Proof UFOs are Not for Idiots

BatM,

Has anyone on this planet, since 1947, been proved to own the vehicles that General Twining described? That should be proof enough that the vehicles are not from any science on this planet. We still can't produce any vehicles that can duplicate the maneuvers that General Twining described, and that was 55 year ago. Science does not require absolute proof that something exists. It requires a theory based on observation.

 

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Extraordinary proof

You presented Twinings memo as proof of the government's belief in UFOs (after ted_roe's message, I now realize that that doesn't mean "alien" UFOs). I merely pointed out that even that memo itself does not claim the UFOs (or "Flying Discs") are of alien origin and, since the memo is 50 years old, may no longer represent current government belief.

With respect to vehicles capable of doing what is described:

• How much do we know about "Aurora" (and other secret projects -- past and present)?
• How often have credible witnesses of UFOs been fooled by natural phenomena (ball lightning, stars/planets, reflections, etc.)?
• How often have natural processes fooled human machines (magnetic phenomena, solar flares, temperature inversions, etc.)?

Scientists take these issues as possible faults in their theory, attempt to develop tests to eliminate the issues, and evaluate the results. Scientists know that nothing is 100% proven, but they also recognize that extraordinary claims (ie. "we are being visited by aliens" or "I have invented a perpetual motion machine") require extraordinary proof.

 

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Twining Memo

Hi John and BatM,
If you are curious take a look at our technical report 4. www.narcap.org/REPORTS/TECHREPORTS.htm it is a large doc and requires a few minutes to download.

In it are 1400 aviation based observations and incidents involving UAP dating from 1916 to 2000. Many of them are US military reports and many predate 1947. This represents less than half of our aviation case catalogue and doesn't include many aviation cases that have come to us recently - 300 from Mexico alone.

If you review this doc for commonalties you will see that the reports of discs, cylinders, spheres and other solid objects have been consistently reported throughout. The increase in numbers of reports began in the late 30s and is consistent with US and international military expansion and real-time communications as well as the availability of portable cameras, etc.... When the global reports started coming back to one head quarters, the problem became an intelligence issue.

By the way, the US Air Force was founded in Sept. 1947, and the Twining Memo is dated Sept. 1947 (Oct?). Clearly any issue that could hold its own priority against the Communist expansion in Europe must have been legitimate and of serious interest. Isn't it interesting that the US Air Force was founded less than three months from the alleged Roswell crash? (recall that prior to the USAF each service had its own air corp). I have no idea whether Roswell happened or not, I have my suspicions. Just some interesting points.
Ted

 

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Thanks for posting NARCAP's website, Ted. The dissemination of such knowledge is a service to mankind. For too long governments have embraced secrecy and that has been detrimental to our societal and scientific development. The fastest and best way for us to develop, morally and technically, is as a unified world society. You never know who it is who can put together disparate bits of information and come up with solutions.

 

*This Link* might interest some of you, however, I do not support the Roswell case, as I simply do not know whether it is true. Too much conspiracy in this I guess. I have doubts about what happened there.

Probably, something happened there, if it really was what people claim it was, that I doubt seriously...

 

Banshee

"Isn't it interesting that the US Air Force was founded less than three months from the alleged Roswell crash? (recall that prior to the USAF each service had its own air corp). I have no idea whether Roswell happened or not, I have my suspicions. Just some interesting points." ----

This was a simple comment on my part, my website has nothing to say about Roswell, nor does NARCAP. Of course you would know that if you looked at it.....I was simply commenting on some aspects of history that are interesting.
Ted

 

ted_roe, I was referring to the link I posted, in which Roswell is mentioned. Nothing to do with you...

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A closed mind can neither prove or disprove a single thing.

 

Most of the debunkers on this site and others use reductionist thinking. If you have a report let's say of a flying disk. The person reports it in a part of the sky where Venus is. The person describes it as moving, hovering, and flying away. The scientist who uses voodo science will claim the person viewed Venus because it was in that part of the sky. Well ,how about the other part? Well the person was mistaken. Couldn't he have been mistaken about what part of the sky he say it. In other words if you believe the first part believe it all then try and explain it.

That is the main reason this will never go away. As much as scientist and debunkers think all of us are just plain stupid most of us know a planet when we see one. When there is a mistake believe it or not the good UFO researchers are very detailed orented and leave out the nonsense reports. They will also challenge reports and try and find other explanations. They just won't be accept the scientist debunkers voodo science like the rest of the mainstream.
rif

 

Here here!! *raises glass to Rif*

 

It's Magic

Have you ever been to a magic show? Did you believe everything you saw? Did you see anything you were not supposed to see?

Obviously, the magician was doing something to make sure you saw what he wanted you to see and did not see what he did not want you to see (it's called misdirection). The human mind will naturally misdirect itself when it doesn't get all the information it needs (it fills in the blanks).

Unless there is good proof to the contrary, good scientists don't say that you didn't see what you thought you saw. They simply say, for many possible reasons, that it is not likely! They apply the lesson of the magic show and ask for better proof.

 

If that is true, BatM, then LOTS of scientists aren't good scientists.

 

Somehow, I knew you'd say that. Of course, there are a lot of scientists whose ego will not let them explore these issues. There are also a lot of "witnesses" who will not look behind the curtain to see that they were wrong.

However, was what I said wrong? Shouldn't good scientists question something that doesn't make sense under current scientific understanding?

Shouldn't you? :bugeye:

 

Questioning is excellent science. Debuking is not. Why? Let's be honest our modern science is not that old. Many of the tenents of astronomy and physics are being tested right now. My major problem with the scientist of today is there caught up in what went right in science as if there is nothing wrong. As if tomorrow or the next year we couldn't find large mistakes in our theroies of the Universe.
Has UFO's been seen and do they reflect off radar. The answer is yes. Do UFO's exhibit technology we don't seem to have. The answer is Yes! Do UFO leave traces. The answer is Yes. The best cases prove this. The cases in which Project Bluebook and The Condon Report could not explain were the most documented cases. The French scientific study came to the conclussion they could be not of this planet. If all this is wrong then a good well funded study would prove it once and for all.

But let me tell you something. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you go on record as many debunkers have and say nothing has ever been proven and then you don't mention that not one well funded study has been conduted and, Bluebook and Condon, just can't qualify for well funded and well research studies then you are full of crap and your argument is rediculus. Could you imagine were we would be if we had decided Rockets couldn't fly and then put no money toward the research how many scientist would be saying "Rockets can't fly in space, by now we would have built one."

Rif

 

Just a note to all those who claim scientist would be interested UFO if there was any evidence. This is from a panel of scientist at George Washington University:

Bernard Haisch of the CA Institute for Physics and Astrophysics, thinks scientists don't study UFOs out of fear of ridicule and retaliation and says, "Scientists are more closed-minded on the subject of UFOs than the general public…Many scientists may still be reacting to the Church's cruelty toward scientists back in the 16th century."
City University of NY physicist Michio Kaku says, “Aliens may be here now, in another dimension, a millimeter away from our own." He thinks the universe has 11 dimensions, of which we’ve identified only four. He also thinks visitors would use nanotechnology to visit Earth. "We're always looking for space ships," he says, "But what if they are using nanoprobes to explore Earth instead?"

Kaku wants to reexamine astrophysicist Jacques Valle’s samples of UFO fragments for microscopic structures that might have overlooked. He also thinks physicians should be allowed to examine alien abductees for traces of alien DNA. "If we could find a piece of nanotechnology or alien DNA, we would nail this to the wall,” he says. “There would no longer be a debate." The irony of this statement is that Dr. Roger Leir, who will be on Dreamland’s final radio broadcast on December 28, has already removed several of these implants from people.

So why isn’t mainstream science aware of Dr. Leir’s work? Stanford University physicist Peter Sturrock says, “Scientists are not being encouraged, supported or funded in their UFO research." He thinks UFOlogists would get greater respect if they were allowed to publish in peer-reviewed academic

 

Gorge Washington University Symposium

If you have any questions about this event, I was in it. I presented right after Dr. Vallee.

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That's very difficult to do. Look at the efforts that have been put into finding the Loch Ness monster and yet nothing conclusive has been found. Still there are people out there waiting...

Project Blue Book was a well funded study and yet it could not conclude that there are or are not extraterrestials visiting us.

There are many people looking into the issue of UFOs. As the data becomes more substantial, there will be more people (including scientists) looking into it.

I wonder what Bryant Gumbel will have to say on the SciFi channel about the new evidence on Roswell...?

 

UFOs do exist, but not extraterrestrial (why??)

I saw a UFO in the country at night, in 1996. My cousin, a mensa member, with two witnesses, saw three at one time, in late afternoon. Both in NY. Why, do people assume its got to be from off earth? Obviously, to me anyway, is its some type of hovercraft with the purpose of flying to elude radar very low, and has the qualities of stopping dead in its trackes, moving in any direction quite fast, up down and sideways. I think the stigma attached to speaking up if you see one, is directed at national security to keep this item a secret.
Make sense to anyone?
I called one of those silly telephone numbers on "unexplained mysteries" show or some such crap. What I got was, someone wanting only to know if i saw one THAT EVENING. When I said it was over a year ago, they put me on hold and disconnected me. When I called the number again, they answered Acme Truck. Cute. Its some army number or related that only wants to know of an active spotting to figure out WHOs it is.
My cousin, the MENSA-ite, told his inlaw a retired nave admiral. He was not the least ruffled or interested. As if it was not something new.
Denying something thats been seen by hundreds if not more, is irrational. Thinking its from off-earth, IS.

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I saw two flying disk in daytime over a beach in 1963. They were close and there were two of them one behind the other. They were saucer shaped and copper in color. My friend saw them first and pointed them out to me. They passed over our heads and went out over the ocean they the excellerated along the cost at unbeleiveable speed. There was no noise. I have never seen anything like that and believe they weren't made here. If our government had something like that in 1963 and keeps it secret than that is a bigger story then aliens.

rif

 

There are occasions were some really interesting evidence has been produced regarding UFO some that strongly indicate they are not from here. I ask all of those interested to go to this site and read Bruce Maccabee report on what happened when scientist got involved with investagation and had some money.
By the way this was in 1950.

http://brumac.8k.com/WhiteSandsProof/WhiteSandsProof.html