Please Geoff, this just makes you sound stupid and we all know that's not the case. Geoff, have you ever made a cell phone call on a plane moving at 500 KPH? 30,000 feet? That was the question I asked. Can a plane be tracked with the transponder turned off? [Geoff, of late you seem to have change countrys. I was under the impression you were American. Of late you've been using "mate", "Yanks", and did I see wanker in one of those post? Location: Undisclosed Locationsville, Whersitania, Dar al-Harb - then again - I just assumed.... ]
How does that relate to the case? Were the planes that high or not? Tracked by what? Radar? I would imagine so. [Geoff, of late you seem to have change countrys. I was under the impression you were American. Of late you've been using "mate", "Yanks", and did I see wanker in one of those post? Location: Undisclosed Locationsville, Whersitania, Dar al-Harb - then again - I just assumed.... ][/QUOTE] Is it only Americans living in America at the moment? Frankly, we use the terms "mate" and "Yanks" extensively in Dar-al-Harb. You're right, though, you did see a wanker in one of those posts. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
We are going to get transcripts of this, you know- That is, some of the CVR transcripts edited for brutality. Which I think should not be censored. If more of the American public understood whom we are dealing with, they could be isolated in a fortnight. Because these people are sinisterly outstanding. Everywhere. If you can approach people diplomatically, there remains the "six degrees of separation" rule. Which in reality is x to the y to the not to reason why, if you have influence. Welcome to the Orient Express, America. Next is the part when we sodomize you. But we are honest people, telling you before, during and after what occurs. Foreign policy inspired in Gitmo, you Friki Amriki. The Muslim War (Shi'a rebellion if you prefer) is going to rock our energy world, and deservedly so: I can see it coming. Can you?
I remember those crazy streets of Dar-al-Harb Where our motto is "Ahlan, wa Sahlan"- ya himaarb. No oil for you, Shayteebi. Can you hear me now, habeeby?
Hay , cell phones work on line of sight, and even a 1/2 w. will have a unexpedly long range at any altitude above 1000 ft. agl. and the altitude of these aircraft was aproxametly 1000 to 1500ft agl. during these attacks. I also have used cell phones on comercial flights, and was cleared by the flight attendents, the only ristriction I was informed of was during take off and landing, and this was signaled by the pilot over the intercom. ps; aircraft can be tracked with out transponder signal, we did it all the time against enemy aircraft, transponder only identify's your aircraft to ground control, or for IFF purposes so your own people hopefully don't shoot you down when your are coming home from a strike.
It is illegal to turn on a cell phone aboard an airliner from takeoff to landing, Buffalo Roam. You may be confusing cell phones with "portable electronic devices"(Ipods, gameboys, laptops), which are prohibited only during the takeoff and landing of airline flights. Only while the aircraft is on the ground can a flight attendant legally "clear" you to use a cell phone aboard an airliner. This is all confusing, especially once you learn the truth that cell phones have never been shown to present any navigational or communications interference issue aboard aircraft. Sometimes audio amplifiers do pick up their pinging for new towers (Bzzzt-bzt-bzt-bzt-bzt-bzt), as they do various other noisy-rf things. Something else brought this particular ban. Airlines and the FAA have a deep relationship. It seems very easy for behind-the-scenes interests to impose almost anything on the general public, if it can be proclaimed a safety measure. The cell phone ban provided the airlines with an exclusive new revenue stream with flight-phones. The ban was never an honest safety measure. Eventually this swindle will be publicly realized. But as in war, when we are lined up to become passengers, psychological techniques are deliberately applied that make many meek and unquestioning. We don't want to feel foolish as a people (in inflight cell usage and war) so we procrastinate in admitting having been hoodwinked for as long as possible. What a pity and a waste. "aircraft can be tracked with out transponder signal" That's known as "Primary RADAR"- like the little blips on the screen in old war movies. Primary Radar is often de-selected from controller screens, because of clutter it can induce. With primary radar there is no single-source altitude information, because only distance and azimuth (direction from the antenna) is detected. Primay radar is more susceptible to dropouts because of weather or terrain between the radar and the aircraft being tracked. Aircraft can be tracked with primary, but not nearly as well, and as you mentioned, discreet codes provide for airraft identification, and IFF during hostilities.
Hyperwaders then how do explane the fact that we in tracking enemy aircraft who most definatly do not want to give you a transponder signal, ( it would be like turning on a torch in a empty ocean) can get alttitude and range informaition to vector fighter, and missles to the interception point, I can, it very simple your azmuth radar and bearings radar form one leg of a triangle, add a little geometry, and vouela! you have alttitude and range, and then measure speed of angle change and you get speed of target! they have been doing this since WWII (with paper and pensil) to now with computer assist, any more Q's
Did I try to deny triangulation? No, I was only pointing out that the thousands of aircraft being shepherded around our skies are not tracked by primary radar; Transponders are essential, because primary radar has drawbacks that transponders obviate. Even IFF has evolved to the point where it can under specific circumstances be accomplished with no aircraft equipment installed. Not even a transp. Think about that one.
Here's your first clue: Look up at the sky. Smile and wave! In other words, it is child's play for the US Govt to track any aircraft continuously from takeoff to landing, using classified orbital sensor platforms.
Hyperwader what is your real life expearence with radar tracking of aircraft, pray tell, that makes you the sole expert? mine comes from being in the military, now retired 25 years, and this was technology that was availably then and I do beleave the technology has vastly improved since then. And you have even proved my point by your own words that IFF can be accomplished with out transponders onboard the aircraft, with computer assist if you know the point of orgin you can track and identify any aircraft you wish and then tell the system to continue to track, this information I got from a friend in Air Traffic Control, And this dosn't require satellite tracking. Also ATC very seldom uses primary radar alone, it's use as I understand it, is more as a base line to back track when nessary? Most radar now days is micro wave frequnce and with computer enhansment can accomplish these functions from one antenna, arn't computers wonderful? and no I'm not confuseing cell phones with other electronic equipment, and beside the flight crew was not in controal of the aircraft, and if I was aborde a aircraft that had just been hijacked I would definitly be trying to let someone know about it, also the crew had already tripped the transponder code siginaling a hijacking wich automatically targets the aircraft on the radar screen.
No Brian they wern't shot down, by the time the avalably fighters were scrambled all hijacked aircraft were down, the U.S. no longer kept a 24hr fighter CAP over the contintal United States, under Clinton this was suspended as a cost saving mesure for the goverment! under President Bush it has been reinstated, I wonder how much money Clinton save for us? I think the numbers were in the negative.
In the 1950s, we maintained a high state of ready pilots and aircraft for interception of Soviet ones. Times have changed long since then- and before Clinton came along. There was no fighter CAP over the entire USA when Clinton was elected. But during his term, the national deficit was eliminated, and the Bush Administration plunged us into debt like never before- So I don't quite understand your meaning. There is no national fighter CAP now, although certain political installations do have ADIZ. For the rest of the country right now under Bush, there is little difference in terms of actual ready-to-intercept-the-bad-guys interceptors. With our mideast troubles, there currently are thousands less interceptors and crews available to defend US borders, because they have been stretched to the breaking point in terms of foreign deployment. If you take a little time to comprehend the area involved, you will understand that a contiguous fighter CAP defending comprehensively against foreign and domestic threats is not feasible. Yes, we can scramble aircraft, but no they are not sitting in readiness to scramble anything anywhere in the US. Yes, we can see a lot: The DoD is enjoying a revolution in sensory technology. I'm aware of this because I've been around some, and I read some. I do have military background from the Cold War years (apparently we served together chronologically) and I'm a pilot. Out of curiousity and as an instructor, I've spent some time at both civilian and military ATC consoles, learning from controllers as they work. It seems as if you are trying to make some other point, but I don't know what it is. I've carefully read your posts here. Have you done the same with mine, Buffalo Roam?
No Wanta be's Hay Hypewaders, yes I do , and I enjoy them immensley, I feel that we are not to far apart in this discusion, Sorry about the Q's about your quall's, but to many time I have found that the people I'm talking to are a bunch of high school/ college kids with no experance, and practical knowledge, were did you serve, me I'm retired army, UH-1-H qualified, Vietnam 1970-71 -72, 1st Cav, 2nd Armor, 25th Infantry Div, 6th Air Cav Brigade, Texas, Germany, Hawii, Korea, we may have crossed pathes, I'm new to computers so if you know how to get me your email I would be happy to make friends, fiughting men need to take care of one another, If you ain't Cav you ain't shit, go get em, the Buffalo" ps: I finally translated you call sign, like fishing?
Yes! I now live near the East Branch of the Delaware/Western Catskills. But no, not cav: I was a Navy submariner, where we proclaimed that there were 2 types of fighting men: Submariners, and targets. I'm less boisterous now. That's very cool that you flew Hueys. I was stationed out of Spain, for sorties in the Med and Black Sea, 1980s.
I believe it was shot down . Especially when you consider the area the wreckage was spread over and that human remains were found in tree tops indicates a mid air explosion .
Brian Foley, I am sure that you believe what you have read but I know of no one in the area of the crash site which was an open field that had been stripped mine a few years before that think that the plane was shot down.
So now we know it wasn't, at least. Remains, planes, and bits of both bounce and get thrown around quite a bit when 250 tons hits the ground. No sale. Geoff
I cant argue with you as may know people in that area , but I have collected since that day certain news articles this one was from the 12th read what eyewitnesses say . Bodies bouncing into trees over a 2.5 km2 area , yaeh right . No prizes given here .
LMAO - lookie me! I'm an Illuminati! Or am I? We don't exist, you know. Please do collect your "certain news articles". With what air CAP exactly did they shoot the plane down? Yes, you pathetic git. Tell you what: you try and prove that can't happen, ok? No sale. Geoff
