything we're made of, the DNA that makes us what we are, is made of matter. How do we evolve beyond that?

Also, its pointless to speculate at the odds of us ever existing. The point is, whatever happened, happened as a direct result of a pattern thats been unfolding since the beginning of the universe; Nothing truly happens at random whether we like to believe it or not. Any interference from a post-human being to insure humanity's existence would create a huge paradox.

 

I know... What're saying is entirely true, but who knows what the future holds...?

 

I do not know.

However, it IS quite clear that Humans have been interfering with their own evolution since we've developed language and culture. We tend to mate with "like" individuals, which "weeds out" unlike individuals. We now have the technology to extend adult life far beyond the "breeding age". We have the tech to allow our weaker physical individuals to live and to reproduce. I could go on, but you get the point: we are affecting our own evolution even now.

Then, there is the "improvements" that we may choose to make. Artificial physical and mental enhancements are already being used by nearly everyone. (What is a car, but an artificial set of faster "legs". What is a computer or hand calculator, but an artificial extension of your mind. So what if they're external, they are still physical/mental enhancements, with more to come.) Who knows what these enhancements may lead to.

And that is partly the point, really.

It is hardly pointless to speculate the odds at all. The mere fact that we are able to speculate, should be reason enough to do so at some point.

Outside of religion, one may say that our very reason to exist at all, is just for that sort of speculation.

You are correct, that it happened, and we are here, and that this is a fiat accomply.

However, I must strenuously disagree that "nothing truly happens at random" as you (or anyone else, for that matter) has yet to show any sort of proof that the Universe is not a series of random chances.

 

We have absolutely no knowledge of what there was before the universe, and no concrete knowledge as to how it came to be, so yes, we can't actually say that the universe didn't come into existence by chance. However, from our understanding of the physics of the universe so far, nothing can truly be random; everything happens for a reason, even your thoughts, which you may percieve as random. Think about it, do you know of an event that has truly happened at random?

However, if humans are able to exist outside the constraints of the Universe as you described, and that's a big if, then who knows? The way we think and precieve the world is governed by the restraints of the universe.

 

Chance is merely a word that people use to conceal their ignorance of the real causes.

We don't need to do anything to evolve, life does not use energy to evolve, we only use energy when we resist the truth (ourselves) in order to not evolve.

There is nothing beyond the physical.

 

Well said.

God, like chance, is merely a human concept and another way people conceal their ignorance.

 

This in mind, if we are too become God, and there is in fact a God in existence now, did he evolve from us? And what will HE evolve into?

Perhaps it's circular, a game of rock paper scissors. Perhaps God will evolve into nothingness as we evolve into he, and from nothingness he might evolve into somethingness, or we. Or perhaps there's more steps than that, like an endless staircase that goes on forever because, whether we realise it or not, it falls back unto itself. What did the things we evolve from evolve from? What will the thing we evolve into evolve into?

Everything that has a beginning has an end, but we don't seem to have a beginning do we? So logically we don't have an end. If we never end, then we must be redundant somehow.

 

You are thinking linearly.

The God that exists now, is the same God that I am speaking of: one-and-the same.

Remember the phrase "outside of Space and Time" - the God that we evolve into becoming is NOT subject to linear time flow, and may traverse all of History: past, present, future with equal ease. Perhaps, this new "conscionciousness" perceives ALL of time as a single "Now". That is, ALL of linear time/space is a single "moment" if you will, a single "present tense".

Thus, there IS no conflict with "a God in existence now" as it is/would be one and the same.

Try to think of the whole of the Universe's existence, from start to finish as a single "event".

 

Time for some logic.

How could it be that our descendants will make our existence "happen"? You have some serious temporal violations here.

In any case, what's more flawed, logically speaking, is your interesting non sequitor move: suddenly from this you move to introduce this concept "God" into your argument. Clarify your premisses and your argument, and perhaps specualtion can continue.

 

I think this's already gone on too long.

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The whole concept of it is pretty bogus. I'm still wondering how we evolve beyond the need for physical bodies. Suddenly, because we have more developed brains than other animals, we'll evolve beyond the laws of physics? There's no logic to back up this idea; its plain guessing as to what our future will be.

 

it's been seen in mythology and history, that whn people do no like life on earth they dream of escape from it. Joseph Campbell relates how in anceint Egypt at a time he calls 'The Great Reversal' the wiritings etc changed from one of joy of being alive to despai and lament, as their environment became embroiled in war, rapine, etc etc

Look also at the millenarian cults oppressed by the first world's empire, Rome. they too saw Earth and bodies as a trap. trpping their spirits from returning to teir 'spiritual home'

te various mystical schools and gnostics, all had similar ideas

and in materialistic culture, we have the modified dream of technology, and/or evolution fulfilling this patriarchal dream

 

The origin of gods is human psyche,
the idea of god is an ultimate archetype.

 

What are you talking about? In ancient Rome, all dead souls were trapped in the underworld as impotent larvae. The lucky were stripped of their memory and could live an ignorant existence in relative happyness. Most simply wandered the caverns deep beneith the earth barren of the pleasures and glories they once knew. Some were condemned to suffer truely sick and twisted punishments for all of eternety.

It was a common belief in those days that larvae wished to feed on human life essence to steal back hours or days of life.

 

Apparently, you learned a different version of physics that I was taught in college.

Looking deeply at quantum physics, it seems that most events are seriously driven by random-chance. But, I'm not a physics expert - however, two of my best friends have physics degrees, and would agree with my basic analysis.

To say that "nothing can truly be random" is an absolute statement that cannot be substiantiated. It smacks of determinism/predestination, which is a religious viewpoint, really.

 

You are thinking linearly, same as a previous poster.

If an existence can take place that is outside of the normal space/time continuum, and if that existence can still interact with space/time, then it follows that the interaction may take place at any point along the space/time vector.

Your notion of "temporal violations" is from the viewpoint of a linear view, from inside the space/time vector.

Try to think beyond 3-directional space/1 direction time. Then there is no violation at all.

 

I was using the classic description of "god" as "god is the origin of the universe" or as in "god is the original prime mover, the original primal force"

This is a very classic description of god, in many philosophies, and I thought it clear from what I wrote.

I was trying to point out, that if humans become sufficiently evolved, and if there is possible existence outside of physical reality, AND if that existence is still able to interact with physical reality ....

Given the low odds that Life on Earth happened at all ...

Wouldn't it follow that SOME busybody hyper-evolved human would so interact, at the earliest stages of the formation of the Universe, so as to ensure that Humans Come To Pass?

Wouldn't we (from our limited viewpoint) term such an interaction/interference an "act of God"?

It is totally NOT a non-sequitur, if you follow the logic/reasoning close enough: one follows the other neatly.

I admit I did leave out the assumption-train in my first post, but I thought they were pretty obvious .... (apparently not, it seems).