maths

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by fishtail, Jun 24, 2007.

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  1. fishtail Registered Senior Member

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    Is just another language, to describe the real and unreal, maths is not infallible in the way it steere's us to reality,. math can be wrong and can be
    right.
     
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  3. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    *sigh*

    Math talks about a perfect world. Obviously, we don't live in a perfect world. Who said mathematics needs to describe reality perfectly?
     
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  5. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    fishtail, don't be stupid.
     
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  7. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Maths can be wrong?
    In what way?
    Your sums don't add up?
     
  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Maths is a GIGO system - garbage in, garbage out.
     
  9. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Math is about abstractions. Mathematical theories can be proven to be correct since they are based entirely on reasoning. This is the fundamental difference between mathematics and science. Scientific theories can be proven to be incorrect, but since they are based on observation and we cannot predict our observations, they can never be proven to be correct.

    We know with absolute certainty that 1+1=2, that the square of a hypoteneuse is the sum of the squares of the two sides, that the first derivative of x squared is 2x, that the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is pi. These things will always be true in every situation, and will never be disproven during the life of the universe.

    The way you've stated your question makes it a little difficult to understand. But I think the correct answer to it is that mathematics can never be wrong.
     
  10. plakhapate Banned Banned

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    There is a falacy in your statement

    Mathematics is Queen of Science.

    Science can be wrong

    Hence Mathematics can be wrong.

    I think MATHEMATICS is wrong if assumptions are wrong.

    P.J.LAKHAPATE
    plakhapate@rediffmail.com
     
  11. kame Registered Member

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    What about converting 1/3 to decimal form. That is one part of math that is not totally perfect. .333... will be as close as possible to 1 when multiplied by 3, while 1/3 does equal exactly 1 when multiplied by 3. we have an imperfect number system. There are 1 or more ways to make this conversion work, such as subsituting, but it does not work from the first look at it.
     
  12. peta9 Registered Senior Member

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    It's not that math is wrong that makes the world imperfect, it's because it can be manipulated to be unfair. For instance, I can give you one dollar while I keep a million dollars and insist it is equal. Math doesn't stop the manipulation or exploitation of a constant. And it's not 'fair' in the sense of how all the factors interact to form a result. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line though how many truly straight lines do you see in nature? Or circles?
     
  13. capelli Registered Member

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    I'm not sure that you can say maths is not totally perfect for this reason. 0.9999.... definitely does equal 1 (there are many proofs) and so, even if it doesn't look like it works, it does. Therefore I can't see how this could be the reason for an imperfect number system or imperfection.

    Gödel's incompleteness theorem, however, proves that for any theory that proves basic arithmetical truths, an arithmetical statement that is true but not provable in the theory can be constructed, hence Mathematics can never be complete.
     
  14. andbna Registered Senior Member

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    No, Math in its simplest is a set of axioms and rules. These rules were made by humans, just like the rules of say soccer, to say that the axioms are wrong would be equivelent to saying the rules of soccer are wrong.
    Mathmeticians develop theorems derived from these axioms, such as Pythagorean's theorem. What we can then do is apply mathematics to real life, hence it becomes a tool. Science is basicaly that, the application of mathematics to real life to describe our universe. This application of mathematics can be wrong, however math itself is entirely perfect, and cannot be imperfect, because we created the rules for it and thus know them, as opposed to science wich tries to inductivly discover laws, and then applies math to describe them.


    Kame:
    .999... is equal to 1
    There was a thread here on reacurring decimals I think.
    one would think that .999... is less than 1 however:
    if:
    1/3*3=1
    and if 1/3+1/3+1/3=1/3*3
    and if 1/3=0.333...
    and if .333...+0.333...+0.333...=0.999...
    then
    1/3+1/3+1/3=0.333...+0.333...+0.333...
    1/3*3=0.999...
    so 0.999...=1

    Simple as that following the laws of mathematics. The only 'error' that occurs is in oneself, as most people would bet their life that 0.999... was slightly smaller than 1, this is simply not true. Remember, there are an infinite many 9's after the decimal, the problem occurs with the brain's severe lack of ability to comprehend infinities. There is actualy no terminating 9 to make it a tiny bit smaller than 1.
    If anything this only indicates a problem with language (of which there are many), not with mathmatics. remember math is a concept, not a language. The concept is perfect, the mothod communicating it can be flawed.

    -Andrew
     
  15. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    The fallacy is in your own syllogism, which is illogical. That's like saying if I can get lost, then my map must be wrong. Mathematics is just one of the many resources that scientists use, and it's arguably the most reliable of the lot.

    Most of what drives science is empirical observation. While the observations themselves may not be "wrong," they can be misintepreted and they can also be an incomplete set that does not present all of the details of the subject matter.

    Still, it's not really true to say that science can be "wrong." The scientific method can yield theories that are ultimately proven incorrect, but if the methodology used to derive the theory was proper, then there's nothing wrong with the science. When science is done right it promises to help you get increasingly closer to the truth, but it never promises you that you have found it, not ever.

    Mathematics on the other hand does promise that because its theories are totally derived from reasoning rather than observation.
    You're committing an important semantic error. If I drill a hole in the wrong place in my new door so that the hinge doesn't work, is my drill "wrong"? No, it was the process in which I used it that was wrong. Similarly, people can use math correctly, but if their input data is wrong their output data will probably also be wrong. That doesn't make the math wrong.

    Math is a tool and tools are not wrong. But the people who use them can be and often are.
    You need to brush up on your math because you're not reading the three dots correctly. That ellipsis is shorthand for "and so on to infinity." An infinite sequence of threes following a decimal point does in fact exactly equal one third. The fact that we can't write the whole sequence is just an accident of our using the decimal system. In the duodecimal system one third is simply 0.4 . That's why we have developed mathematical notation, so that we can write .333... and we all know what that means. (Well most of us do anyway.

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    )

    In a proper mathematical chat we would be using more formal notation, with the capital sigma, exponentiation, and the little arrow pointing to the 8 on its side representing infinity. But I don't have that character set. Still I can say, "Sigma, as n goes from 1 to infinity, of 3 times 10 to the minus n power, equals one third." That would be a true statement and the mathematics would be correct but difficult to read. (And to write, I had to fix it three times and I hope it's right now.) It's easier to write .333... = 1/3 . It's the same math, using the basic character set and notational conventions we all learned in Math 101a, if not in high school.
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You want to specify Euclidean goemetry, there.

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    (which may not be the geometry of the space we live in).
     
  17. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Yes obviously. I just have a hunch that the member who coined the word "maths" probably won't even know what we're talking about now. If he hasn't already run away from his own thread with a headache.

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  18. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    ??

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  19. D H Some other guy Valued Senior Member

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    Fraggle is obviously an American who has not talked much with Brits concerning the field of mathematics.
     
  20. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    My thoughts exactly - but I'm surprised Fraggle, of all people, didn't get that.
     
  21. Klippymitch Thinker Registered Senior Member

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    Mathematics is based on a Theory. It is based on the number theory...

    just sayin...
     
  22. andbna Registered Senior Member

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    False.
    "Number theory is the branch of pure mathematics..." -Wikipedia

    -Andrew
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2007
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