Okay atheists, we need a meaning of life.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Nebula, May 30, 2002.

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  1. Nebula Occasionally Frequent Registered Senior Member

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    Alright fellow atheists, I want into your brains. For the sake of argument, let's say that it is FACT that no god exists (this is to render certain people's posts useless

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    ). Let's assume that life, whatever that is, magically appeared when certains chemicals and whatnot decided to unite. Why did the first single cell of conventionally-defined "life" decide to form? Why didn't nature just like to exists all as separate elements? Being that you are atheists, I know you will use pure logic and reasoning to rip this apart

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    .

    Oh and Truthseeker, please refrain from telling us that the elements loved each other a lot or something okay?

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  3. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    The first organic cells did not "decide" to become. You get enough common organic compounds in common conditions throughout the universe, and eventually all sorts of combinations and effects will occur. Boom, life! The only difference between organic moleules and cells is time. The only difference between cells and us is time.

    Why didn't all the elements remain separate? Physics. Chemistry. You get one element with a "hole", an electron short, and another element with an extra to donate, and boom, you've got molecules.

    The meaning of life? Different for each of us.
     
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  5. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    It's our job as humans to figure stuff out. So why not figure out if there's meaning too? Can't hurt to try.
     
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  7. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    AOL to Dr.Evyl's comments!

    " Let's assume that life, whatever that is, magically appeared when certains chemicals and whatnot decided to unite."

    Magically? Not magic, just the natural consequence of physical laws.

    "Why did the first single cell of conventionally-defined "life" decide to form?"

    Decide? It did not decide. Pure chance and the evolutionary process "created" it.

    "Why didn't nature just like to exists all as separate elements?"

    Nature has no likes or dislikes, it just is.

    "Being that you are atheists, I know you will use pure logic and reasoning to rip this apart ."

    Done.

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  8. thoth Registered Member

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    I would first try to comprehend what exactly constitutes "Life".
    A barren rock travelling in space could be deemed to have life, it has momemtum, gravitational effects, potential energy, mass etc.
    Now take a planet with an atmosphere and its associated by products, would you say that the planet is alive or have life or must life be "organic".
    I propose that the Universe is alive and that the meaning of life is to continue to perpetuate life so that an infinite variaty of possibilities can exist.
     
  9. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    I think Adam and Xev summed up the why part pretty well.

    As far as the "meaning of life" is concerned: Meaning indicates purpose or intent which indicate conscious direction. If life is a chance occurrence guided only by physical and biological principles the meaning of life doesn't exist in an objective sense. It's like asking, "What is the meaning of a snowflake?"

    Subjectively, life can have any meaning the individual decides upon.

    Of course, the question itself is revealing for consciousness must necessarily exist for the question to exist. One might say the answer is the question. The paradox reminds me of a Zen koan.

    ~Raithere
     
  10. Voodoo Child Registered Senior Member

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    It is not Atheists that need a reason to exist. Or more correctly, they are not unique in facing the problem of absurdity. The existence of God does not really effect life's meaning or futility. Meaning is a value and values have no justification. The nature of values is that they have no reason for being held. They just are.

    As people have pointed out it is anthropomorphic to use terms like "decided" to describe the behaviour of chemical compounds. "behaviour"? Fuck. Now you've got me doing it. A protein will fold a certain way because of fundamental forces, two chemicals will bond for the same reason.
     
  11. Mr. G reality.sys Valued Senior Member

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    The purpose, the meaning, of Life is: to live life--be alive.

    Everything else is a waste of easily distracted brain waves.
     
  12. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Originally posted by Dr. Evil:
    That's the meaning of Life...

    Life is what we make of it
    Life just IS


    In Mother Teresa's words:

    Life is an opportunity, avail it.
    Life is a beauty, admire it.
    Life is a bliss, taste it.
    Life is a dream, realize it.
    Life is a challenge, meet it.
    Life is a duty, complete it.
    Life is a game, play it.
    Life is costly, care for it.
    Life is a wealth, keep it.
    Life is love, enjoy it.
    Life is mystery, know it.
    Life is a promise, fulfil it.
    Life is sorrow, overcome it.
    Life is a song, sing it.
    Life is a struggle, accept it.
    Life is a tragedy, brace it.
    Life is an adventure, dare it.
    Life is life, save it!
    Life is luck, make it.
    Life is too precious, do not destroy it.


    Mother Teresa


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    Hope you enjoy your Life...

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  13. dan1123 Registered Senior Member

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    Actually what I would like to know.

    What I want to know from the atheists here is if you believe there is a purpose to life that is universal to every human, and if so, what is it?

    I don't mean a purpose like, "do what you want." Or "have fun and enjoy life." I mean a purpose that is for human life itself, beyond an individual's whim. And to be valid, of course, such a purpose must have some explanation of human desires beyond survival and self-gratification. Those are too basic for the question. If you see no desires beyond survival and self-gratification, I think you should think about why you are even reading such a forum.
     
  14. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Nebula,

    Elements loving each other...?

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    What the...?

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    You have only 5 posts and you already know me?

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    I guess I have to get my ass out of this chair sometimes...

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    I'll take some holidays soon...

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  15. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Only the mind needs a reason to exist.
    Life is simple.
    It just IS.

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  16. Nebula Occasionally Frequent Registered Senior Member

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    Twisted

    Truthseeker: I've been a-lurking for awhile and am starting to see a pattern in your posts and reasoning!

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    Hmm, perhaps my question was a bit cloudy. I didn't mean a philosophical "meaning" of life. I mean a purely biological one. Maybe this question belongs more in the Bio forum huh?

    Oh well, I'll try again. Basically, why does nature try to live? By life I mean any chemical system that:
    a) can reproduce (a rock can't, unless you split it in half really)
    b) has interdependence between chemicals and relies on those chemical reactions to build itself, feed itself, reproduce etc.

    This is a better way of asking it: Why is our purpose to reproduce? Why does life in general try to reproduce? Something more than to propogate the species. Why is it the purpose of the species to ensure its survival?

    Adam:
    I will refrain from using personification in the future.

    Xev:
    Okay okay fine, magic might not be the right word. It was used purely for expression and I didn't mean actual magic.

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    Okay, I promise to you also to never personify nature again

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    .

    Hmm, maybe i'll just drop this whole thread

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  17. dan1123 Registered Senior Member

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    okay, Xev's purpose is for the Wings to win the Stanley cup... not quite a universal purpose-of-humanity statement, but everyone's entitled to their opinion.

    Anyone else?
     
  18. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Nebula:

    Okay, thanks for the clarification.

    I think you are trying to ascribe meaning to a meaningless action. Why is it the purpose of the species to ensure its survival? I don't think there is a demonstable purpose.

    It is that way simply because it is that way.

    Edit to add:
    Dan:
    I'm being sardonic, dumb-dumb. The Wings are my purpose - hockey itself is humanity's purpose.

    There is no purpose.

     
    Last edited: May 31, 2002
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Nebula,

    <i>Why is our purpose to reproduce? Why does life in general try to reproduce? Something more than to propogate the species. Why is it the purpose of the species to ensure its survival?</i>

    A species does not have a purpose. Individual members of a species have purposes (sometimes).

    Animals (including humans) try to reproduce because it is enjoyable to do so. Sex is fun. Most animals do not know of the connection between sex and reproduction. They just have sex because it feels good. So, we must ask: why does sex feel good?

    The answer to that question is simply this: consider two groups of animals (or people). Group 1 finds sex fun and wants to do it a lot. Group 2 is not interested in sex because it is not fun for them. The genes of either group determine whether sex is an enjoyable experience.

    Come back several generations later and what do you expect to find? Answer: Group 2 will have failed to reproduce and died out. Group 1 will have bred like rabbits, and the whole gene pool will be dominated by animals (or people) who enjoy sex.

    That's why sex is fun and why life tries to reproduce. The life that didn't try to reproduce is simply not around any more.
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Why?

    I would actually say that, even with biology considered, it's still a philosophical question.

    As to a purpose for life, Adam, actually, is closest.

    If we stick to the observable, there is no living phenomenon in the Universe quite like humanity. I know that grates on a lot of people's nerves, but in the observable, there are no little gray men in sport-model saucers.

    It would seem, therefore, that what is unique about humanity is the degree of self-awareness and the sense of comparison that awareness demands.

    We are the eyes and ears of the Universe. What we experience, it experiences. What we see, hear, taste, touch, smell, feel ... so, too, does the Universe. Consider that without humanity, nothing in the Universe could fall in love, yet we see the chemical reactions existing in the Universe so that people can fall in love. No part of the Universe can know any other, except through the compilation and comparison of apparent data. Human beings are, at least, a suitable instrument for this exploration. As we evolve, so, too, will our perspective. As long as humans are in the Universe, we can guarantee that someone will be examining the Universe through a process not recognized anywhere else.

    A couple of notes on the topic:
    I'd rather say it does. Take, for instance, the Christian God. Life goes from a natural part of the Universe to a pointless racket if that God exists.
    For the purposes of the debate, the point has been addressed. I consider life an inevitability of a balance of matter and energy. All differentiation in the Universe is a mere matter of ratios.

    However, if you look at, say, a Periodic Table, you'll notice that working in a given direction (I forget which), one can follow the return of an original element to a ground state. Theoretically, nature existed as one element (per se), exploded into many, and is dissipating as we speak. Eventually, that differentiation will settle out. In an expanding-Universe scenario, matter will eventually be sparse enough that differentiation will eventually cease, and only one material/energetic state will remain.

    That is to say that as the diversity of substance fades, it will be replaced by a singular style. Watch humanity, you can see the same process taking place in a different form.

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    Lighten the hell up, people. Such rhetorical paranoia is laughable.

    For the record, it is this sort of thing that observably results from subjective objectivity. I mean, really ... Xev, Adam ... this duck-and-weave method is less than hilarious. It's shameful and disgusting.

    To take this aside for a moment, since it's sitting right in front of me, this symptomatic inability to communicate is part of the reason I left atheism behind. It's what happens when one becomes too subjectively objective. I mean, crap, can you not answer a question or address an issue unless it meets your presentation standards? Are there any other polls we should rewrite to your accommodation in the meantime? Any other self-centered foci we should make a topic out of?

    Adam: What, for instance, was so damn hard about your second post? Why waste that many more lines correcting someone's phraseology? Seriously: your second post was right on. Why waste time with the first? Less than a third of it is worth anything.
    Wishing for what things that ain't? Like society? After all, survival and self-gratification. I'm hungry and I'm horny. Oh, hey, the one's cute and she stopped at the grocery store. What will the headlines say when I leave her hurt in the bushes? Woman contributes to meaning of life? No, it will use ugly words like "rape" and "victimization".

    Survival and self-gratifiction ... hey, it doesn't matter if I hurt her, and hey, I'm gratified afterwards, right? It's just like nature, right? Take what you want?

    Sorry, it's the first counterpoint that springs to mind.

    Nonetheless, it is a valid assertion worth considering. As I asked another, what the hell was so hard about getting to that point in your first response?

    Nebula ... it's a good topic, despite the self-defeating title (long story ... it requires the whole of Sciforums' library as pertains to atheism). I'll try to put better detail to the actual response portion when I'm not so damned distracted, but that's the way the day goes.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  21. Voodoo Child Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa:

    You've misconstrued my comment and understood exactly what it means at the same time. I was addressing the idea that the existence of God provides meaning for us, but that in reality it is the pointless racket that you describe. Not that the world of the philosophical naturalist is any less of a pointless racket.

    Do you mean humanity as in homo sapiens or humanity as in self-aware, intelligent beings? It seems to me that the former is not necessarily unique. ala functionalism. Depends also on whether you mean observable as in naturalistically verifiable or within our body of knowledge to date.


    It is hyper-militant materialism rather than atheism. The point, I think, was that if life decided to exist it has implications for determining our purpose. In deciding to exist there would be reasons justifying it. And through those reasons we might find purpose. We think that is a non-starter. Wouldn't the inability to communicate would be exacerbated by subjectivism? Do you mean that objectivism is another subjective viewpoint or that we are subjective in what we apply objectivity to?

    The only thing that separates consciousness from the rest of the universe is that consciousness. Consicousness ultimately ascribes meaning to itself. Unless it doesn't. Which is the question

    Nebula:

    Nature doesn't always try to live. However, all the nature that didn't try to live isn't here. All the non-sustainable ecosystems died, all the plants that didn't photosynethese karked it.
     
  22. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Nebula,

    Good...!

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    Life is conscience.

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    Lfe is wonderful and is always recreating Itself, always inovating.

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  23. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    while existing we create our purpose - says me
     
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