The only problem is that whenever anyone is found out to have any mental problems and are diagnosed and given medications to keep them stabalized sometimes those people don't take their medications and can "fly off the handle" at times causing great concern and sometimes injuries to themselves or others.
thank you! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Another shooting at another college. First thing they are gonna look at is if he had a mental illness, not if he had cancer, MS, TB, etc. Asguard, I'm not a bigot for wondering if he was mentally ill as well.
Send a PM to the Moderator of this subforum. We all try to let each other take care of their own bailiwicks. It's because of the War on Drugs. The government has begun second-guessing the decisions of doctors and reclassifying "pain management" as "overmedication" and "leading to addiction." They have actually prosecuted a few doctors for disagreeing with their medical decisions. Doctors have become afraid to manage pain. And the large contingent of Americans who think everyone should "suck it up" are cheering them. Until they get old of course.
Ok I have reread your post and i have a few comments too: KMGuru: 1. Long term Anxiety coupled with higher stress levels progresses towards Depression. ” Asguard: This is the one i have problems with, not saying your wrong i would just like to see who your sorces are (or your data and method if you did the resurch yourself) Research was done many years ago, I moved on, so do not have the hard data. But I also experienced it from observing my extended family and friends. Granted someone need to do some serious scientific studies. The way to do that is to enroll a large sample population and monitor them over many years. Normally medical community does not do large samples out side the community. Do your research and you will find out that is true. So, the results would be skewd. My experience comes from my knowledge in Stress (Textbook: Stress of Life by Dr. Hans Seyle) and teaching Stress Management in conjunction with Yoga and Meditation to college kids and in private. It will take an hour to explain the interconnecting logic. KMGuru: 2. If you are in the Anxiety mode, drugs such as Ativan, Xanax can help, but one does not have to continue if the factors are relieved. Asguard: Anxiaty CAN be treated mostly with seditives (like diazapam) in the short term but techniques like diaphramatic breathing and deep mussle relaxation have beter results. Also SSRI's can be used as an imediate treatment for anziaty because they also have the calming effect (This is from personal experiance and what the clinical psycologist told and showed me, will need to spend some time finding the resurch to back it up though) Come on...you are telling to a yoga guru. I know all about breathing etc. Stress is due to external factors that overwhelm a sane person. I went through that too - so I needed a temporary relief...like people eat stuff and get stomach cramps or acid reflux....it happens....normally I use Melatonin at night to create a calming effect....Ativan is LORAZEPAM. Diazapam is a benzodiazepine family otherwise called Valium which no one in the family tested. But many years ago, the doctors in Utah were giving this to many Mormon housewives like candies. Utah had the highest user of Valium per capita in USA.... they may have switched to a more powerful drug now. KMGuru: 3. Once you are to the level of Depression, you need a lot of external help to come out of it. Simply stopping the drugs would have severe side effects. ” Asguard: Your right that simply stoping the drugs can have lots of side effects because they are adictive but this has nothing to do with depression progression, it has to do with how the drugs work (again drugs are a short term "fix" until the techniques to treat the disorder can be learnt) Most old doctors do not have a background in human body control system, I am not sure if they teach the mathematics of control system to doctors today. Among other things, the side effect comes from the body losing its Homeostasis. KMGuru: 4. Prolonged stress with Depression moved towards bi-polar disorder Asgurad: This i belive is wrong, bipolar is a genetic disorder that isnt a progression from clinical depression at all. I dont have any evidence for this right now but i will try to find some. I DO know that unless you have a family member with bipolar you are VERY unlikly to get it where as clinical depression can show up independently or with a family history (of clinical depression or bi polar, however it doesnt work the other way around) I should have qualified this with a "I believe" that is because, two of our friends had this problem. I did a little research then and concluded my thinking. Read the book of the Oliver Sacks (The man who mistook his wife for a hat). He does not talk about genetic disorder. It is easy to label many things as genetic disorder...some are...some may not be. Based on control theory, Bipolar seems like a oscillation of the feedback and feedforward mechanism. This looks like an instability in the control system. Unless you are born with it, later development should be based on a faulty sensory logic that recycles in the mind which in turn acts on the neurotransmitters. Because it is difficult for medical professionals to view the mental logic, they just infer the physiological symptoms. Again it will take some explaining on how Stress causes the brain logic to create stessful symptoms. Modern humans do not live in caves where an approacing tiger or bear create that stress symptom (fight or flight)....yet there it is we all go through that living in Urban Jungle. That logic itself has much more influence than people give credit for. KMGuru: 5. Childhood issues if not resolved at the adult level can make a person susceptible to Depression. Asguard: Your right about this. This is shown in studies dealing with adults who have been abused as children. However this is not ALWAYS the case, there is a genetic componant and it can come on for no reason that we can tell as well. My kid was exposed to a violent event when she was 5 years old during a sleepover. She got scared and left the neighbours house around 2 AM and came knocking on our door (The neighbour was beating his wife) . That traumatic event still surfaces once in a while indirectly even if she now knows what happened. Again, I could qualify my statement, but hey...this is a discussion board.... KMGuru: 6. One has a better control when one is in the Anxiety level than Depression level. ” Asguard: I would dissagree with this. Firstly as i said im not convinced that ALL depression results from anxiaty, but more importantly anxiaty CAN be just as dibilitating as depression. You have compleatly ignored agrophobia (ie the fear of panic atacks) Again forget the genetic issues. If we keep keep writing disclaimers or qualify each statements....our fineprints will be longer than our statements. Can we agree on that all thoughts are based on ones self logic? People have got over Phobias from hypnosis...that is another subject. The point I may fail to make is that certain logic in the mind is so complex that just awareness is not enough to undo that logic. But others...that are temporary can be managed. My conclusion comes from the Decision Theory...I can not explain fully, unless the other party understands Decision Theory well. Human mind constantly seeks to optimize the decision process whether you are playing cards or football or walking out from your home. KMGuru: 7. Because the stressors complicate things and doctors usually do not have a good handle on the subject...they usually prescribe Simbalta, Lexpro, Prozac etc and call it a day. By the time you are at that level, the brain has already rewired itself to a different mental model and hence it is very difficult to undo the damage - but not impossible. ” Asguard: You are very right, medication is usless with out the psycological back up, but remember this can be ineffective on some cases. Some people (like myself) keep having depressive cycles. My psycologist was telling me he was actually TREATING another psycologist because HE was suffering depression. He knew all the techniques because he taught them to other people and he KNEW what he was suffering but he still required treatment. Knowlage isnt the cure in all cases Psychologists do not have a full deck to work with. This I know, because when my sister was studying to be a psychiatrist (She has a MD) I went through her text books and we had long debates over the Decision Theory and Control Systems (I have a PhD in Electrical Engineering with major in Control Theory) that doctors do not learn....Knowledge is a cure if you have the right Knowledge.... KMGuru: 8. If we know how to reprogram the brain (with both logic and information), we can come close to solving this problem. Chemicals can not do that. Asguard: Your right for most cases but not always (see my example above). Also bipolar CANT be treated this way. Lithiam is the ONLY treatment for bi polar, there is no psycological cure, only treatment to stablise the mood For people who are born with physical defects....there is not much you can do. But if the defect is the result of ones exposure to faulty thinking, then that can be repaired through reprogramming. That is what I meant. The girl who had Bi-polar for 6 years got married, now a lawyer and is free from the disorder...though it flairs up once a while but getting progressively farther apart in time. Asguard: As for your second post i would like to see the origional study, i have a university breed doubt of wikipedia. This is nothing against you but its to easy to edit a wikipedia artical by anyone rather than peer reviewed articals or meta analis Since anyone can edit it (not anymore) the professionals should be able to....
You said that your "battle is to make people think of mental illness no differently than they think of a person with cancer, ie with empathy and compassion but not fear or contempt". But frankly, Asguard, if you are going to discuss these things the way you have with me, you are not doing much to promote treating depressed people with empathy and compassion. I am not convinced by someone who jumps to conclusions, argues from strawmen, makes veiled ad hominems, and last but not least, spells poorly.
I know. I have two of my family members who have herniated discs due to accidents...I know what they are going through...back surgery is not recommended because they are young and the neurologist said most of the time back surgery does not help because we do not have a good surgery solution at this time.
kmguru i agree with you about the fact that if we keep doing this we will end up with a page a mile long. I DID just want to qualifie one thing though, and that is that there IS a difference between different types of psycologists and psycologists and psyciritrists CLINICAL psycologists (the ones i was refering to) study a 4 year degree, THEN they do at least a masters (the one i had did a PHD because he was also a proffessor) and THEN they do 6 years under another clinical psycologist before they can practice Your right about doctors and psycirtists though, one year study (mostly focusing on psyco pharmocology) and one year internship. If you still think that is not enough to know what they are talking about fair enough but i thought i should qualifie that
That is exactly what I meant. The brain is a complex organism. I have a complete medical background and control theory and computer science. I was admitted to do a MD-PhD program in neuroscience. I have done research in artificial intelligence. So I have a lot more understanding than people who are in clinical psychology but not MDs. At the end of the day, I have barely scratched the surface. (At this time I am focusing on other things...) So, bottom line is current state of knowledge is lacking, we can not be sure of anything. May be that is why the topic of this thread would not provide any good answers...only opinions...
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!Mod stepping in Asguard, I understand this subject is very important to you. And it is very easy to become very emotional when dealing with a subject that is so important to you. However it does not give you the right to call people idiots, accuse them of discrimination, etc, because they happen to question your understanding of depression or because they happen to disagree with you or because you have failed to catch the actual gist of the other's post. I will not delete the insults made in this thread up to now. But if this continues, I will begin to delete and issue warnings or recommend warnings as necessary for everyone concerned.
To follow up on this, see the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23171567 As I have said in my posts, very few people understand how exactly the drugs affect people...here is a quote from PDRhealth on one of the drugs. Special warnings about Lexapro In clinical studies, antidepressants increased the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children and adolescents with depression and other psychiatric disorders. Anyone considering the use of Lexapro or any other antidepressant in a child or adolescent must balance this risk with the clinical need. Lexapro has not been studied in children or adolescents and is not approved for treating anyone less than 18 years old. Additionally, the progression of major depression is associated with a worsening of symptoms and/or the emergence of suicidal thinking or behavior in both adults and children, whether or not they are taking antidepressants. Individuals being treated with Lexapro and their caregivers should watch for any change in symptoms or any new symptoms that appear suddenly—especially agitation, anxiety, hostility, panic, restlessness, extreme hyperactivity, and suicidal thinking or behavior—and report them to the doctor immediately. Be especially observant at the beginning of treatment or whenever there is a change in dose. Lexapro makes some people sleepy. Until you know how the drug affects you, use caution when driving a car or operating other hazardous machinery. In rare cases, Lexapro can trigger mania (unreasonably high spirits and excess energy). If you've ever had this problem, be sure to let the doctor know. ------------------------------- Pharmacodynamics The mechanism of antidepressant action of escitalopram, the S-enantiomer of racemic citalopram, is presumed to be linked to potentiation of serotonergic activity in the central nervous system (CNS) resulting from its inhibition of CNS neuronal reuptake of serotonin (5-HT). In vitro and in vivo studies in animals suggest that escitalopram is a highly selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) with minimal effects on norepinephrine and dopamine neuronal reuptake. Escitalopram is at least 100-fold more potent than the R-enantiomer with respect to inhibition of 5-HT reuptake and inhibition of 5-HT neuronal firing rate. Tolerance to a model of antidepressant effect in rats was not induced by long-term (up to 5 weeks) treatment with escitalopram. Escitalopram has no or very low affinity for serotonergic (5-HT1-7) or other receptors including alpha- and beta-adrenergic, dopamine (D1-5), histamine (H1-3), muscarinic (M1-5), and benzodiazepine receptors. Escitalopram also does not bind to, or has low affinity for, various ion channels including Na+ , K+ , Cl− , and Ca++ channels. Antagonism of muscarinic, histaminergic, and adrenergic receptors has been hypothesized to be associated with various anticholinergic, sedative, and cardiovascular side effects of other psychotropic drugs. -------------------------------------- When you have something 100 times more potent than the base level, all sorts of stuff will happen when you stop taking the drugs. One would be 100 times psychotic....
It is my opinion that psychiatry and psychology is partially based on the opinions that doctors (MD’s and PhD’s) have about other people. Some of these opinions are based on the data that was obtained from various scientific studies, and some of the opinions are purely subjective. Some people would argue that psychology isn’t really a science, and psychiatrists are just psychologists that have a license to prescribe medication. I think it is a valid argument because some psychiatrists spend too much time focusing on the Freudian / psychological side of their field (something that can be very subjective) instead of focusing on the biological causes of the various psychiatric disorders. I believe that psychology / psychiatry is a science, but there are some things about it that is more theoretical than scientific.
Good thread. I have so much to say on the subject of depression, I don't even know where to begin...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Mine is anxiety caused and I have the genetic predisposition (is that the right term? sorry I am Greek) from my mother's side (my mother has it too in a slightly different form). I have been studying depression for quite a few years to understand what is happening to me, doing therapy, I also took medication for about 6 months. I believe it was necessary for me at the time. Anyway, about the stigma. I think it is mostly lack of information and also that people are a bit afraid. They don't know what to expect from a person with a mental disorder. There is a sort of guide for Greek journalists on the web by the Greek Institute for Mental Health on how to avoid stigma when writing an article etc, and I bet that they don't even know it exists. You can tell by watching the news. Nine times out of ten they will say after a murder that the killer had "psychological problems". It used to piss me off but now it doesn't. People are entitled to their opinions but they are also responsible for them.
Medical schools are the only major institutions that still teach Freudian theory. Everywhere else--business, sociology, psychology, literature--they use Jung. I always steer people to non-medical psychotherapists instead of psychiatrists (MDs). Not only can they not try to solve your problems with medication, but it's also far easier to find a Jungian among them.
Lexapro does nothing except make your head tingle. Zoloft works though :S @ Bells lol yea you tell'm but why can't they make insults and stuff, is being called an idiot really so bad Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
DarksidZz: is being called an idiot really so bad Shouldn't be especially if one is frustrated by stupidity, but hey she's the mod. Asguard: I agree with you for the most part and your outline of protocol is pretty standard in most Western countries. It will take a long time for the stigma around mental illness to be understood, look at the thread its dripping with judgement, misinformation and examples of violence when the stats suggest that: Many violent people have no history of mental disorder and most (90%) of people with mental illness have no history of violence. Only a small proportion of violence in society is attributable to mental illness (studies suggest up to 10%). The use of drugs or alcohol has a stronger association with violence than does mental illness. A small proportion of people with a psychotic illness may show violent behaviour, usually in the context of ineffective treatment, drug or alcohol use or in relation to distressing hallucinations or delusions. http://www.mindframe-media.info/site...?display=85541 Outside of the West many mental health facilities are little more than drug pushing prisons where there are no patient rights and so abuse runs rife, where there is a lack of correct diagnoses, where meds are not appropriately administered and observed and where there is a lack of qualified professionals or knowledge of cognitive behavioral therapy, nevermind traditional psychotherapy. The West is much more progressive and yet there is still this general stigma, and from what I can tell from some posts absolutely zero understanding of what a clinical depression actually is never mind other varieties of mental illness. Has anyone ever read The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat? I would suggest that to anyone who doubts that a mental disorder can be directly related to physical causes. Oliver Sacks writes about his patients who suffered from neurological and neuropsychiatric conditions. These are also interesting: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=infected-with-insanity http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/03/mind-cannot-beat-cancer
depression is treated partly with medications such has prozac, and it has a good succesful rate, secondly the person has got to want to make the changes, lots of people who are depressed need medications,
Have a family member who is diagnosed with Major Depression with Psychotic features and a Borderline Personality Disorder. He has tried to kill himself many times (he wasn’t trying to seek attention), he was almost successful twice and is very lucky to be alive. This is a serious disorder and a huge strain on the family, nothing to joke about. He has been hospitalized several times the longest for 4 years and heavily medicated. Today he refuses to take any medications and has learned to avoid saying anything that will get him sent back to the hospital. He has not been suicidal recently but his mental illness had manifested itself in other areas and we think this is from the lack of medications, and he cannot be forced to take them as he is no longer considered a threat to himself. My aunt read in his journal (she secretly does this to try to keep up with his thoughts and he spends hours writing each night as if a mad writer) that he wanted to pay some woman or man to rub dirty baby diapers in his face after slapping him and spiting on him. This is not during sexual activity or anything related to sex or anything with kids, (We also know he has no interest in anything involving children as he dislikes kids and has never shown interest in them or even wanted them around him, even family members that are children he keeps at a distance.) (Go figure one redeeming quality huh) Then recently a neighbor explained to my aunt that my cousin had offered to pay her $100.00 dollars to do this plus mow her yard and wash her car at no charge but she politely declined knowing he had mental problems and the fact she was friends with my aunt, (Wonder if she would have done this if he wasn’t mentally ill, but then who would ask for this if they were sane) When my aunt contacted the psychiatrist that had once been his doctor he said there was nothing he could do since it wasn’t life threatening or threatening anyone else and since my cousin was an adult and had refused medication his hands were tied. Great help huh? Depression and mental illness are very serious problems not to mention a huge strain on not only the person suffering from such afflictions but the entire families of those who suffer as well.
