The Quara'm

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Godless, May 24, 2002.

  1. ismu ::phenomenon::. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    468
    Re: Godless, Ismu ... um .. yeah. If it makes sense, good.

    tiassa, Sorry for late to respond.
    Qur'an is believed by muslims as the last miracle remains, wich we can see by our own eyes. The last proof remains for muslims can verify. The first priority of law for muslims should follow.

    It contains histories (wich sometimes called as fairy tales by atheist) to learn from mistakes and right things has done by people in the past, so our feet won't fall into the same holes while walking our lives.

    That important Qur'an for muslims. So if we, or someone else found some defect in it, of course it gonna very bugging. Perhaps some foney claims doesn't really matter for moslem's faith who has find the basic philosphy of the Qur'an. But muslim also have duty to spread right information about islam and qur'an of course (da'wah).

    The other duty is to defend ourselves, out rights and our propery against attack (jihad). So, if there is someone spread wrong information about qur'an, which is obviously attacks integrity of qur'an by words, we should defend it by words. This is what I've done while respond Godless's 1st post, wich seems pointed to me, and other muslims.

    If someone attack our home, family, or country; we should fight back as we can do. Islam love peace and honor to others. But muslims also should not flee from challenge.

    I can see that this thread doesn't sounds so intelectual, but I got to accomplish my duty to try spread right info against wrong info; even Godless seems supposed to grow older (or at least have better understanding) to handle this heavy subject.

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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Ismu

    Fair enough. I thank you.

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    Part of what I had in mind was the Sufis. While adhering to the Koran as the word of God, a Sufi will eventually abandon religious practice and observance. It simply gives a comparative standard, and hardly a firm one at that. Just a springboard for wondering.

    thanx much,
    Tiassa

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  5. Markx Registered Senior Member

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    godless

    What you failed to see is that, all those sites have very detailed and very simple explanation of those so called errors. If you notice people who produce those errors are mostly copy and past them from other websites. No one bother to go and read it by them self or try to get a "Tasfir" ( Detail revelations and their meanings) And it does not mean another version of Quran. Now I don't expect you read any of those details but then you shouldn't claim that there are contradictions, Since you don't know. If I claim that there are contradictions in Bible then I can back it up by saying that I spend 4-5 years just studying bible and if not all then 70% of those contradictions are geniune. 10 or 15 contradictions in Bible are not even explainable. They failed to explain them. Anyways, my request to you is, if you haven't read it and you don't know what it means then you can't say that there are contradictions.

    Peace.
     
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  7. Markx Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Re: Godless, Ismu ... um .. yeah. If it makes sense, good.

    Asalam O Alykum

    Well said ISMU. I hope you checked that Secular link, it was mirza baig qadiyani's link. Well I will try to send you more info later.
     
  8. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    **Warning long post**(why I left Islam)

    The following are muslims who'v abandoned thier religion:

    Introduction
    Conversions, apostates, and free-thinkers

    Muslims are triumphalists especially when they parrot the journalistic cliché that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, or when they present the testimony of someone who has "embraced Islam;" Islam, "that least huggable of faiths," as Rushdie calls it[1]. Frithjof Schuon, a Western convert to a mystical variety of Islam explains the Muslim mindset:

    The intellectual–and thereby the rational–foundation of Islam results in the average Muslim having a curious tendency to believe that non-Muslims either know that Islam is the truth and reject it out of pure obstinacy, or else are simply ignorant of it and can be converted by elementary explanations; that anyone should be able to oppose Islam with a good conscience quite exceeds the Muslims’ power of imagination, precisely because Islam coincides in his mind with the irresistible logic of things[2].

    Despite appearances, the fact remains thousands have left Islam behind along with other childish beliefs from Father Christmas to the Tooth Fairy. A few courageous souls have not only resisted the "irresistible" but braving family and friends, social ostracism, mob violence, and state assassinations and executions, have also come out of the closet, and have made their unbelief a matter of public record: Salman Rushdie, Taslima Nasrin, Anwar Shaikh, Ali Sina, Mahmoud, Syed Mirza Ali, Mohsen, to name some of them.

    There was a remarkable article translated from the Algerian Arabic Daily, al-Yawm and published in the Courrier International[3] recently. It shows that the deterioration of the image of Islam during the Algerian crisis has played its part in the rise of conversions to Christianity and the adoption of its principles. What is happening and what has happened in Algeria, such as the massacres and killings [in the holy month of Ramadan, December, 2000, alone, 340 people were killed, making a total of 2700 killed by the Islamists in the year 2000. Source CI.No.531] in the name of Islam, has led many, when asked what the difference, in their view, was between Islam and Christianity, to declare: "Christianity is life, Islam is death." For Samia, a secondary school pupil, the proof of the difference between Islam and Christianity was the mixing and relationship between the sexes, the former forbidding it, and the latter allowing it. One church alone recorded 50 baptisms a year; and this in a country where a woman wearing lipstick could result in an entire family, elderly women and children included having their throats cut. Apostasy is punishable by death under Islamic Law.

    Ernest Renan was once asked whether it was true that he had, on abandoning Catholicism, embraced Protestantism. He replied testily, "It was my faith that I lost and not my reason." Here we are not celebrating those who have left one form of unreason only to adopt another form of unreason, but those who face unflinchingly a world devoid of fantasy, who look the world in the face without the crutches of irrational dogma.

    We wish to encourage ex-Muslims to declare themselves, to liberate themselves, to make them take conscience of the fact that there are many who think like them, and who have taken the same lonely road to rationalism, and humanism.

    Rest assured that we will jealously guard your secret. You may wish to submit your testimony anonymously, that is perfectly understandable and honourable even. For many ex-Muslims living in the West often travel back to the Islamic country of their birth, where they still have close relatives who themselves might be endangered by the apostates public declaration.

    Here are some guidelines if you wish to write a testimonyl, but of course you have no obligation to follow any of them. If you know exactly what you want to say, just write directly on our website.

    Were your parents religious?

    What was their mother tongue?

    Did they know Arabic?

    How often did they go to the Mosque?

    Education: did you go to Koranic school?

    Do you understand Arabic?

    Did you read the Koran? Did you understand it?

    When did you start questioning religion? Islam?

    Was there someone who encouraged you in your freethought?

    Were you influenced by any book?

    Were freethought books available to you at home? In town? At friends’?

    Do your parents know about your present feelings?

    Does anyone else in your family or circle of friends know?

    What is their reaction?

    Do you feel threatened?

    Have you been attacked physically for your beliefs?

    How would you describe yourself now?

    a) atheist b ) humanist c) rationalist d ) agnostic e ) deist f) secularist?

    18. Perhaps a mixture of the above (e.g. some call themselves "atheist humanists," others "secular humanists")

    Looking forward to reading your testimonies. Remember they can be powerful agents of change, and a source of inspiration and solace for others.

    Good Luck.

    To get you started and to inspire you we have included the personal testimony of the distinguished freethinker, ex-Muslim, Dr. Ali Sina. This testimony was first published on his website: http://www.golshan.com/RationalThinking/testimonials.htm


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [1] S.Rushdie, The Ground Beneath Her Feet, Henry Holt: New York, 1999. p.74
    [2] Frithjof Schuon, Stations of Wisdom, (London, John Murray, 1961), p. 64, n 1
    [3]: El Youm [ al-Yawm ], Algiers, reprinted in Courrier International No.531 4 -10 January, 2001, p.29. Trans. from French by Ibn Warraq.


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    Why I Left Islam
    I am often asked, Why I left Islam?. As absurd as it may be, some Muslims cannot even allow themselves to think that leaving Islam is an option, or even possible. They rather think that those who leave Islam are paid Jewish agents than accept the fact that people have freedom to think and some may even think that Islam is not for them. The following are my reasons.

    Not until few years ago I used to think that my faith in Islam was not based on blind imitation but rather was the result of years of investigation and research. The fact that I had read a lot of books on Islam, written by people whose thoughts I approved of and delving into philosophies that were within my comfort zone, emphasized my conviction that I had found the truth. All my bias research confirmed my faith. Just like other Muslims I used to believe that to learn about anything one has to go to the source. Of course the source of Islam is Quran and the books written by Muslim scholars. Therefore, I felt no need to look elsewhere in order to find the truth, as I was convinced that I have already found it. As Muslims say “Talabe ilm ba’d az wossule ma’loom mazmoom”. The search of knowledge after gaining it is foolish

    Of course, this is a foolish idea. What if we want to learn the truth about one of these dangerous cults? Is it enough to depend only on what the cult leader and his deluded followers say? Wouldn’t it be prudent to widen our research and find out what other people have to say about them? Going to the source makes sense only in scientific matters, because scientists are not “believers”. They do not say something because they have blind faith. Scientists make a critical analysis of the evidence. It is very much different from religious approach that is based entirely on faith and belief.

    I suppose it was my acquaintance with the western humanistic values that made me more sensitive and whet my appetite for democracy, freethinking, human rights, equality, etc. It was then that when I read again Quran I came across injunctions that were not al par with my newfound humanistic values, I was distressed and felt very uncomfortable to read teachings like these.

    Q.3: 5
    ”But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have gone astray”.

    Q.16: 106
    ”Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.”

    One may think that the dreadful penalty mentioned here pertains to the next word. But Muhammad made sure that these people received their penalty in this world as well. See the following:

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:

    I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 260:

    Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 261:

    Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you sh ould join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails, which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died.

    And from Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4339

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who commits murder for which he is killed.

    The following is very disturbing. I dare to say any man who read it and is not taken aback with disgust has a long way to go to become a human.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348

    ”Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
    A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
    He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
    He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
    Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood".

    I felt the above story was a manifest injustice. Muhammad condoned a man killing a pregnant mother and his own unborn child just because he said that she insulted him!?

    (Arabs used to sleep with their maid slaves. Quran perpetuates this tradition Q.33: 52 “It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things.” Muhammad himself slept with Mariyah the maid slave of Hafsa his wife without marrying her.)

    Forgiving someone for killing another human being just because he said she insulted Muhammad is unacceptable. What if that man was lying to escape punishment? What dose this story say about Muhammad’s sense of Justice? Imagine how many innocent women, were killed by their husbands during these 1400 years who escaped punishment accusing their murdered wives of blaspheming the prophet of God and this Hadith has made them get away with it.

    Here is another one.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4349

    Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
    A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.

    It was not easy to read these stories and not be moved. There is no reason to believe that all these stories were fabricated. Why should believers, who have tried to depict their prophet as a compassionate man fabricate so many stories that would make him look like ruthless tyrant?

    I could no more accept the brutal treatment of those who chose not to accept Islam. Faith is a personal matter. I could no more accept that the punishment of someone who criticizes any religion must be death.

    See how Muhammad dealt with the unbelievers.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4359

    Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
    The verse "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite side or exile from the land...most merciful" was revealed about polytheists. If any of them repents before they are arrested, it does not prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment, which he deserves.”

    How could a messenger of God maim and crucify people on the account that they resist accepting him? Could such person be really a messenger of God? Wasn’t there a better man with more moral an ethical fortitude to bear this mighty responsibility?

    I could not accept the fact that Muhammad slaughtered 900 Jews in one day, after he captured them in a raid that he started. I read the following story and I shivered.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390

    Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
    I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair

    Also I found following story shocking.

    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4396

    Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
    A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his foot.
    So his (left) foot was cut off.
    He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him.
    The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
    So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.)
    He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him.
    The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
    So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.
    He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him.
    So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.

    Seems that Muhammad passed judgment before hearing the case. Also by cutting a thief’s hand he is left with no other means to earn his bread except begging, which would be difficult since he is defamed as a thief and so hated by people. Therefore re-offending becomes his only means of livelihood.

    After living many years in the West and being received kindly by people of other religions or of no religion, who loved me and accepted me as their friend; who let me into their lives and their heart. I could no more accept the following mandates of Quran as the words of God.

    Q.58: 22
    “You will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger…”

    Q.3: 118-120
    “O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e., you believe in the Tawraat and the Injeel, while they disbelieve in your Book (the Qur’aan)]. And when they meet you, they say, ‘We believe.’ But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: ‘Perish in your rage. Certainly Allaah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).’ If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it…”

    And

    Q.5: 51
    “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya’ (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya’ to one another…”

    I also found the above statement false. The evidence is in the Bosnia and Kosovo crisis; where Christian countries, waged war against another Christian country, to liberate Muslims. Many Jewish doctors volunteered to help the Kosovar refugees, despite the fact that during the WWII, the same Albanian Muslims took side with Hitler and helped him in his holocaust against the Jews.

    It became obvious to me that Muslims are accepted by all the people of the world yet our prophet wants us to hate them, to disassociate ourselves from them, to force them into our way of life or kill them, subdue them and make them pay Jizya. How silly! How pathetic! How inhumane! No wonder there is so much inexplicable hate of the West and of the Jews among Muslims. It was Muhammad who inseminated the hate and the distrust of the non-believers among his followers. How Muslims can ever integrate with other nations while holding these hateful massages of Quran as the words of God?

    There are many Muslims who immigrate to non-Muslim countries and are received with open arms. Many of them get into politics and become part of the ruling elite. We suffer no discrimination in the non-Islamic countries. But see how our holy prophet tells us to deal with non-Muslims were we are the majority.

    Q.9: 29
    ”Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

    I also find the following verses completely against my conscience. I love all humanity and wish everyone to be happy in this world and forgiven in the next. But my holy prophet bade me not to seek forgiveness for the unbelievers even if they are my parents and beloved ones.

    (Interpretation of the meaning by Muhsin Khan):

    Q.9: 113
    “It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allaah’s forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they died in state of disbelief).”

    Quarn and Ahadith are full of outrageous verses like these that to me are clear proof that Muhammad was not a prophet, but a cult leader. To force people to denounce their own family is what cults do. He was an impostor who lied so loudly and so forcefully that the ignorant people of his time believed in him. Then the following generations echoed this lies passing it to the next. Philosophers and writers were born in this atmosphere of lies and elaborated on it, embellished it, and made it credible. But when you go to the core of it, when you read Quran and study the Ahadith you see it is nothing but lie.

    I know my words can be upsetting. But I urge you, to take control of your anger, read my other articles and mule on them.

    As you see my rejection of Islam is not based on the bad deeds of Muslims but on the bad deeds of its author. All the cruelties and heinous acts of violence, perpetrated by Muslims throughout the centuries were inspired by Quran and Sunnah (the example of the prophet) That is why I condemn Islam for the bad things that Muslims do. I know any effort to humanize the Islamic community is a waste of time. The enemy is Islam and that is the target of my attacks. I do that despite having become the magnet of the hatred of all fanatical Muslims. There is no gain in this for me. The only reason I am so adamant against Islam is to liberate the world from the claws of this satanic cult and restore peace and prosperity, love and amity amongst the children of man.

    By. Ali Sina


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    My View of Islam and Why I Left It

    Thu, 8 Feb 2001

    My reason for leaving Islam is very simple. I simply read the Quran. For me it was as easy as just reading the Quran and using a little reason, logic, and thinking.

    I thought the story of the Noah's Ark that is recorded in the Quran is one of the most bizarre stories I have ever heard. Apparently the world was run over by water and the only survivors were the people who had followed Noah. Noah apparently had the ability to communicate with animals to ask them to come aboard the ship, so that their species do not extinct.

    Back then the early Arabs looked around themselves and they saw a few camels and a couple of dogs and they thought that these are all the animals in the world. They were unaware of the fact that there are over a billions species in the world and some that haven't even been discovered yet. What about the animals that did not live in Arabia? Did Noah fly on a winged horse like Muhammad, to go and collect the animals from all around the world? What about the species that we are unable to see without a microscope? How did Noah collect them? Most importantly in the research of earth-biology we have discovered all the facts about the earth and its past. Can anyone find in any book of earth-biology any evidence that proves that the earth was once over taken by water?

    This was enough for me to realize that the Quran is just a book of fables.

    People will show you facts that according to the Quran the sun sets in a pond, or that mountains are pegs that Allah installed on the earth to keep it from moving and I can go on and on, but the only flaw of the Quran is not what is in it. The biggest flaw of the Quran is what is not in it. There are many many crimes a person can commit, yet the Quran only mentions the punishments for only a mere 3 or 4 crimes. I was astonished at the fact that the Quran mentions nothing about the punishment for rape. The word rape is not even mentioned once in the Quran as if it is not worth bringing it up. Apparently Allah thought that it is worthwhile to repeat praying and paying alms to his prophet, over 1000 times but rape is not worth mentioning. When you read the Hadithes about the obvious rape of Safiyah the Jewish women by Muhammad and then you back it up with the verse (Q. 4:24) and you also realize that this is not considered a crime according to the Quran, it all starts to fold together and make sense.

    There are an unlimited number of acts of kindness that we can use to help each other and make this world a better place for everyone, yet you do not see these in the Quran. How can the Quran be a perfect guidance from god when it lacks so many important issues?

    What I have done for the last six months on the internet is debate with Muslims and try to show them the light of truth.

    When you debate with a Muslim and they don't know what to say they always say "god is the author of the Quran because that's what it says in the Quran." It is absurd to prove something by itself. Sometimes when I hear these responses I feel like giving up on exposing the truth about Islam and religion, but then I realize that I would be abandoning my dear friends like Dr. Ali Sina and the many people who have given their lives for the truth.

    Ali Z.


    I believe Marx that these people did understand thier religion and yet they chose to leave it!.
     
  9. ismu ::phenomenon::. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    468
    Re: Re: Re: Godless, Ismu ... um .. yeah. If it makes sense, good.

    Wassalamu'alaikum wrwb.

    Thank's Markx. I'll try it (I wish i have more free time between my works). And thank you so much for your infos.
     
  10. ismu ::phenomenon::. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    468
    Re: **Warning long post**(why I left Islam)

    Salman Rushdie... yeah I've heard of him. His head is wanted by muslims because of his writing "The Satanic Verses". But USA protect him.

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    Godless, you have to see another side of the coin if you want to know the value of your nickel.
     
  11. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    Ismu

    The problem is, that I've seen the other side of the coin. Perhaps not as a muslin point of view, however all religions have some positive, to them. However over all they have the attroceties of the past which they can't scape from, only in modern times do they try to defend their barbarians laws.

    I.e. There is a woman who was senteced to death in Nigeria, by stoning, for adultery she got pregnant, she has been given two years, to wing her new born baby boy. After this she will be killed by stoning her to death. The area this unfortunate woman lives, is predominantly muslin, and this is the law of the quaran!!. BTW, this I heard in the radio news. yesterday. Yea these pease loving muslins....

    What other side of the freaking point do you want to see?.

    The one of which it is humanitary, and have the islam religion out of the state?.

    Here Ismu is the other side of the coin YOU should be looking at!!.

    http://www.usafricaonline.com/sharianigeria_enyimba.html

    http://www.irvl.net/MSC_ISLAM.htm

    http://www.binoria.org/albineng/june98/law.html

    Ismu, take a close look at the above links, this is what I see. All the pease loving crap that you try to tell me about is just that "crap" in reality this is what's happening, The quaran only leads to barbarian blind laws. Which were easily stablished in the past. Do you think this sh*t is going to happen here in America?. If we are blind to it, as so many of these fools are it just might!!.

    I'm not blind!.

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  12. tristesse Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    this Godless person must be one of the dumbest people ive come across.
     
  13. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    tristesse

    Quote: "this Godless person must be one of the dumbest people ive come across."

    And the above is the work of a genius?

    Please don't waste my time, either have something constructive or CHUT THE F*CK UP!!!
     
  14. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    "this Godless person must be one of the dumbest people ive come across."

    Wow. That comment will surely make Godless see your way (whatever that is) and completely surrender his view point. It is evident by your post that you are also brilliant and that your view on the issue is correct. Thank you kindly for your post, though I don't believe the majority of sciforum users are able to comprehend and appreciate your genius to the point that your post obviously indicates. Please, I beg of you, keep giving us your incredibly valuable input and don't listen to what that fool godless has to say.
     
  15. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    Xev..

    Quote Xev: "Ismu, I tend to agree with you on Islam - it is more peacefull, fundamentally, than most other religions."

    Really? I think after you study a bit of islam you would quickly reconsider.

    http://www.islaam.com/islamvs.htm

    http://www.islamexposed.com/Articles/cocooned.htm

    http://debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/Dark-Side-of-Islam.htm

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/not_muslim.htm

    Not to pick on anyone, but Ismu has really opened my eyes, in the debate of the quran, yes, I've learned much these past few days, and the above is what I've been learning. I understand that I can't judge all muslins such as these radicals, however when the holy quran is the sole quide of muslins then we can expect the atrocities.

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/glazov/2002/glazov06-06-02.htm

    http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/islam.shtml

    Well that's enough for tonight, I'm still learning about the ah! so peasefull muslin.
     
  16. GB-GIL Trans-global Senator Evilcheese, D-Iraq Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,718
    Re: Xev..

    Quote Xev: "Ismu, I tend to agree with you on Islam - it is more peacefull, fundamentally, than most other religions."

    Really? I think after you study a bit of islam you would quickly reconsider.


    I doubt it.

    The great Allah will surely send you to the lower depths of hell once you die at 96 (you will die due to brain cancer).

    Allah has told me such secrets as people's dates of death, causes of death, and how they may prevent dying at that time. However, I don't wish to divulge how you may avoid such an end to your life...

    (Allah does exist, but he is waiting for Cthulhu to come)

    http://www.islaam.com/islamvs.htm

    http://www.islamexposed.com/Articles/cocooned.htm

    http://debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/Dark-Side-of-Islam.htm


    How many links could I find that refute such claims of yours?

    Allah will surely send you to the hell below hell...

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/not_muslim.htm

    Yeah whatever.

    Not to pick on anyone, but Ismu has really opened my eyes, in the debate of the quran, yes, I've learned much these past few days, and the above is what I've been learning. I understand that I can't judge all muslins such as these radicals, however when the holy quran is the sole quide of muslins then we can expect the atrocities.

    YOU'RE AN IDIOTIC MOTHERFUCKING ARSEFACED SHITHEAD DICKFACE ASSHOLE PUSSY CUNT PENIS ORGASM WITH YOUR HEAD SHOVED SO FAR UP YOUR ASSHOLE IT COMES OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!

    LOL. FIRST OF ALL, YOU MOTHERFUCKING SON OF A BITCH, IT'S MUSLIM, NOT muslin, YOU FUCKING WHORE ASSHOLE IDIOT! AND IT'S THE QUR'AN NOT THE QUR'AN, YOU ASSHOLE PUSSY CUNT PENIS DICKFACED IDIOT!

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/glazov/2002/glazov06-06-02.htm

    http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/islam.shtml


    Do you realise that most of these are posted by Muslim-hating anti-semites such as yourself?

    Well that's enough for tonight, I'm still learning about the ah! so peasefull muslin.

    What an idiot. It should be "peaceful Muslim". Tsch. You probably only have two neurons. An a rate of transfer between them of 1/bit per day or something like that

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    "The problem is, that I've seen the other side of the coin. Perhaps not as a muslin point of view, however all religions have some positive, to them. However over all they have the attroceties of the past which they can't scape from, only in modern times do they try to defend their barbarians laws."

    Your logic is stating that at the current time Islam is causing the most fanatical religious actions. You appear to hold a belief, and correct me if I'm wrong, that therefore Islam is the most dangerous and bloody religion.

    What if I were to tell you that at a point Christianity caused the most radical religious action? Or that at a point Jewdaism caused the most radical religious action?



    "I.e. There is a woman who was senteced to death in Nigeria, by stoning, for adultery she got pregnant, she has been given two years, to wing her new born baby boy. After this she will be killed by stoning her to death. The area this unfortunate woman lives, is predominantly muslin, and this is the law of the quaran!!. BTW, this I heard in the radio news. yesterday. Yea these pease loving muslins...."

    Great. Hoorah. Did you hear that a little while ago a Christian was sending fake anthrax to an abortion clinic to scare the doctors into quitting? And other Christians were sending REAL diseases and bombs to the abortion clinics? Yeah....those peaceful Christians.
     
  18. GB-GIL Trans-global Senator Evilcheese, D-Iraq Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,718
    "The problem is, that I've seen the other side of the coin. Perhaps not as a muslin point of view, however all religions have some positive, to them. However over all they have the attroceties of the past which they can't scape from, only in modern times do they try to defend their barbarians laws."

    Perhaps these laws are of their own creation from their distorted interpretation of the Qur'an, and not how it would be seen by most straight-thinking Muslims, as well as straight-thinking Westerners (unfortunately, those who see the flaws of these laws are usually in the higher socio-economic classes, so impoverished Islamic communities tend to have such laws).

    Your logic is stating that at the current time Islam is causing the most fanatical religious actions. You appear to hold a belief, and correct me if I'm wrong, that therefore Islam is the most dangerous and bloody religion.

    What if I were to tell you that at a point Christianity caused the most radical religious action? Or that at a point Jewdaism caused the most radical religious action?


    Exactly. Oh, speaking of Judaism:

    On an A-Bomb memorial page, I saw this as a response from an American reader:

    "How DARE you compare the Jewish Holocaust to the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?! How DARE you call the United States "as racist as it's ever been"? You know darn well that that isn't true! You have no RIGHT to claim that the simple fact that Jews mostly resemble the common Caucasian American is the reason that Japan has received so little sympathy. It's the arrogant, swaggering, "we're descendants of the gods and better than you" that has kept them without it. I agree with most of what is written there, but those few paragraphs are completely unacceptable. The Jews were completely innocent and Hitler was messing with God's Chosen People. In the case of the Japanese cities' destruction, it was a desperate president ending something that a pompous emperor started."

    We can tell from the beginning of this letter that the author is very upset. However, these people DO have the right to claim such things, and denying them that right is simply un-American.

    Now, let's take a look at this part: "It's the arrogant, swaggering, "we're descendants of the gods and better than you" that has kept them without it. I agree with most of what is written there, but those few paragraphs are completely unacceptable. The Jews were completely innocent and Hitler was messing with God's Chosen People."

    Now, let's compare these two situations as stated by the author of this letter: The Japanese claim to be descendants of the gods, and this is why they get no sympathy. The Jews (and you claim about them) to be God's Chosen People. See any similarities? Those who were seriously injured or died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were innocent. They hadn't killed people at Pearl Harbour. As were those that Hitler killed. Hitler's operation was of a larger size (and it wasn't JUST Jews, he attempted to exterminate Gypsies, homosexuals, bisexuals, handicapped persons, catholics, communists, Esperantists [the inventor of Esperanto was Jewish, and he thought that Esperanto was an attempt by the Jews to make the world speak a common language so that domination would be easier])

    Nowadays, the part about being descendants of the gods is just tradition. Most Japanese people are Christian, or believe in evolution (Christians make up for 1% of the population, still much of this population is largely secular. Most active Christians lived in Hiroshima, and they still do.) They don't believe the emperor is divine (in 1946, Hirohito denied being a god)

    Also, at the time, Hirohito had no control over the country. As in the past, the emperor was just a national symbol. The person REALLY in power was the shougun (aka shogun, shôgun, shohgun), or the general. Japan had long been a military government, with various clans fighting for power every once in a while. By the time Hirohito was in power, it wasn't a clan that held the shougunate, but rather there was a modern military and the shougunate no longer existed. (and you don't say kah-mee-kah-zee, but rather kah-mee-kah-zay, just as you should say sah-kay instead of sah-kee, and kah-rah-tay instead of kah-rah-tee. damn people can't teach people to read romanisation! it's self-explanitory...)

    "I.e. There is a woman who was senteced to death in Nigeria, by stoning, for adultery she got pregnant, she has been given two years, to wing her new born baby boy. After this she will be killed by stoning her to death. The area this unfortunate woman lives, is predominantly muslin, and this is the law of the quaran!!. BTW, this I heard in the radio news. yesterday. Yea these pease loving muslins...."

    To address Godless:
    If you were to study the Qur'an, you would discover that it does, in no way, dictate such laws. Rather, they were made up by fundamentalists.

    What the Qur'an DOES dictate about women and adultery is that men are to protect and keep their wives from it. Men in such impoverished communities as northern Pakistan and in Afghanistan interpreted this as: "You must protect your wives from danger, and from adultery." If they weren't able to do so, they felt that to keep in compliance with the Qur'an (without the interferance of their spouses), they should kill them so they would no longer have to break Islamic law by not being able to protect their wives. (the same is true with female children and their fathers. if a night away from home is with all girls, then just the mother can go, if it's girls and boys, the father, or the father the mother, need to go with the girl [today this seems much more reasonable than in the past, and it's nice to be able to keep an eye on your daughter]. young boys not yet part of the adult islamic community have the same rules.

    Great. Hoorah. Did you hear that a little while ago a Christian was sending fake anthrax to an abortion clinic to scare the doctors into quitting? And other Christians were sending REAL diseases and bombs to the abortion clinics? Yeah....those peaceful Christians. Probably.

    Also, I'm going to ask you a question.

    Were the anthrax letters sent by Islamic terrorists?

    My answer: no. If one checks, they will find that the spelling mistakes distinctly hint at a speaker of a language from Hindu India [this person would be a speaker of a Dravidian language]. If one searches Islamic activist websites, Palestine, Pakistan, etc. activist websites, one won't find all those addresses in the same place. However, many pro-India anti-Pakistan websites list those addresses and ask readers to mail these people, to convince them of the "truth".

    Now, take a moment to think. If you were from India and wanted to make the US mad at Islam, what would you do? It does make sense to send anthrax-laced letters to a world superpower hinting at an Arab Muslim author ("Death to America", "Death to Israel", "Allah is Great").
     
  19. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    GB-GIL...

    Thanks, your intellect was proven to me here:

    YOU'RE AN IDIOTIC MOTHERFUCKING ARSEFACED SHITHEAD DICKFACE ASSHOLE PUSSY CUNT PENIS ORGASM WITH YOUR HEAD SHOVED SO FAR UP YOUR ASSHOLE IT COMES OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!

    LOL. FIRST OF ALL, YOU MOTHERFUCKING SON OF A BITCH, IT'S MUSLIM, NOT muslin, YOU FUCKING WHORE ASSHOLE IDIOT! AND IT'S THE QUR'AN NOT THE QUR'AN, YOU ASSHOLE PUSSY CUNT PENIS DICKFACED IDIOT!


    I call them "muslins" cause it's meant to offend, same reason I call them christians!. I don't take part in any religion so I don't recongnise them as a great big deal to deserve a "Capitalization".


    These laws are written in the quran you can read them yourself, they were posted, so I wont waste my time with you, and show them again.

    I do understand your frustration, it seems as I'm only picking on this one religion, however the thread was started as the "quran" not the bible, nor christianity, or catholics. If I were to compare all these religions of course that catholics, and christians atrocities would overwelm the thread.

    Keeping in subject matter, I've found another interesting site, which comes from the UK. Ismu I don't mean to insult you, it is however insulting to the islamic religion, however in light or reason developments of our "peaceful" debate, that have been invaded by others only calling me names and insulting my intellect, with their lack of it, I feel compeled to share this with these individuals. LOL. (it seems that the only "peaceful" ones here are Ismu, Tiassa, Xev, and Tyler) To you guys I thank you, for keeping it debateable, and not just name calling.

    Link: http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mhmd.htm

    http://byrden.com/suralikeit/
     
  20. Markx Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    970
    Re: GB-GIL...

    Godless,
    You are keep saying that you have checked those links that Ismu has posted. But you and I both knows that, you didn't. I can fill this site with Anti or Pro muslim websites, But what crediblity do I/you give them? When they are showing some one's personal views, not much one can do. It also seems that you have made up your mind, that Islam Is Evil. Without knowing Jack about it, or you know all about it from those websites?? Correct? There is a problem there, anti religious websites are design by very extreme views in mind and go beyond the truth to convey the negetive message, and people like you take them as the final authority becuase you are too lazy to do some research, or you just don't want to becuase you have already made your mind about something. You talked about contradtictions but those sided rebuts them so easily, but you failed to see that?. Didn't you?

    You also said you enjoy muslims calling muslins? Then Quraam instead of Quran? Becuase you meant insult?. See that shows how handicap you are when it comes to religion. Your hatered is clear and you can't ever produce a balance argument since you have too much hate and insult for other's religion. I communicate with lots of athiests and none of them have shown ignorance like you. Xev, Tyler and many others are here and time after time they provide with very logical and balanced arguments without leaning to one side. Since you didn't go in detials and don't know much about the religion I might have to cut and paste some info for you. I don't expect you to believe it or read it but atleast it will be there, so when ever you are done with your anti islamic views you can see the "other" side of coin, which you claimed to see.

    Thanks.
     
  21. GB-GIL Trans-global Senator Evilcheese, D-Iraq Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,718
    Re: GB-GIL...

    Thanks, your intellect was proven to me here:

    YOU'RE AN IDIOTIC MOTHERFUCKING ARSEFACED SHITHEAD DICKFACE ASSHOLE PUSSY CUNT PENIS ORGASM WITH YOUR HEAD SHOVED SO FAR UP YOUR ASSHOLE IT COMES OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!

    LOL. FIRST OF ALL, YOU MOTHERFUCKING SON OF A BITCH, IT'S MUSLIM, NOT muslin, YOU FUCKING WHORE ASSHOLE IDIOT! AND IT'S THE QUR'AN NOT THE QUR'AN, YOU ASSHOLE PUSSY CUNT PENIS DICKFACED IDIOT!


    Hmm, let's see: I can usually endure really really idiotic people that can't give facts to back up their arguements, but there's really a limit.


    I call them "muslins" cause it's meant to offend, same reason I call them christians!. I don't take part in any religion so I don't recongnise them as a great big deal to deserve a "Capitalization".

    Hmm, let's see. I don't really care if you capitalise. Even if you don't, they're "muslims" and not "muslins", and it's the "qur'an" and not the "quran". (ignoring such conventions just proves that you're a selfish idiot)

    These laws are written in the quran you can read them yourself, they were posted, so I wont waste my time with you, and show them again.

    Have you ever actually read the Qur'an? Those laws are <i><b>not</i></b> written in the Qur'an.

    I do understand your frustration, it seems as I'm only picking on this one religion, however the thread was started as the "quran" not the bible, nor christianity, or catholics. If I were to compare all these religions of course that catholics, and christians atrocities would overwelm the thread.

    That was mostly Ty's irritation, not mine.

    Keeping in subject matter, I've found another interesting site, which comes from the UK. Ismu I don't mean to insult you, it is however insulting to the islamic religion, however in light or reason developments of our "peaceful" debate, that have been invaded by others only calling me names and insulting my intellect, with their lack of it, I feel compeled to share this with these individuals. LOL. (it seems that the only "peaceful" ones here are Ismu, Tiassa, Xev, and Tyler) To you guys I thank you, for keeping it debateable, and not just name calling.

    Not JUST name calling? Please. I only called you names once. And Xev and Ty have also been known to insult people's intelligence in the middle of debates (as has that idiot Randolfo)

    Link: http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mhmd.htm

    http://byrden.com/suralikeit/


    If you'd lived at that time, you might, and probably would, marry a 6-year-old girl.
     
  22. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    Marx..

    Wether you believe me or not, I know I've checked those sites, however don't they claim that allah this and allah that, just as the christian sites claim jesus this and jesus that?.

    Of course I looked at secularist sites, who else would be objective? Certainly not the religion promoting it's believes!!.

    Is this discussion only about one religion?, while yes, it's called the quaran, though mispelled as so eloquently brought to my attention by Ismu, when I started this thread, it was with him to debate with, I understand that anyone can attempt to debate, however when we get to name calling, and insults, what that proves to me is that most people here are not worthy of debate.

    I've not stated hatred towards anyone, hence I've not called Ismu any insulting words, nor anyone else for that matter, I rudely told trisstesse if she has nothing worth saying to "shut the f*ck up" but her statement was one that had no grounds.

    Has anyone here really looked at the links I've posted?. It seems that most have not, if you check they have the references of where they get there information from. They give quotes from the Koran itself.

    Is it all about interpretation? While yes, it is, however when taken litterally, what the Koran preaches is hatred towads infedels, and this is clearly chown by religious leaders such as Osama bin Laden.
     
  23. Godless Objectivist Mind Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,197
    A very small error...

    Muslin, Muslim, well ok, rthere ar U happy now?

    It was a tipographical error, the idiot is the one with the name calling, when I've not started calling Ismu any name whatsoever who was the original person of which I was having this debate with.

    Facts? what do you want? CNN!!. I've freaking posted all those links just look at them.

    Not written in the quran? are you certain?;

    “When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives.” (Quran47.4).

    "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God [i.e. moshrekin.] wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is Gracious, Merciful."(Quran 9:5)

    "Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given and believe not in God, or the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden..."( Quran. 9:29)

    Oh!! and lets not forget another interesting site:

    http://www.secularislam.org/humanrights/totalitarian.htm
     

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