UFO Case: The Mysterious Marfa Lights

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Xevious, Sep 23, 2002.

  1. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    Marfa is a small town tucked away in the Chawawa Desert of West Texas, 100 miles North of Big Beng Country and within close proximity to Fort Davis, Texas. The town itself in inhabited by no more than 2,000 people, and is perhaps at first glance most typical of a somewhat isolated but nonetheless spirited community. But after dark, the town is host to one of the most mysterious phenomenons in North America.

    In the summer of 1993, I was visiting the McDonald Observatory with my parents, when we were told of the Marfa Lights by local residences of Fort Davis. Intrigued, we set out to look at them. I took with me my 60mm Refractor Telescope. What I saw defied by imagination. A number of lights danced the sky, which would change colors and brightness as they moved. They stood still sometimes for significant lengths of time, and at those moments I was able to get good views through my 60mm telescope.

    Over the span of five minutes, I observed one of the lights. What look from a distance to be only one light was actually two very bright spheres sitting in close proximety. For a moment, one of them got much dimmer as one became brighter, and then they reversed the tend and the opposite light became brighter as the other dimmer. Then, in almost mirroring symetricy they morphed into teardrop shapes. After a moment they morphed again into saucer shapes. Suddenly, the two spheres morphed again this time into a single light. A bright red light then came from outside of the telescopes field of view and disappeared as it made contact it seems with the larger and brighter object. After a moment a green light appeared beneath the ball, and dropped away and out of my field of view. Suddenly, the object blinked out... and I looked up from my telescope to see that the light had disappeared.

    The next day, we spent our time in Marfa talking to local townspeople and reading what we could. The biggest question on my mind was: what was the phenomenon? One town resident told me that a cantelope-sized orb circled her head roughtly 10 times and flew away very rapidly. The Apache's have a legend about the phenomenon. They describe a lost indian chief who forever wanders that area, searching for his missing tribe by lighting campfires to signal them.

    After my trip to Marfa, I continued to study the phenomenon. The first clue to the mystery comes from the Texas Historical Marker located in a small viewing area made just for the phenomenon, just East of Marfa. The plaque reads:

    Skeptics most often claim that what people see are in fact car lights from I-67, a highway south of Marfa in which the lights do sometimes appear. This does not jive with the fact that the lights have been seen for thousands of years, nor does it jive with my own observations. St. Elmo's Fire has been proposed, but the conditions for St. Elmo's fire only occur in the Spring. Swam gas is an impossibility in the middle of the Desert. Still, many "skeptics" ignore the body of evidence indicating the existance of a very real phenomenon. It is my belief that the Marfa Lights are an unknown natural phenomenon, though they behave and seem to act much more like classic UFO sightings.
     
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  3. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

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    Since its apparantly a repeatable phenomenon (as opposed to most UFO sightings) I'm surprised it haven't been subject to some research. I think it could be very interesting indeed to investigate a phenomenon where you are not confined to anecdoticals. Do you have any idea why it has not been investigated?

    Btw, you are taking you mouth a bit full: You say it has been there for thousands of years; there is no way of knowing that, since no reliable history from that area exists going more than a few centuries back (not that a few centuries isnt enough, hehhe).

    Hans

    Edited to add this link:

    http://www.watchingyou.com/marfa.html

    Its a sceptics link, of course, wouldnt want to spoil my image, heheh.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2002
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  5. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    I have seen that website before and I don't have much respect for the author. His whole intention was to debunk and not to asertain what's going on and you can see this in the way he appraoches the subject.

    First off, he himself has not looked for the documents he wants. He is waiting for someone to find them for him, and that's not the way you persue an investigation. Think about it: If the Texas Historical Comission states their are such documents, (on the plaque), then he could find them simply by asking the Texas Historical Comission for copies. The fact that he has not persued such an blatantly obvious lead damaged his credibility, at least in my mind. Sounds like what you would consider a Pseudoscientists, doesn't it? Drawing conclusions while NOT looking for all the evidence?

    I degress, but you will find more of his additudes in the forum, where he downplays anyone who disagrees with him and even goes so far as to make fun of people in ways which go beyond disrespect. This is the kind of guy Hans, that you should be speaking against as a wolf in sheeps clothing skeptic. He CLAIMS to be one, but he in fact is not.

    As far as investigations go, their have been several including the television series "Unsolved Mysteries" which themselves dispatched a small team. (Unsolved Mysteries is a lot better than Sightings in credibility I think) Every time they moved closer to one of the lights, the light would move away from them. This account is similar to that in an article in Texas Monthly magazine, which itself investigated the phenomenon.

    I think the reason their aren't any real investigations and plenty of "skeptics" trying to debunk it is for the same reasons Yeti and Sasquatch are also similarly looked down upon. The phenomenon is highly elusive, and their are plenty of similar hoaxes in other locations, and their are no natural phenomenon which could possibly at this time fully explain the phenomenon. That and of course, their is no money to be made giving lectures on this phenomenon, or is their anything to be learned here which would really "advance" science. In other words, Scientists probably don't care.

    For the record Hans, THIS is the kind of paranormal phenomenon I love to work with. Their is plenty of evidence it's historical, it's observable if you can chatch it (my sighting was one of the more unusual even according to the towns people), and it's totally unknown.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2002
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  7. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

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    Well, I recognized he was a skeptic. But those lights --- they are there, every night. Now, if I could, I would go and have a look, but I'm half-way around the planet, however, why is everybody just standing there at the viewing site? I would start walking towards those lights. If it took all night, I would return next evening to the spot I left and and walk on. Why havent it been investigated?

    Hans

    Edited to add:

    Finding something new is the thing for scientists. Its impossible that some scientist should not be interested in using a few nights on this, I dont get it. ---- Unless its really only headlights and anecdotes --- top-down again, I'm afraid.

    You said you saw those lights being double in the telescope -- Mmmm --- merging and changing shape -- mirroring in warm air over a still-hot road in the cold evening air ---- YOU try to be open minded now, could it have been headlights?

    If I'm ever going in that vicinity, I'll be shure to have a look.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2002
  8. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

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    Xevious, I just now noticed your caption, "Truth beyond logic", mine should be "Truth through logic". I think its fine to seek the truth beyond logic, but such truth will have to be faith-based, wont it? And how can you you decide where to put your faith, except by logic?

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    Hans
     
  9. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    Leaping beyond logic is the human experience, Hans. This does not mean that logic does not have it's place, and indeed in many subjects (like this one), it should be the defining judge. However, I believe that their are plenty of things logic cannot judge. For example: is a fetus a human being? People still argue that, and their are logical arguments on both sides that lead to opposite conclusions. Logic is best at judging the tangible, but the intangible is something largely beyond it's grasp.

    As far as investigation goes, it's as I said, not something most scientists want to bother with. Their is no grant money to research it with, no prestige to be gained investigating it, and

    Back to the Marfa Lights. I don't think they were headlights because they were above and not on the horizon and not to meniton not along the highway. I don't argue howeve that some of the lights are headlights. Some people mistake headlights for Marfa Lights all the time, as did some of the others at the viewing area. I didn't leave the viewing area because I was not entirely familiar with the phenomenon at the time. I was curious to what it was.
     
  10. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

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    Mmm, Ok. The reason I ask is, yachting, I have often watched land lights from a distance at night, and a distant road looks very much like what you described. -- But I havent been to Marfa.

    Hans
     
  11. ted_roe Registered Senior Member

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    Earthlight research/Marfa lights

    I have been working with Dr. Erling Strand and Marsha Adams conducting research on so-called earthlights. This has been field work in addition to my duties with NARCAP. Marsha has done considerable work on the Marfa phenomena. Her presentation this year at the Society for Scientific Exploration conference outlined both her observations of headlights and other known light sources in the area as well as her documentation of the phenomena known as the Marfa lights. Additionally I have participated in several weeks of field studies with her and Dr. Strand at another location in the US with qualities similar to those at Hessdalen, Norway (Hessdalen.org). Technical reports, including magnetometer and spectrographic data, by a team of physicists at Hessdalen are available at itacomm.net . While Marsha and Erling (and I) have no explanation regarding the mechanism or source of these very unusual phenomena, it is certain that they exist and deserve a much closer look. Feel free to contact me for more info.
     
  12. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    There's your answer, Hans...
     
  13. ted_roe Registered Senior Member

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    Xevious and MRC Hans

    These light phenomena are truly strange. They have qualities and characteristics that one would not normally associate with light phenomena.

    An example would be a recent video Marsha and I shot at the US location I referred to earlier (not Marfa). While we were driving around surveying all possible light sources and recording their location by camcorder and gps, we captured about 14 seconds of a very bright rectangular light source, seemingly metallic, traversing our field of view from left to right, less than 2 miles away between us and a bluff. It blinked out over the site.

    When we examined it second by second we realized that what appeared to be a rectangular shape was actually a much thinner linear shape that was vibrating vertically creating the illusion of a rectangle. When we examined it frame by frame at 30 frames per second we saw an even more defined linear light source. At one point it seemed to send a bolt of energy or light to the ground - several seconds later, to our utter amazement, there appeared a halo of small, low intensity blue lights around the phenomena. And when I say "halo" I mean a ring of lights at about a mile radius around the light source and seemingly right on top of our position. Then the linear light source blinked out leaving this ring of blue lights that endured for most of a second afterword. As we were watching the main phenomena and the blue lights were low intensity, we did not see them. The whole observation took place just after noon on a very bright and hot day.

    At first we considered artifacts on the camcorder ccm or codex as a possible source. I suggested diffraction across the short wave radiation rising from the ground as a kind of mirage effect. I was wrong, the lights were too broadly and irregularly dispersed. One would expect an effected area perhaps 30 degrees wide in the center of the viewing area, not a 360 degree pattern. Anyway, this is one example.

    Other examples include orange egg shaped orbs that appear as pairs of lights when filmed digitally, and a variety of othe wierd stuff.

    The work is preliminary and won't be posted for awhile - Marsha presented some of it at the SSE convention.

    We have observed and taped many lights and other phenomena in this area. It is characterized as a Native American sacred site and is protected by a court injunction. There is a remarkable collection of petroglyphs on the site - some of them, I feel, represent observations of these lights -
     
  14. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    That would mean then if I read you right, that the situation at Marfa is just one of a large number of such earthlight sites throught the planet.

    Do you think these lights are an unknown natural phenomenon, and if so have you any theories as to what may cause them?
     
  15. ted_roe Registered Senior Member

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    Xevious

    Yes, we have identified a half dozen US locations we suspect are similar and we are learning about more potential sites internationally.

    These sites all seem to have, or have had, religious significance. Particularly to the indigineous peoples.

    As far as the mechanism, in general, some lighting displays are the result of tectonic activity. We have not validated this at this site - we are using ULF radios and other instruments. The geology is basically a cap of sandstone bedrock about 15ft thick over alluvium. The site is unique as it appears to located in a place that was either a meteor impact crater, a point where ejectae was splashed or it is a place where a bolide exploded above the ground. The morphology of the bedrock layer at the surface suggests terrific pressure and high temperatures for a very short duration. Some stones are split and filled with molten, foamed stone....

    The phenomena are so strange that I personally can't be certain they are natural or not. Some of the phenomena, particularly the orange orbs seem to have commonalties with other UAP reports - including some of our pilot reports. Some of the phenomena seem like solid objects but they have very unusual qualities, particularly when they disappear. It usually takes about a 15th of a second and they seem to collapse or implode, there is no trajectory, just a disappearance. It is a real mystery to me.

    The site itself is a river bluff with a small adjacent mesa. The mesa and bluff walls are covered with petroglyphs - see attached photo. I feel that some of these glyphs represent interactions with these lights by native people.
     
  16. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    Do the orbs, or the sites themselves posess electromagnetic properties?
     
  17. ted_roe Registered Senior Member

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    em properties

    Our work is preliminary and we have not come to that point yet. We intend to set up an observation station with a magnetometer and a spectrograph as well as some other instrumentation.

    The main reason I have participated in this work is that my group, NARCAP is concerned with unusual em sources that could effect avionics systems - microprocessors, etc.... so of course I am curious if these things are carrying a charge. I find it interesting that these things haven't started any fires in an area where they commonly occur. The location is extremely arid, inhospitably hot and certainly fire prone.

    As far as the site itself having unusual em properties, I can't elaborate beyond a simple "yes". As I said the work is preliminary.

    We have a lot more work to do before we can say anything definitive about these phenomena beyond simple descriptions. I think the technical reports at www.itacomm.net may hold some relevance for us - check it out. Interestingly enough, the EMBLA team at Hessdalen obtained some remarkable Dopplar radar data that may suggest further unusual characteristics..... Dr. Strand, the lead at Hessdalen, has been to this site and concurs that the phenomena seem similar to Hessdalen.

    I think that as far as natural phenomena are concerned, phenomena involving electrical properties tend to be fairly short duration. Some exceptions might include ball lightening - whatever that is, and some tectonic lighting displays. So, when these phenomena are maintaining a cohesive shape, dividing and recombining, etc and doing it over the course of ten or more minutes sometimes longer, we are left with few easy answers.
     
  18. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    Are accounts like my own a-typical of the phenomenon, or at the least, not extremely remote? Has this kind of behavior ever been recorded from an Earth Light?
     
  19. ted_roe Registered Senior Member

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    Xevious said, "A number of lights danced the sky, which would change colors and brightness as they moved. They stood still sometimes for significant lengths of time, and at those moments I was able to get good views through my 60mm telescope.

    Over the span of five minutes, I observed one of the lights. What look from a distance to be only one light was actually two very bright spheres sitting in close proximety. For a moment, one of them got much dimmer as one became brighter, and then they reversed the tend and the opposite light became brighter as the other dimmer. Then, in almost mirroring symetricy they morphed into teardrop shapes. After a moment they morphed again into saucer shapes. Suddenly, the two spheres morphed again this time into a single light. A bright red light then came from outside of the telescopes field of view and disappeared as it made contact it seems with the larger and brighter object. After a moment a green light appeared beneath the ball, and dropped away and out of my field of view. Suddenly, the object blinked out... and I looked up from my telescope to see that the light had disappeared. "

    Xevious, these observations are very similar to those at the site I was referring to. We have recorded activity like this.... The variety of colors displayed as well as the interactive or morphing qualities of the lights all seem consistent. I believe Marsha has recorded this type of thing at Marfa, the site I referenced and several others in the US....

    Two relevent websites... the first I offer with a caveat that the conclusions offered by the author regarding ET or paranormal sources are premature but the photos are worth a look... www.orbwatch.com

    The second is hessdalen.org - they have an automated camera system set up with three triangulating observations stations using magnetometer, spectrograph and radar. When the phenomena occurs, it is photographed and automatically uploaded to the web. A lot of the photos are small red, yellow or white lights at low altitude - but occasionally something more dynamic manifests.....

    Hey, theres another one referring to activity in Brown Mountain, NC but I don't recall the URL.

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  20. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    What are the general criteria for EarthLights, and how does it distinguish itself as a differnt phenomenon from Unidentified Flying Objects?
     
  21. ted_roe Registered Senior Member

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    Xevious

    Sorry to lag, I have a life....
    I think that feature which most distinguishes "earthlights" from other UAP is that they don't seem to have qualities of a solid object... they seem like energy that is cohesive in a manner that science does seem to be familiar with. The technical reports at itacomm.net are interesting. What one doesn't expect is radar returns.

    Some explanations for these phenomena include tectonic activity causing piezo-electric discharges. I don't think this explanation is adequate, though it might explain some observations. These phenomena are not "earthquake lights". They occur even during relatively quiet periods of geologic activity.

    Another strange commonality is that those who spend a long time directly observing these phenomena seem to come away with the impression that there is an interactive quality between the phenomena and the observer. An example would be when Dr. Strand pointed a laser-pointer at one of the lights, it changed the frequency of pulsation.

    I just recieved a letter from Erling describing the phenomena... you might find it interesting. Please excuse his grammer, he is Norwegian after all.

    "The number of observations of UAP in the small valley Hessdalen, in Norway,is several hundreds, from the "start" in December 1981 and up until now. The periode of highest observation rate was between the end of 1981 to the start
    of 1985. At the most there could be up to 20 a week. After that periode, the number went down to approx. 20 reported observation a year. The automatic measurement station we put up there in 1998 has recorded approx 50 sightnings a year. Many of those is short-lived, less than a second, but also some with a long living time.

    In the beginning of the 80's, people in Hessdalen saw that the intensity of the light often dimmed down when a plane passed by. The light was very often close to the ground. When the plane has gone, the light increased in intensity again.

    We have very few reports were the light follow a plane. There is one of those reports from the Hessdalen area, back in the 50'ies. From my memory: It was a military transporter going from Trondheim towards south when a light showed up on one side of the plane. The plane did loose high, and fell toward the ground. The pilots tried to get it up, but did not managed. The light went from one side to the other side, and back again when this
    happened. The light dissappeared, and the pilots managed to get the plane up, just in time before a crash. This was very dramatic for those inside the plane." - Dr. Erling Strand

    Erling describes both short and long duration phenomena. We have the same observations at the US sites. I think he is understating the number of observations. By simply extrapolating the number of observations we made in two week long field studies, the phenomena at the US site manifest daily, or nearly so. Basically whenever it is dark enough to see them, though we have daylight observations as well.

    Getting back to your question, some of these lights reported at these sites share commonalities with our pilot reports. The issue there is that the same phenomena that manifests at one location would have to be mobile, and able to manifest at altitude. The orange orbs are a good example of a phenomena that is reported widely and that also manifests in one location.
    It is a mystery....

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  22. Xevious Truth Beyond Logic Registered Senior Member

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    I have a life too, so I'll assume that comment wasn't a jab at me

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    Ted Roe, I do appriciate your information reguarding the phenomenon. It's shed light on the issue for me. I'll keep in touch and keep watching.
     
  23. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

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    Quite interesting! From what we have now, it looks like a durable natural phenomenon. The fact that some of the sites have become religious sites shows that the phenomenon has been there for a long time. I dont get the one about plate tectonics; to my knowledge, Norway, and probably Marfa, are far from any zones of recent tectonic activity. Still, the unusual geological features seem to be a common denominator.

    So, Hessdalen is near Trondheim? I've just been past Trondheim last week, hehe. Didnt see anything exept polar lights though. But, I'll stay tuned.

    Hans
     

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