Essay: "A Christian Speaks of Wicca and Witchcraft"

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cupric, Nov 19, 2002.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Some thoughts for evangelists, inspired by TruthSeeker

    Actually, the tragedy of Matthew 25 is that one evangelizes in order to escape their own hell. During the Inquisition, the burning and torture wasn't really "punishment". It was an effort to get the sinner to confess to their own sins so that God might forgive them. Failure to right the wrong, of course, is covered in Matthew 25:
    • Matthew 25.34-46, RSV

    What is generally not considered are the vagaries of Christianity so useful to the evangelist at other times. Are you not creating cruelty, for instance, in persecuting homosexuality or paganism? Does one not cause cruelty if they deny a person employment and increase their suffering? In Sufism, the only way to see Khidr, the Green One, the beneficent and giving spirt of God, one must first increase one's necessity. We may not be discussing Sufism, but if Christ was around in the 1980s in the US, he never got out of The Castro, because that's probably where he was needed the most. To convert the gays? No, to give them compassion and comfort in one of the darkest hours of humanity when, abandoned by the political establishment, vilified by the public, homosexuals were left to die in a plague. Or perhaps worldwide? Christ would still be in Africa. Why? Because that is where the necessity is the greatest.

    Take it from the overlord-eye perspective: In a place like the US, does it befit the Christian vision to undermine the very devices that allow it to exist in these forms in order to "convert" the target of one's prejudice?

    I think that's largely what the letter speaks to. If people are good enough people, one should leave them to their devices, for God will either speak to them or not. They will answer God on the Day of Judgment, and in the meantime all one gains in persecution through conversion is hostility. God sees the seeds of division cast about by His flock, and if the infidels do not convert, it is as God should Will it.

    A side digression, just to see if people can follow it:

    • In the wake of the Nigerian "Miss World riots", FOX News hosted two guests, one from a Washington, DC-area Muslim academy, and another a bishop of the Church of God in Christ, from Africa. Why, oh, why did the good bishop turn the event into a spin opportunity? Why did he choose to evangelize to Americans? Why, when asked the Christian opinion of the pageant and the editorial alleged to start the violence did he choose to whine about "They (the Muslims) don't own the country. They're only fifty per cent!"

    It's not dignified.

    Point being: Watching this man of God in action does not inspire anyone to come to God. His behavior undermines the Christian message he alleges, and leaves him seeming dishonest. Would it not be better to let his integrity and forthrightness stand as the representative of his faith? Or must it be petty politics?

    Christian evangelism is oft-regarded as nasty and presumptuous because of the appearance of the assumption of supremacy. Wherever Christians go, their "message of hope" is betrayed by a simple notion: You are not good enough. Your life is wrong. You are inherently bad and in need of salvation.

    So what people get to know about Christianity from the evangelism is that it is supremacist. What people hear of it is divisive and prohibitionist. Christian evangelists generally demand the sacrifice of life customs without giving a good reason. "Because you're a horrible person who needs redemption," just doesn't cut it, especially in the modern era where the targets are generally smarter than the evangelists.

    There was a time when such psychological balbutive was both necessary and effective, but as Christianity became more and more prevalent, it disrupted the intellectual curve; left out in the rain when Christianity became the majority were the extremes of the curve: both the smart and the not-smart. Perhaps the emotional blackmail works on the destitute, but they have nothing left to lose. For many people, myself included, among the things I would have to give up in order to be Christian is my compassion.

    How the situation came to be that way is kind of ridiculous, but also entirely the fault of the Christians I've known and experienced throughout my life. I consider evangelism an exercise in idiocy, supremacy, or cowardice, generally, and depending on the form. There is very little substantive evangelism going on today because the nature of Biblical faith is such that very little new thought has come about over the last two millennia. In other words, the infidels have heard it all before, and the spiel is becoming less and less effective.

    Perhaps the cajoling, the threatening, and the intrusive evangelism works on the intellectually destitute. Christianity has much to offer someone who has nothing to give to the world. But for those who do, Christianity often interferes with their ability to give it.

    Those who ask? Evangelize away. But those who don't ... well, the Witches don't go casting spells on Christians without permission; I think they'd appreciate the same courtesy in return.

    Besides, given the brand of condemning "evangelism" people like Falwell, Jack Chick, Lon Mabon, Carman, and others ....

    When I fought with Christians at this site about such issues, I used to write, Clean out your own house first.

    When an evangelist creates resentment by his or her behavior, how does that serve God? When the target retreats further from Christ's invitation, how does that serve God?

    Take a look at some of the awful, aggressive evangelism going on: is this really God's way? Christians at Sciforums and in the American culture as well have charged that atheism leads to moral decay. What of Christianity? After all, when someone like Carman decides that his sense of ridicule is conveniently the "chosen" method of evangelism, when Mabon decides that his personal bigotries are exactly what God wants him to attack, when Falwell blames the voiceless for what they said--how does any of it really go to serve God? And what are the people watching supposed to think?

    When someone sees a good dancer, it makes them want to dance. When someone hears a good guitarist, it makes them want to play. When someone strong and beautiful faith, it draws them closer to faith.

    It just bugs people when condemning evangelists talk about the necessity of "forgiving". Especially when forgiveness is so absent in the Christian representation.

    In the end, it is not that the faithful has ministered to the infidel. It is not that the faithful has seen the sick in prison and brought them comfort and health. In the end, it is that the faithful bring the sickness, and call it health. It is that the faithful bring the shackles, and call them freedom.

    The evangelists need to put their money where their mouth is. They can help bring about a godly world or simply go off and wait for God. The aggressive evangelism, though, needs to go.

    Matthew 25--does one do unto another, or fail to do? But what is that doing?

    What do you do to or for the least of His brethren?

    Two parts from Matthew 5, included today especially for evangelists:
    • All RSV citations from University of Michigan Humanities Text Initiative

    Are the evangelists truly willing to answer God on these grounds?

    Jesus weeps.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  3. pumpkinsaren'torange Registered Senior Member

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    Nehushta:


    silly, silly girl...i have never once stated that i was better than you; show me where i've said that. that must be your own insecurities bleeding through. you must perceive yourself as rather inferior to me if you feel that i am causing you to feel so insecure and persecuted. think about it.

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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    There is a passage in the Bible that says that those that will do good for their own sake will not be recognized by God neither Jesus. Unfortunatly I don't know where it is... But I'll try to find out...
     
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  7. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    I found it! It was easiar than I though...

    Here it is:

    Matthew 7:21-23
    "21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
    22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
    23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "

    That's a really good scripture that never departs from me.

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    What it is actually saying is that if you do good for your own sake you won't be doing it in your heart, with true intent (will is another good word here), and for this reason, God will not dwell in this person and this person won't be recognized by Him.

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    This also means that what is important is not the action but with what intent you do the action. That's why Love is so important. If you do good for someone because you Love this person, you are doing it with good intention. If you do it just because you want others to think you are good, or for God to "accept" you in heaven, then your "love" is selfish, it's not the True Love of God.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2002
  8. Nehushta Registered Senior Member

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    305
    "Lawlessness" defined

    It sounds to me like we have a new definition of "lawlessness". Can we add proselytizing to that list?

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  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    TruthSeeker

    Thank you for the insight.
    I wanted to mention that the True Love of God should never come into it. It shouldn't matter either way.

    Bear in mind that since Machiavelli at least there has existed an awareness that what we do for others has some benefit for ourselves.

    It's merely a matter of focus from there.

    I mean, it strikes my conscience when someone in my immediate presence is in need. Even if I offer my assistance merely to make my head stop screaming at me, I'm still seeking a benefit.

    But in the end, we see what happens when we make other things the focus. Such as Michael Moore documents in Bowling for Columbine. How did a 6 year-old come to shoot a 6 year-old? More fascinating are the issues surrounding access to the gun. He got the gun from his uncle. How? Apparently he found it. Interesting, though, why he was at his uncle's in the first place. His mother, a recipient of the welfare-to-work "benefits" worked eighty hours a week at two jobs forty-five minutes away by charter bus and still could not meet her rent. He was living with his uncle because his mother was not there to supervise him. She was working. Two jobs. And still unable to make rent.

    Sometimes you've just gotta throw people a bone. Sometimes giving a man a fish is the right thing to do. Because he may not live through the lesson about how to catch fish if he's starving.

    The tragedy? Welfare-to-work is the product of the idea that a person's worth is measured in their financially-documentable labor. Instead of focusing on "welfare", people sought to trim their financial commitment to social wellbeing.

    Raising children is supposed to be the most important focus of a parent's life. I've read the Irish Constitution before; it's in there. Doesn't seem so hard when you stop and think about it.

    But in the end, if you don't worry about God, if you don't worry about what people do and don't "deserve" according to a ledger book, if you simply do the right thing because it's right ...

    Plant the seeds, and the garden will grow.

    You won't know the True Love of God because you won't be stopping to analyze it. Nurturing it, growing it, and sharing it will naturally be the focus. What one calls it tells much about their priorities and motivations.

    The idea that kindness to others benefits your own self is unavoidable. It's all a matter of what you do with it.

    If I want to live in Paradise, sure that might be greedy.

    But if I want everyone to live in Paradise ... well, isn't that the point?

    Utopia is only a pipe dream because nobody's figured it out.

    We're the human species. We make artificial hearts, we send people to the moon ... strangely, we can't figure out how to be happy.

    It's a matter of priorities.

    A heart at ease with itself will tend to the needs of God.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  10. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    The True Love of God is a natural consequence of altruism, lovingkindness and righteousness (and believe me... it's NOT easy to be righteous...).

    That's certainly true! But the rules of our society many times (if not most of times) make this difficult. Our culture is very bad and influencial to adults and children. We are slaves of money. We have to worry about money to feed our children, and most of the time we forget that our goal is to feed our children and not to get money. When the means become the goal... trouble!

    Our culture is so fixated in getting money and aquiring luxuries that we forget that the true way for happiness is not material, but rather centered in the well being of our relationship with others. It's all about relationship. We have relationship even with objects. Now, I'm having a "relationship" with my computer. As I right, I write in a way usually based in past and present experiences. If my past or my present is bad, I may punch the computer. If they are good, I may act "normally". But the truth is that we are allways having a relationship with everything around us.

    Oops... I got a little off topic...

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    The True Love of God cannot be analyzed by the rational mind. It goes way beyond that. Yes, using it is the right way to understand It...

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    Yes, it is...

    If Love is not the answer (what I doubt), then It is at least the right way to go...

    I'm not sure what that means...
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    (Insert Title Here)

    But labeling it as such leads directly to a necessary acknowledgment which plays into what we were just discussing--the benefits one receives from their own goodness. There is a neutral sense of God that leaves the notion without consequence, but that God neither loves nor cares.
    And yet we wonder why there is crime, poverty, sickness, division 'twixt peoples. Amazing, isn't it?
    If it's where the day takes you ... but I do follow.
    If you polish the mirror enough and correctly, eventually the face of God will be staring back at you. It's a bit of a Sufi illustration, but the point is that if your heart is truly in the right place, things will work out right. Being human should be a joyous adventure, but it's not because people aren't focused rightly. As we've noted, the raising of children should be the utmost focus of any parent; it should be constant. But we humans do not recognize in daily life that we are a species, and what value there is in the rearing of the next generation of the species. Consequently, this process is sacrificed. It sounds utterly idealistic, I know, but consider it the other way around. Many people assert that my ideas about parenting run a danger of warping my child. It's merely their fears, for none can recall ever seeing the outcome of the ideas in practice. But one of the big things people always tell me is that I will be somehow alienating the child from her peers. Now, just for kicks and giggles: What use is there in teaching my daughter to conform to processes which lower her efficiency, intellectual capacity, and even her survival skills merely to make her feel like part of the herd?

    I don't expect my child to "get along" with other children. I expect her to tolerate them. Of course, there's always chance that she'll be born stupid and being part of the herd will be something to aspire to. Reality will tell me what's going on in the end, but it seems to me that if I'm going to do this, I might as well try to do it right.

    So if I don't scare myself, if I always bear in mind the important things, and if I operate with compassion and never let sentiment cloud my perception of right and wrong--in other words, if I shed the normal concerns of the world through some manner of functional reconciliation, if my worries are few and my heart unfettered, I don't think I can fail. By some standards I should see the random tragedy coming. Who knows? I might even pull that off.

    If I am truly, truly at ease, my actions will suffice.

    Likewise with life in general. There are important things and there are not-so-important things. We don't always know which is which. Figuring that out, understanding life, and playing the real game instead of the superficial version ... If a person does not bog their conscience with the petty concerns of the worldly, about the only thing left to do is live simply and compassionately.

    I prefer Hillel's version of the Golden Rule: Do not do unto others as you would not have done unto you. (It would have helped a lot in the 1980s.) But it's quite the simple idea, and seems almost inherent regardless of its ties to a religious idea.

    And when you remember why you're doing what you're doing--"Because you are human and alive!"--things will naturally fall into order.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  12. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    God does love and care. There is no "sense" of God. God is a living being. He is just in a different position on the scale of "human" evolution. He created us in His image, which means that someday we will be like Him (at least the ones who know He exist and Trust Him...). "Labeling" in this sense is not good just because most people have wrong notions about God. Someone that knows God well enough to understand Him will NEVER do something for his/her own goodness. What is important is not the WORD you use, but the MEANING behind it. Even God has many names. Some calls Him Jeohvah, which is a mistranslation from the Hebrew (it's a long story and I surely can tell it if you want...), others call Him Yahweh, which is almost certainly wrong too... but whatever... talk about that if you want.

    Yep

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    . And I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one that see that.

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    Sufi illustration! It's written in the Bible!!! Look!:

    1 Corinthians 13:12
    "12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. "

    I though the Sufism was derived from the Qu'ram! I though it was Muslim, Islam, whatever... I actually know it is... but that's an interesting parallel...!

    Do you know what I find most desgusting in teenager's behavior nowdays? Their defenition of "cool" is being retard and arrogant. It's really annoying sometimes. Guys usually talk and act as retards, and girls are usually arrogant. It makes me sad. They call it "cool". I learnt to Love them anyways... even as they act like that...

    Well... I'll certainly expect my children to Love others. I'll certainly teach them Love since the first day...

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    . My heart actually jumps joyfully as I imagine and write about it...

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    .

    Anyone born stupid. Even people with genetic "imperfections" are not stupid. Since I heard about that syndrome that gives you one more gene (I think number 23 or something like that... I learnt long time ago anyways...), Iallways though that one gene might give something really good, like imunity to a/some illnesses or a special ability to complete some kind of task. An "imperfection" is not an imperfection, it is just a different. Anyone is perfect, we are just different from each other, that's all. If we didn't have specialized cells in our bodies we would never be able to be alive. I see that you don't know what Love really means yet, but I tell you that It is beyond tolerance, and it has to do with fully accepting people as they are and thanking them for being different, so that they may make a difference in other's life.

    I would even say that the intentions would already suffice...

    Yep. It is written here:

    1 John 2:15
    "15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. "

    What God actually wants is that we may focus on Him (for He is Love) instead of the world, so that we may be not blinded by the thing which we see, but instead, see beyond what our senses can perceive. That's the "real game". See what is beyond the world, go deeper.

    Looking to life is similar to looking to water. If your soul (mind+emotions+will) is full of things of the world, you won't be able to see what is behind it. It is like looking to a dirty water, you can't see the bottom. If your soul is completly clear, it will be like seeing through clean water, you will be able to see the bottom.

    The reason why people get all confused about life is because they look to the actions and reactions, and the causes of them, instead of looking to the intentions behind them. That's why judgement is so wrong and bad, because it's based on analysing the actions instead of the intentions behind the actions. That's what the Love of God do, it cleans your soul and make you able to see the intentions - which is the Spiritual Realm - instead of the actions - which are the Physical Realm

    I believe that is A LOT of information in one post. If you are lost about something or want me to explain again and more carefully, please ask me. I will Love to go deeper on those things.

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    PS: Do you have a child?

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  13. Cupric What's a wookie? Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry for the absence, life got in the way of posting.

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    Truth - what is the difference between
    and
    that would make you say the first is untrue?

    I didn't pull the quotes myself (as you eventually figured out), but it looks to me like one is probably from the "new" bible and one from the old KJV. Is it really that different? Is the core message so dissimilar?
    Excellent advice, indeed.

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    Another quote of yours, Truth:
    That's EXACTLY what this article addresses. Have you thought about what it says? Do you agree or disagree? Did it change your mind at all? That's what I was hoping to talk about with this thread.

    And yet one more, again from you, Truth:
    Islam is derived from Christianity, which is derived from Judaism. Same God, different prophets.
     
  14. CounslerCoffee Registered Senior Member

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    4,997
    Ive read through most of this thread but Im just going to comment on the article at hand.

    Atheist will not go to heaven. I think that if the atheist is a good person and didnt do anything wrong that that person would end up in purgatory. Once the atheist arrives in purgatory he/she is going to say "Boy was I wrong. God does exist. I am loved...blah blah blah blah." Once the atheist realises this he/she will find themselves in heaven.

    the atheist will go to hell, I dont think hell is a torture chambe either. Its probably just very very boring.

    To Tiassa,

    Your kid is going to be smart.
     
  15. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    Cupric,

    Yes... but have you read it in context? Here is the context (in bold...)

    Matthew 25:40
    "40 The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "

    Do you realize that the whole thing in bold is not written in the Bible? That's what I was talking about.

    Of course killing them is wrong, for it's said in the Bible "Do not kill" and "Love your enemies". Killing them is completly wrong.

    It didn't change my mind. Every Christian shoul speak out and allways in Love. We, as Christians, should (...must...) allways walk in Love. Unfortunatly, a lot of Christians don't understand this very well...

    Yeah... I know...


    CounslerCoffee,

    There is no "purgatory" (it is not written in the Bible)...
     
  16. Maia Crimson Spirit Registered Senior Member

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    Purgatorio? Written by Dante. A mindless gaybasher and religious idiot. He was decidedly messed up.
     
  17. CounslerCoffee Registered Senior Member

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    4,997
    Maia and TruthSeeker,

    It was just an idea. It took about 20 seconds for me to come up with that whacked out theory, so dont take it to seriously.

    And that is how things like the Crusades happen. The whole idea behind loving your enemy is that if you loved your enemy they would no longer be your enemy. Speaking strictly though, the bible was written a long time ago, written by different people, and has been translated so many times its not even funny. You have to look through the messed up parts and find what you think to be the truth.

    Plus back then we didnt have big wars. Your enemy was the guy who looked at your wife funny, or betrayed you by sleeping with your wife, or stole your sheep. Back then your enemy wasnt people like Usama Bin Laden, that kind of evil wasnt around yet. Im sure that if the bible was written now that it would say "Love your enemy, but the person who does the most horrible things should die."

    At least thats my thoughts on it.

    -CounslerCoffee
     
  18. Cupric What's a wookie? Registered Senior Member

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    Truth,

    Yes, I did realize the whole thing wasn't a bible quote. Wasn't confused in the least - that's what those quote marks are there for.

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    Counsler,
    Yes, exactly!
     
  19. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    CounslerCoffee,

    "True" Christians will "soon" come and show the real power of Love

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    . I just want to have 4 kids first...

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    Anyways... seriously... Love is so powerfull that if you have God's Love in your heart anyone around you will ever hurt you and they will actually start to Love in the same way you do. The glory of God is around those who have the True Love, and no one can ever hurt someone that has the True Love. The Love can make great miracles, greater then you can ever imagine! The Love can overcome everything. It can permeate the thickest darkness and completly dissipate it. I hope you see It someday...

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  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    A few thoughts ... TruthSeeker

    I've heard this kind of thing before, and while it has served some people well in the past, it is still your own limitation.

    It seems almost human, as if the invention of a miniscule ultimate cause can comfort the realization of human smallness both in the world and the Universe in general.
    I won't go so far as to say that this is your own limitation, but I will go so far as to say that it is a product of your own limitations. On the sarcastic side, I would say, "Keep wishing". The psychological side is far too many words for the time I have tonight (only a few minutes). The reality though is that insofar as we are created in the image of God, it is a statistical necessity of the Universe, and not some divine beneficence.
    Diverse methods reach similar conclusions; too many times we stake ourselves on the diversity of method, and not on the common result.
    While Cupric's response should be adequate, I'll go a couple of steps farther.

    First, it should be noted that, while there is, indeed, a Biblical version of it, why should I give it any real attention? I'm impressed that it comes in Corinthians, but the Pauline vision of God lends to the notion that we're only speaking of a common concept in words themselves, and not in meaning.

    Secondly, were it well-written in the Bible ... um ... how to put this? Well, you wouldn't have asked me what I meant with the original phrase about a heart at ease.

    And, thirdly, for reasons that should be obvious in light of the first two points, the Sufi perspective is more functionally adept to me, and thus the one that I generally refer to. When Christianity at least maintains some greater sense of philosophical integrity throughout, its rhetoric will carry more meaning and thus more weight. If I choose among similar-appearing metaphors the Sufi over the Christian, it is because though I do not understand the full breadth of the Sufi version, it tends to guide me better than the other.
    The thing that is Sufism is claimed to be older than Islam, and in some cases claims to be as old as humanity, though there is no evidence of its conscious existence among people that far back; I've never actually traced the whole origin of the movement. I got a thumbnail sketch from Karen Armstrong and others, but nothing indelible.

    Sufism actually transcends any given religion. That's part of its purpose. The religions themselves (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam especially, though also others) rely on a number of accretions such as ceremony and presumption of fact. Sufism seeks to compose itself more subtly. Sufism seeks to know the core idea, unaccreted, that draws humans toward ideas of God. The rest is mere religion. I'll dig up a topic regarding an essay by Adilbai Kharkovli sometime soon that touches on that idea.

    But Sufism's association to Islam is ... interesting. Specifically, one trains for ritual observance by observing the Koran. Later, having learned the nature of ritual observance, one is free to cease ritual observance. Some Sufi masters do, indeed, carry various rituals with them; I've even read mention of a Sufi who served as a Christian priest of some sort. However, I get the general impression that Sufis prefer to consider issues a little more important than mere sorcery (e.g. ritual observance in exchange for divine favor).
    What I find most disgusting about teenagers these days is that it's what we expect from them. This is not to be taken as a presumption of hostility or stupidity or other dysfunction in a modern youth, but rather as a reflection of the fact that these attitudes are all they have. Even Christian youth are intolerable, and many are intolerant. But when you look around at what it takes to get attention, hold attention, and exploit attention, we should not, in my opinion, wonder at the wreck we've made of our youth. I'm 29, and I've never recovered from my teenage years. I now have a daughter, and yet I still have no intention of ever really growing up. Goddess grant, as such.
    If I had Xev's mind, I wouldn't stop laughing at that line. At any rate, and on a more serious note, it all depends on what "love" equals.

    Love well may be a fiction insofar as any objective quantification is concerned. After all, the perception of love is merely electricity. What else we make it is up to each of us. I remember a time in my life when getting laid was supposed to be an expression of love.
    The phrase has to do with is vital. I almost thought you were getting presumptuous and claiming to know.

    That would have been silly.
    On the one hand we have the road to hell. On the other hand, well ... if there is a true "right" way of doing things, then when upon that path, nothing would stop you, not even death itself. The intentions would suffice because the intent and the act would become one event as such.
    Too many hoops to jump through. It's an inefficient road that demonstrably leads not to conscious recognition of God's will but rather unconscious faith in God's will. This is a vital difference between the Sufi mirror and the Pauline. One seeks knowledge, one seeks faith.
    To be honest, while this kind of rhetoric does actually lighten my heart some, it is also of a vague and vulgar kind that really doesn't mean anything. To go deeper is a notion I can hear from anyone starting about Junior High and forward. What that actually means is the real trick. The red rose absorbs all colors but red, therefore red is the one color it is not.

    I'm actually out of time for once ... I'll try to finish up on those last few points soon.

    be at peace,
    the quiet is beautiful,
    Tiassa

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  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    tiassa,

    But He created us in His likenes... We have the same power He has, we just don't know how to use it. That's why He Loves those who seek wisdom...

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    I guess whatever we do with our lifes is pretty small... we are pretty limited... physically, mostly...

    "Statistical necessity of the universe"... ummm... I never though about that before...

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    ... but it's true....

    I think it is both. I know He would Love us to help Him creating universes. It must be pretty boring to be there all alone. Nowdays, however, the heavens is plenty with people...

    Besides that, I don't "wish" I am like Him. Instead, I "am" like Him. Actually, I try to be like Him. I've been trying to perfect my Love and my faith, but is not that easy. This week, He gave me a dream where a girl at school was Christian. I know she isn't (yet...) but the dream was so real that I believed she was. For a matter of fact, I knew she was a Christian. It became part of my reality. After I woke up I still believed she was a Christain. However, after some minutes I started to reason and got to the conclusion that she wasn't a Christian. That was my first real experience with faith, when belief=know...

    Other experience that I've been having is with other kind of belief. One day this week, I looked to the lake, where the bridge was and I saw the reflection of the bridge. However, I though it was oil that was uncarefully spilled by a truck, or whatever. I got mad at people, because they are so uncarefull (and we drink from that water...). I started to act like if that were oil, instead of simply the reflection of the bridge. I believed it was pollution and acted like if it were. When I reliazed it was just the reflection (when I got closer...), I was a little bit ashamed...

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    As long as you are not influenced by the jihad, I guess that's ok....

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    What I particularly like in Christianity is the power that it gives to Love. The Bible actually says that Love is God's kind of Faith (it's implicit though...). In this sense, perfect Love can make great miracles. In this sense, Love is what creates the universe and maintains it all in order. In this sense, Love is wisdom. In this sense, the practice of Love is more than an act of compassion or altruism, is a divine manifestation.

    I know what you mean...
    Didn't get much attention either... I've been treated as a littler kid too... the worse is when it is in the matters of work. We can work but when can't do... other... adult things...

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    Just kidding... I can do adult things... my parents trust me...

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    But see for example some years ago. Teens would be adult enough to got to the war, but not adult enough to vote! And I think it is still in the same way! Isn't that stupid? And they even expect us to go to school, work, and not get drunk or have fun with some friends...! It's like saying... "You are old enough to work, but you are not old enough to have fun". That's what my father seems to tell me, actually... :bugeye:

    ... 1 Corinthians 13...
    The Love I'm teaching to my kids is what is beyond tolerance. Is more then just respect, it is compassion, altruism, service, etc...

    If you know what I wrote, then you know what Love is...

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    Kinda...

    Christians seek wisdom. For a matter of fact, first we seek wisdom, then we have faith...

    I meant to go beyond of what you see. There is a lot of people doing good and anyone shows it in the TV. We actually almost only show bad things on the TV...
     

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