God does exist.

*Avatar starts bashing his head against a wall

 

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The presence of crime and criminals does not invalidate the existence of God. Free will and the presence of evil explains crime and criminals.

I didn't say that. Please don't put words in my mouth. You said your god saves us from the world, I said he is doing a bad job because he is not saving us from anything. And besides, if your god existed, there would be no free will.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, character attacks do nothing to amplify your position.

It is your position that you are unable to understand your gods logic. You said it yourself therefore you are attacking your own character. I was merely pointing out the obvious.

Evidence does not have to meet your criteria to be qualified as evidence.

The evidence should meet standard criteria, do you need me to quantify that for you ?

You can 'chat' with Him all you want to, through prayer.

No thanks, I prefer to chat with someone as opposed to chatting with myself. Prayer is not a form of conversation.

But, he (God) said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

How convenient. How did he convey these words without showing himself ? How do you know these words were not in the minds of the men who wrote them ? Nowadays, when people hear voices, they are categorized as schizophrenic.

 

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Logic and mathematics work perfectly in super-dimensional theories there is nothing there that 'defies logic'. In fact, the use of additional dimensions simplifies the mathematics and logic of quantum theory... that is why they were brought into use in the first place.

This is the same old 'God of the Gaps' argument Marc. As we come to know more about our Universe some concepts of God are continually reduced in scope so that God can fit into the remaining 'gaps' the unknown areas. Eventually, this path reduces God to something entirely ineffectual... what use is a God that hides from us?

~Raithere

 

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Jan,

From your perspective, of course. Given the myriads of definitions people have for gods is it any wonder that my objections do not quite match with your personal imaginative fantasy and interpretation.

In the absence of any objective evidence for such things religionists such as you will always be able create other imaginative explanations for your creations. Much like a cartoon artist can create impossible situations for his cartoon characters.

Yes, it is known as the laws of physics, and as such, not only is there no need for a god to intervene there is no need for a god to exist. In which case why create one?

Of course. But then there is no need for gods to exist for us to have this. This is a natural result of our evolutionary history.

No, only where they represent logical impossibilities.

I don’t know, please give me a verse reference. We were talking about attempting to prove a negative; Christianity was not the issue.

You mean I don’t understand your personal interpretation of what you think a god should be. There is no source of such a fantasy except inside your head.

 

"In my opinionated view - the more man discovers about science - the less atheists there will be."

You realize even this hypothesis is not happening. You realize the number of Thiests has declined over the past 300 years? Why would that declention change?

This directly says that there will be more and more evidence for god. This implys that there is evidence for god. Why haven't we found any, hmm maybe it doesn't exist....

"SO THERE IS LACK OF EYEWITNESSES AND TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST? BILLIONS AFTER BILLIONS ISNT ENOUGH?"

MUSCLEMAN: stop talking in frikking caps you dumbass! There are not billions of eyewitnesses for jesus. WHERE THE HELL are those eyewitnesses. Not only would they be dead, but obviously even if there were billions of them, not all of them would have been recorded. On the contrary, next to no eyewitness testimonies have come up. Unless of course, you mean people that say they have seen jesus in some white light or whatever.

Let me ask you something muscleman: Do you belive in aliens?

"LOL, I JUST PROVED YOU WRONG IN YOUR PATHETIC "PREDETERMINATION" IDEA (MANY'S BELIEF), LOL."

LOL, stop talking in caps. Dumbass. You clearly didn't understand his argument.

1. God knows everything

2. God knows Everything that will happen

3. Free will requires choice and uncertainty about what that choice will be

4. God already knows how you will die, live, etc.

5. Nothing can contradict Gods knowlege

6. THEREFORE: (here is the part you didn't understand), Everything is preordained by GOD'S knowlege.

7. AND Since everything is preordained and everything can happen only ONE way (the way in God's mind), THEN free will and choice can only HAPPEN one way, therefore taking away the choice and the free will with it.

FREE WILL CAN NOT EXIST IF YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN!

"THEN WHAT DOES THAT MAKE OF ME? GOD?"

Thats right muzzleman, your debating skills don't exist either.

"THEN AFTERWARDS THEY IGNORED ME AND SAID I HAVENT ANSWERED THEM AND THAT I IGNORED THEM"

Perhaps you are unaware that you have done this to me and anyone else that contradicts you, even to theists.

You say you are still waiting for a biblical contradiction? How bout the fact that it says earth formed only 15,000 years ago?

 

French,

Nice try, but I think we can both predict what type of response will come back. It would be nice to see the end of caps though.

 

Your right, because Jesus prophesied it, he said "When I return, will there be any faith left on earth". You are fulfilling Jesus prophesy, the fact is almost everyone back then are believers of God, now humans think they are God, you are an example...ARE YOU ONCE AGAIN DENYING THE REALITY OF THAT? LOL, Im not surprised, after all your an atheist, you dont accept reality, your a pure delusion, believeing there is no God when the fact is no evidence supports yoour pure belief.......

Yes billions of eyewitnesses, in a physical sense or in a spirtual sense. Billions after billions, millions are alive today, who testified God is present within them. YOU THINK THEY ARE LYING? THEN FRENCH WAR, NAPOLEON, SHAKESPEARE, ETC. IS A LIE AS WELL, CAN YOU PROVE IT TO ME OTHERWISE?

I dont, do you? I only believe in claims with proof, Im not delusional and believe in Giant purple squid monkey, aliens, atheism, and nature as chance, all these have one thing in common. THERE ARENT ANY EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM. So I wont be surprised if you believe in UFO's and giant toothfairies, thats on you...

A claim can b proven fake by lack of evidence. What evidence do u have of tooth fairy? How many eyewitnesses? Millions? If tooth fairies plucked out a teeth, is there any scientific investigation done to it?/ If so can u show it? How many testified? Show me healing, supernatural/miracles documented in the name of tooth fairy. How many died for tooth fairy to verify its value? / Thousands? Is there a Historical location of it? If so, where? Give up? Well tooth fairy because of its lack of evidence is fake. Period...

again YOUR THE ONE WHO DONT UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "KNOWLEGDE" AND "DECIDING", PREDETERMINED MEANS "DECIDING IT FOR YOU IN ADVANCE", GOD IS ALL KNOWING, YOU AND CRIS ARE JACKED UP IN THE HEAD, AND U WONDER WHY I TYPE IN CAPS? BECAUSE YOU SEEM ILLITERATE!!! DO YOU GET THAT? HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT? WHAT PART OF "K-N-O-W-I-N-G" DONT YOU UNDERSTAND? WHAT PART OF "D-E-C-I-D-I-N-G" DONT YOU UNDERSTAND? TELL ME, WHAT PART OF THOSE WORDS DONT U UNDERSTAND?

KNOWING IS KNOWLEDGE, FREE-WILL "WILL" IS ACTION, "PREDTERMINED" MEANING...

pre·or·dain ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prôr-dn)
tr.v. pre·or·dained, pre·or·dain·ing, pre·or·dains

1.) To appoint, decree, or ordain in advance; foreordain.
----------------------------
pre·de·ter·mine ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prd-tûrmn)
v. pre·de·ter·mined, pre·de·ter·min·ing, pre·de·ter·mines
v. tr.

1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: “These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome” (Jessica Mitford).
2. To influence or sway toward an action or opinion; predispose.
-------------------------------


GOD DIDNT APPOINT THINGS FOR YOU IN ADVANCE, HE DIDNT MAKE U DO WHAT YOU WANT YOU DO, WHAT YOU DO IS NOT YOUR MAMA'S ACTION BUT YOUR ACTION, STUPID.
GOD IS ALL KNOWING, NOT ALL DOING TODAY, OR IN THE FUTURE, AGAIN, GOD DIDNT MAKE YOU DO WHAT YOU DO TODAY, OR TOMMORROW, HE JUST KNOWS WHAT YOU DO TODAY AND TOMMORROW.

AGAIN GOD IS ALL KNOWING, OMNISCIENCE, NOT ALL DOING TODAY AND TOMMORROW........

Quote the sentence where it says that, LOL, Im waiting....

 

Muscleyall,

So does this mean your brain sinned?

That is a very odd statement.

So by this logic we should kill all infants at birth right? You really need to get your head out of your ass boy.

but that all youve done. Said that there are billions of eyewitnesses. You have done nothing to back up your statement.

 

inspector,

And how does this justifie what god did to job?

Ive explained why i dont consider the bible a reliable source, becasue its the only place many of those stories are found and for the most part it was written several hundered years after the events were supposed to take place.

The prophesies dont mean much because most of them are so vague that the could be mean anything. And then there's the problem that the prophesy and the event that the prophesy was supposed to predtic can only be found in the bible.

Big booming voice in the sky would be nice. On a more relaistic level it would take some event happening that is completely forbidden by the laws of science and can only be done by god, so far no event fits those requirements. To extend that to the christian god it would take the resolution omniscience paradoxes.

 

Neutrino, child, God allowed saints to die, but life doesnt end there, in fact this life is so short, but your soul lives forever, the energy that gives you live doesnt expire at all.
The children were struck down for their own good, they will have a better life after. And their elders were struck down because of their sins and wicked ways. Thanks to Jesus who died for us and took away the sin that belongs to us. Now we dont have to be stoned to death because Jesus has done that for us already....

Look in TBN, those people testified God is alive, present, and existing, some may physically saw him, others felt him, by whatever means, they are testimonies.

World Youth Day in Toronto Canada this year, MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN TEENS GATHERED TO SING AND WORSHIP GOD, they are testimonies of God's existence.
Tune to TBN, thousands upon thousands praying to God every week. There are 2 billion christians worldwide, all who testify God exists, that excludes billions upon billions who died.

And you might say "What about the hindu and muslim peeps, they also testified about their gods"..

Indeed there are many spirits in the world, many gods, many idols. But the bible said "THOU SHALL NOT HAVE OTHER GODS BEFORE ME". Indeed Christianity acknowledges other gods and idols, BUT ONLY THE GOD OF ABRAHAM (in other words the God of humble, meek, hardworking, and virtues) IS THE REAL GOD, the rest are nothing. The god of the wicked, perverts, losers, and cowards are nothing compared to the God of virtous. (This is another topic)...

Now you think they are lying? WELL THEN, SHAKESPEARE, KING HENRY, QUEEN ELIZABETH IS ALSO A MYTH, THOSE WHO TESTIFIED THAT THEY EXIST AND WROTE IT DOWN ARE ALSO LYING, PERIOD....


Note: Its really hard to respond to teens, especially atheist kids, because their brain hasnt fully developed, but you know what, this is hard but Ill do it anyways, and only because I love God...

 

LOL, so you ask supernatural proof for the existence of God? Well then, bleeding statues, healing of incurable cancers science cant explain (which they call "Placebo"). Stigmata. Prophesies. Miracles (Lady of Guadalupe, Lady of Lourdes, Fatima, etc.). Need I say more, there are tons after tons of supernatural proof of God, like the "Big Booming sound" you ask for...but you know what...I take Jesus words...He said...

"An evil and wicked generation will ask for a sign, but not one will be given to them except that of Jonah".

The sign of Jonah was "repentance", people repented and worshipped God because of the preaching of Jonah..

"The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this
generation and condemn it, because they repented at the
preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here."
(Mt 12:41)

ATHEIST AND WICKED PEOPLE. THE ONLY SIGN YOU WILL SEE IS PEOPLE REPENTING, GIVING PRAISE AND WORSHIP TO GOD, REVEALED BY THE SPIRIT. HUMAN RACE AT THE END WILL BE DIVIDED, ONE SIDE ARE THE WICKED (LOSERS AND COWARDS), THE OTHER ARE THE STRONG AND FAITHFULL.
THE WICKED AND YOU WILL SAY TO YOURSELF "HOW CAN THIS BE SINCE I SEE NO SIGN GOD EXIST?" THERE IS TONS OF EVIDENCE FOR GOD, BUT YOU NEED TO OPEN YOUR HEART TO SEE THEM, BUT BECAUSE YOUR HEART IS EVIL, YOU SEE NOTHING GOOD, BUT ONLY SEE EVIL IN WHICH YOUR HEART DESIRES.

"Seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you".

THATS WHAT ATHEIST NEEDS, ALOT OF PATIENCE, FAITH, AND HUNGER. YOUR ALL LOSERS, EASILY GIVES UP, NO PATIENCE, NO FAITH, AND NO DESIRE FOR THE REASON OF LIFE, YOUR ALL COWARDS AND LOSERS (I CAN GENERALIZE THAT FOR ALL OLD AND MATURE ATHEIST), YOU GO BY THE FLOW, YOU DO WHAT THE WORLD TELLS YOU....

 

'On a more relaistic level it would take some event happening that is completely forbidden by the laws of science and can only be done by god, so far no event fits those requirements.'
----------------------------------------------------

Forbidden by the laws of science? Friend, God CREATED science. Everything you see in nature is evidence for God. The problem with atheism is that it can only attempt to disprove theistic evidences. Other than that, there is no foundation for atheists' beliefs...........and atheism IS a belief and requires faith. It is a lose/lose situation.



Supyall,

I think you are being a little harsh on these atheists. Remember 1 Peter 3:15? Gentleness and respect? You know as well as I do that our words cannot save them, only Jesus can do that. Keep up the good work, though.

><>

 

is there or isn't there...

Lots of rabid thoughts in this continuing thread. Lots of "quotes" from the bible and book of job which by the way, was written by ordinary, opinionated, less advanced humans (in relation to what is known now).. professing to know the truth about everything according to "them".

The funny part about this is that some of you foam at the mouth in defending these "so-called profound truths" which have never been authenticated to be fact, but are only some local ancient gossip heresay passed down through generations of villagers etc. This became the so-called bible.

Do you realize how many times a piece of info gets embellished? Especially by power mongers, control freaks and someone with the capacity to entertain and sway audiences? I have yet to hear "pure" unadulterated reasonable analysis concerning the existence of a god.

Bottom line is there are people who *need* to believe in something/anything to pacify their insecurities and fears and there are people who who don't. Each to his own I say. Neither side will convince the other.

 

Re: is there or isn't there...

Lots of rabid thoughts in this continuing thread. Lots of "theories" which by the way, was written by ordinary, opinionated, less advanced humans (considering that they cant even find a cure for aids).. professing to know the truth about everything according to "them".

The funny part about this is that some of you foam at the mouth in defending these "so-called profound truths" which have NEVER been authenticated to be fact, but are only some local gossip heresay passed down through generations of villagers etc. This became the so-called "HISTORY".

Do you realize how many times a piece of info gets embellished? Especially by power mongers, control freaks and someone with the capacity to entertain and sway audiences? I have yet to hear "pure" unadulterated reasonable analysis concerning the PROOF THAT NATURE IS "CHANCE".

Bottom line is there are people who *need* to believe in something/anything to pacify their insecurities and fears and there are people who who don't, thats why atheist come out with "quantum ghostly physics", nature appears by "super duper luck", and everything I havent touched, seen, and felt is a myth, therfore King Henry and Shakespeare is a myth. Each to his own I say. Neither side will convince the other, because one is evil, and the other is good, one is stupid, one is faithfull.

 

And this is the truth, I couldn't agree more!

 

Views

Do you have any evidence to support that notion? It is your opinion isn't it?

And I disagree with your statement that the more we know the less we need to invent gods to explain the world. I say the more we know; the more we realise we need to find out, the more we realise the intricacies of this universe, and the more we are disposed to the existence of an organising source behind it all.

Fred Hoyle - Physiciist - "A common-sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature."

Carl Sagan - Spoke of "some kind of force or power" which initiated the universe.

 

Jan,

That’s a foolish idea. My very first post here 3 years ago specifically showed why I felt that idea was wrong.

Theists are of course, in their imagination. There is nothing to show they exist in reality. The idea of gods was created to provide explanations of things that at the time could not be explained. We now have science that helps us explain things. We no longer need to create imaginary super beings.

I do understand very well – I am arguing against the imaginative fantasies of theists.

Sorry I forgot, you don’t understand science yet do you?

Logic is independent and objective. Try it sometime; it’ll help you understand where you are going wrong.

 

Logic?

My point about the dimensions was that what seems 'illogical' to us in these 4 might - in fact will - seem 'logical' from another perspective - be it 6 or 10 or 1,000,000 - and I use logic here like the athesists here use it. For example; 'Since God created the universe and he knows what will happen then we have no free wil and so he can't exist' - I have to state how naive I think it sounds and looks and makes the people who say it look. If you are to argue like that then you should argue that if I pack 10 spheres in a space in my 4 dimensions then there is no way I can pack 15 spheres in that same space in 5 dimensions. And as math and logic would have it, we can!

Stuff you consider impossible from your perspective can be possible from another perspective. It is narrow minded to try to refute God's existence by arguing from what you can see - God exists above what you can see. It is even better [and a WHOOOOLLE LOT SMARTER] to take an agnostic stance - not that I support it.

And again I say as we come to know more about the universe the more we realise we do not know about the universe. There are many gaps to be filled - no matter how small we THINK they are with our puny knowledge the point remains there are gaps - and they are VERY difficult to fill. Scientists always have the notion that they are on the verge of discovering it all - example - Atoms are the smallest building blocks of matter - then ooops! - here appears protons neutrons and electrons - wait! - quarks - hold on! - neutrinos. Get my point? You may think that there are just tiny gaps to be filled - but history suggests otherwise.

 

Logic???

Your logic, Chris, is dependent on the 4 dimensions which accepted scientific theories state you exist. When man - you included of course - can use higher dimensional math or something like that to illustrate the non-existence of God then your argument about predestination will make sense.Otherwise choose another perspective.