I have spent most of the day and indeed last night trying to find the best way to explain what I want to explain and ask what I want to ask. I feel that both the explanation and question will be inadequate, and for that I apologise in advance. So let me tell you about last night: I had planned to go out with a friend for a few drinks and while waiting for him to turn up here decided to have a smoke. I don't smoke inside because of my kids so I went out into the back garden and lit up. It was a very clear early evening - the Plough, (big dipper), shone in the night sky along with dozens of other stars and I spend a good few minutes looking up at them, (I am truly fascinated by space). From the west 4 big lights appeared and travelled slowly across the path of my vision. I looked at them, somewhat bemused and yet as a natural born skeptic trying to associate them to something I could relate to. An airplane perhaps - it is after all flying in the sky. When the 2 middle lights started to get closer to each other I assumed it was still a plane and that it was merely my line of sight that made those lights appear to move closer to each other. But you see, the front light move off slightly by itself while the 2 middle lights 'danced', for want of a better word - the left light becoming the right light and vice versa. I have gone through everything I can think of - and I know the explanation does not do it justice, but can't seem to come up with these lights as being anything 'from this earth' as it were. So, I hear you ask.. what does any of this have to do with religion? Well, you see, I find myself in a slight predicament - a sane, rational, very skeptical individual finding it hard to come to terms with what I have seen. If I was now to say that I was under the impression that 'aliens' existed and were observing or at least passing by this planet I would at least have some form of personal experience to support (at least to myself) my 'belief'. So if there is a god and it wants people to worship and believe in it, why does it not provide everyone with an 'experience' that would leave them in the position I am currently in? I did not have to track down, want to find, or search for UFO's or aliens, I just had an experience that now clearly affects my views. So why does a god not do this? I have heard of people having claimed experiences of gods and whatnot, but surely it would be in the best interests of both man and god if we were all given such an experience? Your precious "faith" would still exist regardless to the experience - after all, even though convinced that these things were alien craft I could never provide anything to support such a claim and so ultimately it is along those same lines. (Trust me, I am ultimately pissed off that I didn't have a video camera on me). You would still have the choice and ability to accept or reject, but you would at least have been given an experience of this entity. If anyone has anything interesting to say, I invite you to do it.
It wont work, but I cannot adequately describe it. They were all together - like a bunch of geese - but 'dancing', (wish I could think up a better word). :\ Don't get me wrong, I want it to be some planes.. Whether I can ultimately convince myself of that is another matter.
It was probably some Northern Lights, they are occasionally seen in England edit: nope no activity in the last few days http://www.dcs.lancs.ac.uk/iono/cgi-bin/summary?mode=aurorawatch
Isn't it odd that these types of things happen over desolate areas where few people live. If there were real UFO's then they would appear over populated centers to show everyone that they are here.
Do you ever look at the sky in a populated city?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Until I lived in the desert, I had never noticed how much depth there was to the sky and how close the stars appeared when I lay on the roof. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
could it be some balloons, and no i'm not taking the piss. you can buy balloons that light up, which can blink and change colour,a strong wind and a high altitude, that could appear as if they are dancing. led balloons or these or even some big balloons there is always a reasonable answer for everything.
I sit in my back yard all the time at night and I also like sitting in sun during the day. That means I'm at least some of the time viewing the sky. But the thrust of my question is why don't they just fly over populated cities so everyone can see them? They are so advanced but only want a few people to see them, why is that?
Air Force jet jockeys often "play" while flying in formation. Are you anywhere near a military airfield or base? By the way, what was in that cigarette that you were smoking? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Baron Max
Look guys, I think ultimately it must be stated that I take the term "UFO" literally, (i.e 'unidentified'). I don't know, honestly. To me, from my perspective I would have to disagree with these 3 possibilites for various reasons but - being the healthy skeptic that I am, I will not say "this was an alien craft". Hell, I'd rather it wasn't - no wait: I'd rather I could at least say; "this was.. [whatever]", but right now I find myself unable to do so. However.. aliens, balloons, imagination, aircraft, whatever.. I am overall asking why - given that as a species we work upon experience, that an entity that wants us to know it exists doesn't provide all of us with that experience. Ultimately, (yes I like the word), I am not asking for explanations as to what it was I saw - be that aurora borealis or little green men, but why a being that wants us to believe it exists cannot or does not provide an 'experience' for us all that will make us sit down and say "hang on a minute.. there's a god". Right now as it stands, I have seen a lot more 'alien' than I have a god - and I have to enquire why. Admittedly I live on the outskirts of London, but the population here can hardly be described as "desolate". I was kinda hoping there'd be some 'sighting report' on the news or radio which is not something that happens over here really but right now there's nothing. And I feel like such an ass.. like it's my fault I didn't run inside and get the video cam even though I know doing so would have taken me the best part of half an hour. I hate being in the position where the best thing I can say is: "If only I had have.." Be it aliens, balloons or flying witches preparing for the end of this month, it would have made anyone here have to sit down and give some serious thought into the issue. Ultimately though, (there's that word again), I can't establish or prove anything. In saying, I ask none of you to accept or believe that it was a certain something. But there's the difference to the whole thing.. I am a rational, sane, logical and skeptical individual. I ask nobody to believe or accept what is said - especially given the little detail and absolute lack of evidence. Why do theists ask for so much more? The only person that I have spoken to that "knows" beyond any doubt that I am at least sincere is the wife. I wouldn't even expect her to accept that these UFO's were 'aliens'. The possibilities go on and on. I just wish I had filmed the damn thing. No, but I would consider the possibility. The problem I'm having is that there was no sound and the objects were going against every apparent flight pattern that I know crosses my house. These objects were going left to right as opposed to up and down as every single plane I have seen here has done. Of course that doesn't rule out the possibility. Then there is the sound which again does not rule out possibilities but is in itself quite peculiar given that when I'm out there I can and do hear every plane passing my property. Of course it's all mathematics.. I question what an air force 'play' would look like from 10,000 feet below it, what it would look like from my perspective, so yes.. I will accept the possibility. Again I just wish I had have filmed it so I could actually go over it again and again with something a little more concrete than human memory. Worth adding however that being who I am I did not assert that they were aliens or something extraordinary when I saw them. Instead I really concentrated trying to associate them with something that I could relate to. It's doubtful your typical average kinda guy would have given it the same attention but without footage I'm really in a tough position. Such is life.
I'd say that if a god exists who created the universe then I can't see why human beings would be of significance to her/him/it.
what was it you were smoking? :m: about that god?...either it dont exist,or if it does it doesnt want to interfere in our lifes. Deistic god?
actually your experience bears many parallels to philosophy that deals with the "concept" of god, eg plato as a little bit of back ground, the ancient greeks didn't entirely reject the Theogeny when they moved into philosophy (heralded by the sorts of Plato) - it was given that the cause of the pantheon was the "chos" which literally means gap or chasm - and what followed was a speculation on what "would" be the nature of the absolute - in otherwords plato inc. was dealing with the question of what god "should" be, as opposed to what god "is" Of course I know you share many apprehensions about the claims of religion but I am just explaining how there is a difference between the divine revelation of saintly persons and others (like plato) who are merely adroit thinkers - the difference is that such persons never have any "direct experience" outside of deep rumination of some phenomena To translate you experiences into this context, your experience is much like that of Platos - IOW even if you sit down and think about it all day the best you can arrive at is "the most plausible solution" - that is no matter what ever conclusion you arrive at, you are not in a position to falsify such claims Compare that to say a person who saw these lights come down before him and engaged in discussion with the pilots of the vehicle (or, if it were some natural phenomena of luminosity, determined exactly how it took place) - they would be capable of explaining things in a more factual manner. There is no rule that the conclusions of persons in these two situations need be opposed or divergent (the plausible solution could be the same as the actual solution) - but there is also no rule that they should bear similarity either. As for why puzzling experiences are not revealed to everyone equally, that is also explained by your experience - you saw something in the night's sky - everyone else in your neighborhood would have had the same opportunity- in fact there must have been people who saw exactly what you saw but didn't make anything of it due to be absorbed in different desires
were you the only one who saw it? It wasn't on the news? could it have been flares? (not the kind that are shot up, but the kind that are dropped down)
I will give answer to Snakelord's question, to the best of my ability. I want it to be clear, though, that in this explanation I am in no way attempting to convince anyone of my religious position. I am simply providing an explanation which Snakelord may or may not take as sufficient to his question. The question is, why does a god who wants us to know about him not simply give all of us a clear experience that makes us stop and seriously consider the reality of his existence? My answer to this is that it is not possible. I am answering from my own Christian (Catholic) philosophic/theologic tradition, which certainly does not encompass all theistic beliefs. In my tradition, however, it is said that in the original human creation, human spiritual experience, of God and other spiritual beings, was clear and perfectly evident. Sin disrupted the natural order of human nature and obfuscates this experience. The spiritual world is no longer clear, and human nature is ruled by the body. So the answer is that God cannot provide each of us with a clear and obvious spiritual experience because our own fallen nature disallows it. It is only through spiritual discipline that own spiritual perception clarifies. Thus, it is always to saints, visionaries and mystics that divine revelations are given. So, one might ask, well if human nature is ruled by the body, and we now only clearly recognize physical evidence, why does God not provide that? To this I answer, what kind of evidence could God provide that could not be explained in another way? If the universe operates through principles and laws, then this necessarily makes some things impossible and other things possible. In fact, only those things which operate within those laws are possible. Everything else belongs to the realm of impossibilty. If God interacts with the physical world according to those physical laws, then there would always be a physical explanation, since nothing happens without a cause. So, while something unexpected might happen, and we might say, well, this happened, we know how it happened, we just don't know why, but the theoretics are in place to allow for something like this to happen. If we were to assume that God could make the impossible happen, then we should ask what kind of an impact an impossible phenomenon would have on the natural order, the laws of our universe. Could they remain intact if an impossibility was suddenly somehow possible? I'm not sure, but somehow I don't think so. However, I don't think the impossible is possible, even for God. Though there may be other explanations, or perhaps this simply isn't a good enough explanation for the question, I believe that a mass experience that demonstrates the certainty of God is simply not possible. I believe that experiences are possible which positively concretize God's existence in the mind of the one experiencing it, but that such experiences are not available to the mass majority of people... but that even if they were, they could never be positively proven to have occurred outside the experience of the subject, as they are spiritual in nature, and belong solely to the subject.
I noticed that Snakelord was annoyed that he had no video camera. His conditioning has convinced him to believe that if I could not prove something that it was equivalent to supposing that it simply did not happen. It is sad when somebody's intellectual conditioning convinces them to discredit their own experience. Generations ago stubborn people would say "I'll believe it when I see it". But now, even personal experience is not enough. But I have to admit that such Atheist Propaganda must be very effective when it makes people renounce even themselves. If only Religion could learn to brainwash people like that.
I would be inclined to agree. Not really, they would be in exactly the same position of having a claim to an experience which can't be supported. I explained what was seen in an entirely factual manner - what those things were is open to debate. It's unlikely - they were travelling as opposed to falling. I can't help but chuckle when statements like this are made given that these sinners are the target audience. It's like making a product specifically to give bald people their hair back but then stipulating that bald people can't use it. You're mistaken but I forgive you. The value of a video camera in such instance is to allow you to view something back to see if you missed something the first time round when all information has not been processed. Needless to say relying solely on memory can be quite faulty - especially over time. What a video does is match up what you saw with what you remember seeing. Of course it would also have saved a lot of time explaining to you what I saw. You could then sit there and spout your 'atheist' garbage to your hearts content. Yes, it would still be irrelevant - but at least you'd get to see what I saw.
I'm putting my money on the balloons or even the testing of small versatile and maneuverable UAV. I agree it would be in the best interests of both man and god if we were all given such an experience but we both know there is no God and so that isn't ever going to happen. Too bad no video - that would have been an interesting post, Michael
