WHY do I argue with Apologists???

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by one_raven, Apr 20, 2007.

  1. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    As I see it, and aplogist is someone who has forgone conclusions based on the group or ideology that (s)he has identified him or herself with.
    By definition and necessity of being an apologist, these people are closed to different perspectives and new ideas, and refuse to challenge their beiefs.
    As a rule they will twist and distort facts, and stoop to other dishonest measures to try and "win" a debate, rather than simply have open and honest discussions with other people.
    Someome who has his self identity tied to one group or ideology or another can not diverge from that group without severing and essentially destroying his own self image, and I have very rarely been witness to aplogists being willing to tread into darkness - after all, it is their fear of the darkness that leads them to grasp onto an ideology in the first place.

    Arguing with these people frustrates me to no end - perhaps more than anything else in life - yet I still do it over and over and over again.

    I read somewhere that the definition of psychosis is performing the same action repeatedly, expecting different results.

    Am I psychotic?
    Am I a glutton for punishment?
    Am I grasping onto a shred of hope, thinking I am going to guide people into the light, by guiding them into the darkness?
    Do I think that this self immolation will redeem my shortcomings and transgressions?

    Why do I do this to myself?
    Why do I bother???
     
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  3. Red State Registered Member

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    "As I see it, and aplogist is someone who has forgone conclusions based on the group or ideology that (s)he has identified him or herself with.
    By definition and necessity of being an apologist, these people are closed to different perspectives and new ideas, and refuse to challenge their beiefs.
    As a rule they will twist and distort facts, and stoop to other dishonest measures to try and "win" a debate, rather than simply have open and honest discussions with other people.
    Someome who has his self identity tied to one group or ideology or another can not diverge from that group without severing and essentially destroying his own self image, and I have very rarely been witness to aplogists being willing to tread into darkness - after all, it is their fear of the darkness that leads them to grasp onto an ideology in the first place. "



    I think you just nailed it spot on. There in one brief blog you just summed up the entire group think phenomenon of global warming hysteria, and the perpetuation of the Democratic party.
     
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  5. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

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    Nice thread. I think I started something similar before. Apologists are idiots. The majority of people are apologists. They don't necessarily distort facts, but most of them do because they know nothing. Actually, I started a few threads about meliorism. Apologists seem to just be the type of people that base their opinions on what is official or common. They are conformists. They have their own opinions, but they did not get their opinions from actual thought. They get their opinions at face value on a platter. Such as the media.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2007
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    But by that definition, and the fact that you argue with people, doesn't it mean that you, too, are set on your own conclusions and judgements?

    Or if not, then you haven't fully made up your mind about something, and you're seeking further information about the subject ...in which case you shouldn't be arguing with anyone.

    What's the difference between you attitude, which you've outlined above, and that of the "apologist"? Is it just that ...well, you're right and they're wrong? Is that it?

    Baron Max
     
  8. Red State Registered Member

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    16
    one_raven,

    Obviously you are a thinking man so I have a couple of simple questions I'd ask you to ponder.

    Do you believe that the right to be free from government oppression is an inalienable right?

    If your family lived down the street from mine and had fallen on hard times, running out of food with your children going hungry, would the right thing for me to do be to share my food with you (I have plenty), or hoard it in case my family might need it?
     
  9. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Because you care?
     
  10. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

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    I would say that sharing it might be the right thing to do. Why? What's the point?
     
  11. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    24,066
    he was talking about you.
     
  12. Red State Registered Member

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    16
    Because it tells me who he's calling apologists and what ideology he's trying to convince them of.
     
  13. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    13,433
    I've already stated who I was referring to...

    Whether it is a Christian, Republican, Democrat, Conservative, Liberal...
    It doesn't matter WHICH group.

    I don't appreciate the implication that I am hypocrite, by the way.
     
  14. nameless Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    686
    Please forgive a 'cut and paste' from another forum, but as this exchange happened a few moments ago and I feel, relevent, I'll offer it for your reading pleasure;

    He was referring to his great 'frustration' over the following;
    Butterflies & Razorblades wrote:
    Does anyone here, know something, and you repeatedly tell people it, but they don't even care. They don't listen to the facts or the evidence you provide, and carry on with their lives like it's not just a matter of time till we're taken over by the Alien agenda?


    To which I replied;

    Hahahaha..
    Imagine a roomful of people who all 'feel' that they each 'know the truth'!
    (sounds like a church meeting!)

    They (we) all want to help humanity to be as 'smart', as 'wise', as 'knowledgeable', as 'understanding of 'reality', .. as 'they' are...

    Funny that everyone else doesn't realize how 'superior' we really are and how much that they can really learn from us to displace all 'their' 'less than correct' knowledge (with which 'they' identify, like you, yours..)'
    (Pride/ego remaining unfulfilled breed that 'frustration'.)

    You might actually be surprised, if you could 'see' how much of what you might say to others, that appears to 'bear no immediate fruit', sprouts with a 'lightulb' in some other moment.

    What you so generously offer to 'others' must pass through the egoic pride of the potential recipient. Therein lies the rub! Logic and rationality are NOT the rule here; the currents of 'need' and 'emotion' and 'belief virus', etc.. go much deeper than the superficial sun-glittery layer/surface of the river that you attempt to transverse, to 'communicate' .

    The frustration is just another symptom of egoic pride.
    Deal with the 'glitch/virus' of your 'pride', and the unpleasant 'symptom' will disappear!
    *__-
     
  15. Red State Registered Member

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    I'm not convinced that I implied your a hypocrite, because I haven't seen your answer. You said you argue trying to change people, obviously that group is apologists, but what are you arguing with them about? That they should be more open minded and skeptical? Or are these apologists a particular group of apologists; a group of people who could be defined together under another common denominator, such as their politics?
     
  16. Zardozi Isvara.... . 1S Evil_Lau Registered Senior Member

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    443


    damn man, what do you gotta get alll rowdy for

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    The difference is that:

    1.) I am not trying to get people to see things my way - I am trying to have open-ended, honest discussions.

    2.) I am open to changing my views with new information. In fact I am eager to change my views with new information, because it means I am learning.

    3.) I do not align my views with any group, nor defend that group's ideology using dishonest tactics.
     
  18. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    others will see who is sticking to the debate topic, just do your thing raven and let those people act as they please, no point getting worked up over it, just relax i know exactly what you mean though.

    the majority will see the truth.

    peace.
     
  19. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    If, in fact, that's the case, then it would seem foolish to make up your mind or to form any opinion about any subject or issue ....there's always going to be new information.

    And if that's the case, then I agree with you ...I'm much the same way myself now. I seldom, if ever, form any opinion on anything ...unless forced to do so by extenuating circumstances ...because tomorrow will bring new information that might change things. So why form an opinion at all?

    Baron Max
     
  20. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    yes i like the way you have blossomed baron

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    , i agree with so many of your posts now.

    peace.
     
  21. nameless Registered Senior Member

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    686
    Thats the way that I'm written. What choice have I? Gotta be as I am, eh?
    *__-
     
  22. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

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    These 3 are the exacy opposite of how most apologists think. They approach all discussions with the exact opposite attitude you have conveyed in #1-3. The point of all discussions is that all parties should be open to changing their views if they realize they were wrong. This is not how many apologists think. This is not how they approach discussions, and they think "everybpdy has their permanent opinion, nobody is going to change, and neither will I." Then they claim that they are not ignorant. Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. Ignorance is the lack of desire for knowledge.
     
  23. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    I think maybe that's what I try to tell myself.
    Who knows?
     

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