For Taoists of sciforums: "Lessons" for Taoists...

Geetings all Taoists of sciforums...

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I'll be posting some things about Taoism here. If anyone has a koan, give it to me... I Love trying to decode those things...

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Love,
Nelson

 

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"Lesson"1: Tao Teh Ching Chapter1

Tao Teh Ching

Chapter 1

Chapter 1:1-2

"1. The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name.
2. (Conceived of as) having no name, it is the Originator of heaven and earth; (conceived of as) having a name, it is the Mother of all things."

This means that the Truth, the Tao, is beyond what we call material world. As it has no name, it has also no clear definition. It's manifestations are created by the Tao's peculiarities, when you focus your attention on one part of the Tao. This originates a name. Names creates definitions. They are full of definitions. If you give a name to something, it lose it's original Nature.

Summarizing... you can't call Tao Tao, because when you call Tao Tao, you are already creating an illusion. The Tao is nameless, and you have to discover it by yourself. Because once you name it, it loses its original Nature. Once you perceive it rationally, that is, with your mind, you lose its conception.


So how can you perceive it?

"3. Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see."

This means: forget about it. Forget that the Tao exists. Then, you will truly live in the Tao and understand it.


Story1: Forgetting the Tao

Zi Gong asked Confucius:
"Master, why do we have to live in the world and be bound by the rules of society?"

Confucius: If you want to live outside the world, that's fine too.

Zi Gong: How?

Confucius: Fish are only comfortable living in water. People are only comfortable living in the Tao. Free and unfettered in lakes and streams, fish forget that they live in water. Satisfied and happy in Nature, people forget about the existence of the Tao.
We live in the Tao!

Zi Gong: Tao? What Tao?

" We lose our carefree nature by separating our minds into cubicles and stuffing them full of knowledge. We should strive to break these boundaries and trasncend knowledge."


If we try to understand Tao with our head, we won't. Tao is umcomprehensible in words. You have to experience it. And it's through desirelesness and meditation that you attain it.


How the Universe is created by the Tao?

"4. Under these two aspects, it is really the same; but as development takes place, it receives the different names. Together we call them the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that is subtle and wonderful."

The two aspects that the text talks about are the two opposites. They are one in the Tao. Each one complementing each other. And as everything in the Universe has its opposite, the "two" here is in reality everything. All the Universe is reduced into two things, two Essencial Opposites.

Questions?
I guess I will just listen to your questions instead of posting all lessons (after all, people usually questions me...:bugeye: )

Love,
Nelson

 

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I will enjoy reading your posts. I am a student of Tai Chi. Take care and happy posting!

 

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Meghan,

If you have any question about Taoism, Tai Chi, Chi Gong or I Ching (or about them mixed...) you can ask... I have no idea what people have difficult with...

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Love,
Nelson

 

Thanks

As I just started taking actual classes, I am pretty new to the actual art, although I have been reading the text for a while. I think this is a great thread. I will be checking back.

 

Too many things to say...
I would like to listen to questions...

Anyways... Here's a second story:

Story2: Knowledge and the Tao

One day, a man named knowledge was on his way to the north when he ran into a fellow named Can't Say.

Knowledge: Excuse me, could you tell me how to think in order to understand the Tao, how to act in order to live at peace in the Tao, and how to attain the Tao?

Can't Say: I can't say, I can't say, I can't say...

Not getting an answer, knowledge continued on to the south side of the white river, where he ran into Absurd.

Knowledge: Pardon me, I would like to ask a few questions. Namely, how to understand the Tao, how to live at peace in the Tao,and how to attain the Tao?

Absurd: I know... and I'd like to tell you... but, darn it, I forgot what I was going to say...

Still unable to get an answer, Knowledge went to see the yellow emperor.

Emperor: Don't conscioulsly think, and you'll understand the Tao. Don't conscioulsly act, and you'll live at peace in the Tao, don't consciously try, and you'll attain the Tao.

Knowledge: Okay, now you and I know this, but why is it that Can't Say and Absurd don't know?

Emperor: Oh, there you are mistaken. They DO know! Can't Say is one with the Tao, and Absurd isn't far away. It is you and I who still have a long way to go.

Conclusion:
"The man named Knowledge was of the realm of words, while Absurd was of the realm of language without words, and can't say was of the real of no mind, no words. The Tao cannot be understood through words alone."

I'm like Absurd. That's why I still can use words to tell you...

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It's hard to pass this information in words because I don't use words to understand them.... I have to adapt my language to this understanding in order to pass the message along...

That's one of my favorite stories. It tells everything about the Tao in a simple way. That's Wisdom. Knowledge can't explain you exactly how the Tao is. But Wisdom can. And Wisdom come from experience.

Any questions?

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Love,
Nelson

 

TruthSeeker:

Greetings.

So how exactly are you like Absurd? In the tale, Absurd doesn't talk about the Tao because he forgot what he was going to say. Then you further describe him as 'language without words .
Then you explain that you are like Absurd, and this is why you are trying to use words to explain the Tao.

Hmmm, sounds absurd to me.

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noktvs,

You understood...

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PS: If you look to my posts, you can see that I mostly use metaphors, parables and allegories to pass my message. My rational mind is slowly fading out...

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Love,
Nelson

 

I have a question:

How many mindless, irrational, new-age fluffs does it take to change a light bulb?

The answer?

none, because they think they have done it already, but when the light goes out, they won't be able to see anymore.

<evil-grin>

 

I to am studying Tai chi and have been for many years, also the teachings of lao-tzu
The Disease Of Knowledge
To know the unknowable that is elevating. Not to know the knowable,that is sickness. Only by becomming sick of sickness, can we be without sickness.The saga is not sick because he is sick of sickness, therefore he is not sick.
Forgetting Knowledge
They who seek learnedness will daily increase. They who seek reason will daily diminish. They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion.
With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot achive.When they take the empire,it is always because they use no diplomacy.They who use diplomacy are not fit to take the empire.

 

BLASTOFF,

Yeah...

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That's awesome...

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Kmguru,

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For both,

Your comments are hightly appreciated.

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Be free to post "lessons" too!

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Love,
Nelson

 

Wait a minute, isn't this saying exactly the opposite of what Nelson has been trying to argue? If I understand this passage correctly it is saying that those who use reason (i.e. the rational mind) eventually are able to do anything. "there is nothing that they cannot acheive".

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To me this passage is saying that "seeking learnedness" (i.e. mere book-knowledge) just fills you up and isn't edifying, but "seeking reason" (i.e. using your rational mind) is edifying and the path you should take when following the Tao, similar I think to what kmguru is saying:

 

noktvs,

It's the opposite you said...

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Those who use reason and rational thoughts to explain the Universe will eventualy be lost in an ocean of data... they will be so confused that they will arrive at non-assertion...

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Love,
Nelson

 

kmguru,
Thanks for the compliment on the web-site.

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I admit I have neglected it for about a year, but have just recently been working on more material to post there. If you have anything you want me to put up (pictures, essays, rants, etc) let me know and I'll be glad to do so. Or if you have a site, I will link to it.

Nelson,

No, no, no, you have it all wrong! The point of the Tao IS to diminish, like the water that seeks the lowest level, or the vessel whose emptiness is its usefullness. If it was the other way around why would the next verse be saying:

"They will diminish and continue to diminish until they arrive at non-assertion. With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot acheive"?

 

noktvs,

This "cannot" means that anything the "they" want they can achieve... read carefully...

It is "With non-assertion there is nothing that they cannot achieve" not "With non-assertion there is nothing that they can achieve"...

Love,
Nelson

 

Nelson,

I AM reading carefully, it appears you are the one who's confused. Look again at what I said:

"Wait a minute, isn't this saying exactly the opposite of what Nelson has been trying to argue? If I understand this passage correctly it is saying that those who use reason (i.e. the rational mind) eventually are able to do anything ."

your response was:

then you contradict yourself and say:

So first you say it's the opposite of what I'm saying, then you misinterpret what I said to mean something completely different. So, going off of your last comment, and now that I have clarified the meaning of my original statement, are you saying you agree with me, and with this passage, that those who use their rational mind will eventually be able to acheive whatever they want?

 

Another Taoist lesson

Tao Te Ching
Chapter 5:

"Heaven and earth do not act from any wish to be benevolent;
they deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with.
The sages do not act from (any wish to be) benevolent;
they deal with the people as the dogs of grass are dealt with."

My take on this is that the "sage" (i.e. the wise one who follows the Tao), when dealing with "the people" (i.e. the general population), should not base his or her actions on any desire or emotion or even the motives of trying to help or love them. Rather, they should just be like the Tao (which is described in the first verse as "Heaven and Earth") and "deal with all things as the dogs of grass are dealt with", meaning not to take them into consideration. In other words, the sages should align themselves with nature (the Tao), which just is what it is.

 

noktvs,

I meant that those who use reason are not eventually "able to do anything"...

As it's said...

They will diminish with reason until they can achieve nothing...

Chapter 8:

"The highest excellence is like (that of) water. The excellence
of water appears in its benefiting all things, and in its occupying,
without striving (to the contrary), the low place which all men
dislike. Hence (its way) is near to (that of) the Tao.

Love is like water...

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Water is one of the images of Love. Other is fire, because it warms us up. Wind is other, because it's gentle. Willow is other, because it's flexible and harmonic. You can see all those images in Taoism.

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Love,
Nelson