Confederate Flag Ban at School

Discussion in 'History' started by Orleander, Aug 14, 2008.

  1. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    Don't forget to mention that the CSA had the nerve to actually let their blacks serve in the military, instead of creating some bullshit black military like the USA had.
     
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  3. Kadark Banned Banned

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    I had a long discussion with somebody about this topic about one year ago. I came into the discussion believing the flag was a direct symbol of racism and hatred, but I soon realized that I was wrong. The flag, I was told, represents the simple and serene lifestyle associated with the south: basking in the nice outdoors, sitting on the porch with sweet tea, enjoying the sense of community with friendly neighbours at the local race track or restaurant, etc. It represents the easy going southern lifestyle, the sense of a strong, caring community, and the traditions regularly ascribed to the south. The confederate flag gets a bum rap for being active during the days of slavery, and because in more recent times, Ku Klux Klan members have used it.

    Ultimately, it all boils down to why you want the flag to represent you, and the type of symbolism you see in it.


    Kadark
     
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  5. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    This is a confused argument. I was responding to Oilmastery's idea that the Confederate flag was symbol against totalitarianism. My point was that the Confederacy was a totalitarian society for most blacks. The fact that some blacks owned slaves is neither here nor there. If I say slavery is a white person's evil, feel free to bring in this idea.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2008
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  7. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    This part is who you are, since you do not think your arguments are strong enough without it.
     
  8. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Indeed, black Southerners who served the Confederacy have been out of favor with historians, social scientists and other scholars for 150 years. Yet when the Army of Northern Virginia marched into Pennsylvania in 1863, or the Army of Tennessee retreated to Atlanta in 1864, they were not all-white armies, as we have come to imagine them. Instead, thousands of black Southerners marched with them, as servants, nurses, surgeons, assistants, laborers, drivers and even a few in combat roles. Thousands now lie beneath Southern soil in unmarked graves, with no marker for their final resting sites and no Confederate flags to fly above their headstones on Confederate Memorial Day. Why have their experiences been forgotten ? Perhaps one small reason is that during the post-war era the Federal government refused to furnish grave markers for black Confederates. The Federal government would only furnish grave markers for Union, Confederate and black Union soldiers.
     
  9. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    I actually knew that blacks served for the Confederacy. But that seems beside the point to me. The flag did indeed in part represent a resistance to the end of slavery on the part of many Southerners. It also represented other things. I do not think it is a simple symbol, nor do I think the North had the motives we tend to associate with the North, and so on. But the fact is it is an easy symbol to shove racism in the face of people while saying it is really something else. Some of course are honest about the fact that they are racist and use it this way. And some hate racism but like the flag for cultural reasons or political reasons not having to do with slavery.

    The loss seems minor to me however. I don't think I would make it illegal to fly the thing. On the other hand I think telling people it would be better to come up with another symbol seems like a good moral stand.
     
  10. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    This seems like a Group A was bad so don't pick on Group B. This all seems beside the point of the thread, though it is interesting and worthy of a thread of its own.
     
  11. lepustimidus Banned Banned

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    More like: Group A were also racist bastards, so why do you only want to ban the flag of the racist Group B? It could be argued that in some ways, the South treated blacks with more dignity than the North.

    And yes, I know that you're not against banning the Confederate Flag, but apparently quite a few posters in this thread are.
     
  12. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    How typical, unable to form any sort of argument, thus you attack the person.

    Wouldn't expect anything but ad hominems from individuals such as yourself who have already been proven wrong.
     
  13. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    And most of the racism come from those who would tear down the Battle Flag.

    I lived in the South for half of my life, my friend included Black, Mexican, Indians, they all had ancestors who served in the Southern Forces, all of them were proud of their Confederate Ancestors, and they had a extreme distaste for Yankee's who came down South to stick their noses into Southern Affaires.

    It was revealing to me, as the recognition of the fact that there were Loyal Blacks, both slave and free who served the Confederacy, and as that became known beyond the People who were their ancestors, the surge in Pride among the Blacks that I knew.

    A valuable lost part of History, that places a new light as to the reasons and rational, for the Civil War.
     
  14. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    No, not even close, Honor the Good thing that both Flags represented, Loyalty, Honor, Duty, Country, that is what counts among military people,

    Yes both North and South were slave holders, the North as a matter of fact treated Free Blacks, worse, then the South treated slaves, but we don't tear down the Battle Flags and Pennants of the North, neither should we tear down the Battle Flags of the South, both side had their Honor and Shame, and as soldiers they served their cause, Loyalty, Honor, Duty, Country, that is the creed and code of the Soldier, White, Black, Free, Slave, All men of Distinction.
     
  15. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm. Me engage in arguments all over sciforums. Hmm. Me not continue to argue with the guy who called Me a twat. Hmm. The guy who calls me a twat takes a noble stand against the ad hominum. You're interesting, I'll give you that, but you go on ignore, Mr. Sprout.
     
  16. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member

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    Poor baby cannot back up its claims of the flag being about defending slavery, and just runs away.
     
  17. Simon Anders Valued Senior Member

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    No, the slave trade killed enormous numbers just in the passage to the plantations, let alone treatment afterward, which, yes, varied, but together with the transport was much worse than the treatment of Free Slaves in the South or the North.

    As far as the military and honor interpretation of the C. flag, I do think this is valid and as I have said I do not think this is a simple issue or that the flag represents one thing. However overall I think it is better to let the thing be lowered and not used because of what it did represent to many of those who held it.

    We will likely not disagree on this point.

    But I don't think you're saying the flag is only _____________ is any more justified than those who see the flag as only representing support for slavery or more recently racism.
     
  18. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    The import of slave was banned in January 1801 so what does the transport of Slaves have to do with this controversy?


    What am I say the Flag is only___________?

    The Flag is what it is, a Military Symbol, and it is the interlopers the professional bellyachers, that make the controversy, those that deny Historical Fact because it is politically incorrect, and doesn't match their bigotry.
     
  19. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Precisely correct. It is people's attitudes with the symbols that is the problem, not the symbols themselves. One person likes the confederate flag as a symbol of Southern Civilization (almost) lost, another likes it so they can show their "white pride". Conversely some, (well educated) northern or whatever Americans don't care either way about it, knowing the history involved in depth. Others always see it as a symbol of slavery and something to always pin on the southern states.

    I have talked with Hindu-Canadians and they frankly think it's funny that the Swastika is looked upon with such madness. At least the correct, non-bent, "straight" stika...

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    It's all about perspective. If you do not allow someone to voice their perspective, particularly in a "free" society, it will eventually come at you in an even "WORSE" manner.
     
  20. desi Valued Senior Member

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    None of the people waving that flag today own slaves. Lets face it.

    If you really want to speak out against slavery look to Africa and the middle east where some countries actually still practice slavery instead of bashing the dead symbol of a dead country. "The South" died when the war was lost.

    Its like people who shave their heads and get swastika tattoos. These people identify themselves with a lost cause. They're morons. They make the swastika look bad by their asinine behavior.
     
  21. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    Don't roll your eyes at me. What I meant was that for me there are similarities between the two. The flag that the Nazis flew stands for much more than simply killing the Jewish people, but when people see one they think genocide. When I see the Confederate flag I see slavery and the dark days of the antebellum South. I know that the Confederate flag stands for much more than that. In fact slavery isn't even what it stands for at all. Thats just how I feel when I see it. Its a personal thing. That for the most part I have to work on, so that I don't automatically prejudge people. I don't think it should be banned though, I actually think it should be protected its a form of free speech and supporting one's opinions. I wouldn't mind if someone wanted to wear a shirt supporting the KKK. I definitely support that.
     
  22. tim840 Registered Senior Member

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    Thats exactly what I dont get - why are people proud that their relatives fought in the Civil War? Whether or not they were proslavery or antislavery, black or white, they were fighting, in general, for the continued existence of slavery. At the same time, they were fighting to break apart their own country, the United States of America. Dont those people realize that if their relatives had won, their lives would be completely different, that the US wouldnt even exist as it is now, that slavery wouldl have continued on for a long while?
     
  23. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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