Me too. I'm still happy that the Berlin Wall went down. However, there's this new found part of me that wishes the Soviet Union was still there. Having another super power in the world seems to have kept the USA in check. Now I'm starting to view my own country as the "rogue state", and I don't like feeling that way.
sycoindian: --okkk... i completely agree that what happened in NYC was awful.. innocent ppl lost their lives... they had nothing to do with the decisions taken by the US govt... but the same has been perpetuated by the US govt... if they had a problem with Saddam during desert storm, they shud've taken him out... they cud've.. but they didnt for various reasons... instead, they bombed the entire country.... so many innocent ppl lost their lives too... and during the war btw afghanistan and russia... the americans trained the afghani's, gave em promises that they'll rectify the domestic issues... but they just tucked their tails when their selfish purposes were taken care of... now that isn't nice... left afghanistan in a big mess... obviously ppl were upset... it doesnt justify blowing up the WTC... but you can gain insight into why they did... can u imagine the amount of hatred and pain for ppl to resort to such action? its unbelievable...— • Cold war. Fighting against the enemy without introducing the possibility of nuclear war, but also using the Afghans as expendable people. I see your point. I can’t imagine they’re feelings but another possibility besides pain and (justified) anger is religion and it’s ignorance. Wasn’t it Osama that said he wanted to bring a “jihad” against America…a religious war (same as the crusades). We can’t tell if he really believes what he’s saying in those tapes he sent out, or he’s trying to complicate issues with religion. --you boast of your multiculturalism when you have to make a point while the country is riddled with racism... ahhhhhh.. such sweet irony....— • How can there be a place of so many different people without conflict between them? Racism is ignorance of another people. The communication isn’t good between all these cultures, but that’s why there’re so many different morals and views in America. I don’t consider America “unified” under anything but that can change as it did with 9/11. felix: --The US government and the corporations that buy their decisions have been meddling in other countries' affairs to help themselves for a long time. And THAT is the reason 9/11 happened in the first place— • Businesses trampling over other businesses is what capitalism is about. It’s competition, it’s survival of the fittest, it’s part of American culture. Today, companies are international, if the country’s government doesn’t like the way some company is doing business then they’ll reach a deal. Slim: --Perhaps I am learning from others. like, does anyone here ever Bitch About their own Country? do you have a life where you live?, or is America the only place to bash?— • Does it count if I bash America, when I live in it? I would love to see a bunch things change, I’ve written some threads about it too. Empty Dragon: --I would agree that material wealth is pointless. Still you gotta eat. In my country it is hard to find people who have an all out passion of life. I am assuming that is what you ment by the nocking of the socks. Still even the most foolish and ignorant man can hae a joy for life.— • Wealth gives you time to do what you want to do. I associate a civilized society with luxury. When people are born into luxury, they don’t know what “living” is, they don’t have a passion for life UNLESS they go out and have life experiences. If everyone is unified in a society with luxury, the society will die because no one will be able to have unique experiences. Like Adam said, freedom of speech is a way to keep the society’s people unique so the society can prosper. Individualism is not all about the individual, now is it? Material wealth isn’t as pointless as you think. Slim: --How many times will we hear about Hiroshima, Nagasaki, WW2, Supporting the Israelis, ETC........ we must appologise.. why is it only Americans must appologise"?— • I hope you don’t whine about political correctness, because that’s what you’re asking for. James R: --Of course. For my own part, I am criticising US foreign policy regarding Iraq. That in no way reflects on the views of the average American, except insofar as they support the policies of the government.— • You’re totally correct. They do support the government because it’s keeping them safe, but they may not support what the government does. That’s a little hard to understand though. And remember, this is what I think is happening, don’t take it as what every American thinks (I’m getting tired of writing that in every post regarding politics). • Try an analogy! America is like a theater play. The world is the audience. The actors (what the audience sees) are the politicians and the government and sometimes upper-class citizens. There are also the actors without speaking parts but people see them, and they are the military. You got the producers and directors, which in America’s case, are corporations and big businesses. It’s not evil for the people with the money to call shots, is it? The audience may get angry though, because sometimes the actors know what’s more “artful” or better for the entire play than the producers and directors. Then there’s the people making it all happen, costume designers, makeup artists, scenery, lighting, scripts, consultants. Some of these people don’t care how the play goes, they care about supporting themselves. But some of these people love their work and want to be apart of the entire production. They work hard until they can have the power and influence of a producer or director. The backstage workers, that only want to support themselves, are fine with what the play looks like to the audience as long as they get their pay check…that may confuse you more or help out. I know it’s a weak analogy. And…ITS NOT A PUPPET SHOW. And there are some backstage staffers that do want to be in the spotlight, but don’t want to act (me! And every American that talks politics but doesn’t do it) Tastybrain: --first, The U.S. is not a democracy. second, revolt IS necessary if the government (elected or not, representative or not) oversteps its bounds eggregiously. but then, both that fact and the ideas behind a democracy imply that the people are educated and active in their self-government. a very big pre-requisite.— • Keeping with my analogy, the backstage workers don’t want any part in orchestrating the “artsiness” of the play. It would be very hard to convince them to get involved…unless they make a union and demand better hours and more pay Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ...but that would be their leader. --our freedoms come with responsibility.... our government isn't taking enough.— • the only freedoms the constitution gives Americans is the freedom from the European hierarchies in the 16th century. Please understand. The government (their interpretation since after the American civil war) has taken those freedoms to mean reforming hierarchies, dictatorships, (and after WW2) fascist-communism. The American government, after the age of imperialism, could’ve isolated itself and been very happy. The freedoms the constitution gives don’t carry any responsibility beyond our borders. Europe was “torn apart” from the world wars and America was relatively lifted, economically (but not socially…that’s another story). America (I can’t distinguish between the people and the government here, I’m ignorant about the 50’s and 60’s besides cultural clichés) took the opportunity to become an influence in the world. Maybe they had no choice when they dropped the atomic bombs. But because of the wars, America took the responsibility themselves. I believe the responsibilities my government has now are not because of our “freedoms.” -- I chuckle in your face. It should read, we are bullying the international community into accepting our demands!!! We are leading the world in hypocrisy and corporate corruption!!!-- • And the Catholic church was before us, and they were the major influence in their time (and still are now, but they’ve been separated from the European governments since then). It’s nice that you can realize what’s happening, but take some time to think what a REAL (i.e. realistic) governing body should be composed of. I think of luxury, greed, and having a certain control over people. Today, people won’t stand for fascism, so you must keep a good chunk of the population happy. That’s where controlled individualism comes in. Give the opportunities for the people to be unique, let them have hardships so they become stronger, give them “freedom” so they can live in their unique way, and they will be happy while being “controlled” to make the machine run. The hypocrisy and corruption is part of that (although, when it gets out of control, then it’s extremely bad). There are no set rules for this “controlled individualism.” It just happens naturally and a government that sees this can manipulate it to draw more from it. It’s all theory. Just like a government that influences the most people in the world (anyone disagree with this? I’m just making a blind assumption here), not being the leader in corruption and hypocrisy. -- Ah, what beautiful pipe dreams.....-- • Yup If you have the heart to read all this junk, I envy you Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! It was written in Word, it's different from what I usually do.
Exactly how many? Have you personally made the effort to learn each of their names, or are they more important to you as just a nebulous number? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
mr. g, check this out to see why "so many innocent people" is said like they personally care. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11915
You mean just like this?: "Muslims must accept that the West has discovered ideas and methods that they must learn, adopt, and apply - that ignoring or rejecting them is a major mistake." This is a statement by Daniel Pipes, Washington policy maker, Director of the Middle East Forum and a member of the "Special Task Force on Terrorism and Technology" at the Department of Defense.
---Have you personally made the effort to learn each of their names, or are they more important to you as just a nebulous number?--- ooh..im sorry Mr. G... its too bad the iraqis didn't have the kinda money that the Americans spent on displaying the names of all the deceased civilians in the 9/11 incident at a U2 concert in New York... yeahh, its the fault of the iraqis for not making a comprehensive list of the victims...
---Wasn’t it Osama that said he wanted to bring a “jihad” against America…a religious war (same as the crusades).--- i agree with you grazzhoppa... he was trying to manipulate the religious views to garner more support throughout the entire middle east... i dont think he personally gives a shit if its termed as a jihad or not... he just wants to relate it to the incidents described as 'jihad' in the Holy Quran... and by no means that view is shared by all the muslims... no one here saw the attacks as part of jihad... so many muslims were actually angered by the fact that it was termed as 'jihad'... its just an act of vengeance with some religious sentiments sprinkled all over it... ---Businesses trampling over other businesses is what capitalism is about--- not necessarily a great idea... ---Material wealth isn’t as pointless as you think--- depends how u look at it.. but i agree what you said in that paragraph.. somethin caught my eye, but im not gonna get into semantics cuz im sure u didnt mean it... ---The American government, after the age of imperialism, could’ve isolated itself and been very happy.--- I highly doubt that... --- And the Catholic church was before us, and they were the major influence in their time (and still are now, but they’ve been separated from the European governments since then). It’s nice that you can realize what’s happening, but take some time to think what a REAL (i.e. realistic) governing body should be composed of. I think of luxury, greed, and having a certain control over people. Today, people won’t stand for fascism, so you must keep a good chunk of the population happy. That’s where controlled individualism comes in. Give the opportunities for the people to be unique, let them have hardships so they become stronger, give them “freedom” so they can live in their unique way, and they will be happy while being “controlled” to make the machine run. The hypocrisy and corruption is part of that (although, when it gets out of control, then it’s extremely bad). There are no set rules for this “controlled individualism.” It just happens naturally and a government that sees this can manipulate it to draw more from it. It’s all theory. Just like a government that influences the most people in the world (anyone disagree with this? I’m just making a blind assumption here), not being the leader in corruption and hypocrisy. ----- sounds a lot like THE MATRIX.... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! i see what you're saying there mate... u just described the system quite well.. i just dont find it morally correct... pumpkinsaren'torange - I donno if ur american or not.. but u described how these muslims are all nutbags and all those wonderful comparisons to the nazi movement... so it would be identical for me to say the same thing about all americans from the nutbag president that they have... now that wudn't be fair, wud it? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
ooh.. sorry G.. i thought u were talkin about how iraqis when u mentioned the quote about 'innocent ppl losin lives'... i thought u were mocking them... so ignore that comment where i lashed out at ya... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
quote Mr G Slim: Just a couple quick questions for you, not wanting to divert the thread.... quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ....a high hope for World Peace,.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you lock your doors at night? Your car? Password protect your computer? * no to the first two... Locally I have control. because of where I live, and the way I live.. yes to the password, because I cannot control the internet. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think We are doing Wrong with Cuba,.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The US is doing some trade with Cuba (mostly agriculural, I think), but not much, true. Still, Cuba is free to trade with everyone else in the world, and does. How is the US at fault for Cuba's condition? Afterall, the naval blockade was 40 years ago and we're just one more trading partner than it already has. *What I mean by this is: Cuba has been blockaided for so long by the U.S, most people forgot Why, or its the way its been since before they were born! Cuba in no threat anymore since the breakup of the Soviet Union... they are harmless, and I believe dialog should, would go forward, if some leaders weren't so hardheaded... It like Cuba is a habit.. and old one. meanwhile, Cuba could benefit from Tourism, and Americans could invest in Cuba if they wanted..and enjoy visiting a place without taking a dang plane.. its a waste is all! so close to Florida.
I completely agree with you. People that go to the extreme are IDIOTS, pure dumbasses. America isn't the "true axis of evil" People are stupid, what can we do about it?
I dont see a point to war with Iraq. Im not a patriot. I (as an individual living in america, not an american) dont want to be called stupid/racist for living in america, thats all. I dont want to be generalized.
grazz.... i did read through everything written. always do. good stuff. definately don't back you on the stage analogy though. Acting is done on the stage. the things i'm concerned about actually happen to people. no ketchup for blood. no blanks in the artillery and the rifles. and also, no deux ex machina. i do catch your point about the backstagers not practically being able to be involved in the "artsiness" (i.e. minutae) of the "production" (i.e. governing of our lives). my point about the democracy is that when a group of people are prospering and have a luxerious enough life, democracy seems to flounder and the ones who have power are left to lord it over anyone else (whether their own people or those of other lands). i do think democracy is possible in small groups. and yeah, material comfort has its place. it's not evil. not unless it becomes more important than respect, cooperation, compassion, dignity and all the other things that make the human spirit (taken in a broad sense) noble. money is too important. capitalism is NOT the best system possible. i'm not saying i have a better solution, but I do think as species, humans can come up with something better. only, the ones who are benefitting the most from the status quo (i.e. fat-cat companies) aren't going to easily allow that to happen, now are they? The catholic church was a major influence then. much less so now. i think that's good. you said: "Give the opportunities for the people to be unique, let them have hardships so they become stronger, give them “freedom?so they can live in their unique way, and they will be happy while being “controlled?to make the machine run. The hypocrisy and corruption is part of that (although, when it gets out of control, then it’s extremely bad). There are no set rules for this “controlled individualism.? It just happens naturally and a government that sees this can manipulate it to draw more from it." i don't fancy the idea of being part of a machine. i don't many others do either. Our government/s do see this and they do manipulate it and draw more from it.... the problem is their motivations and the end results.... Freedom and Justice for all.... isn't that it? improved from before. yeah. good enough? No way. i agree that people need to be governed. i don't believe in anarchy. but i do believe in justice and equity. I don't accept hegemony, corruption (though i know it will always exist), invasion of privacy, power-grabbing, gift-accepting politics. things need to change. I'm adding my voice to the growing rumble.
hear hear I'm with you on that one, Counselor... that's why I'm vocal about the policies my country adopts and to which I disagree... all the same, I can't help being cynical about possible progress...
Re: hear hear progress can be just a matter of perspective. the devil's dictionary defines a conservative as someone invested in the evils of the status quo, as opposed to a liberal, who seeks to replace them with new ones. all of this back and forth between the "left" and the "right" is obfuscation. we are all people and we need to appeal to our common humanity. i believe that progress must be forward-looking. in fact, i think that's the definition of progress. things can always be improved, especially human systems. the fact is that we are all flawed bundles of contradictions, continually growing and learning. americans (united statians?) are no different than anyone else in this regard. there are lazy, corrupt bullies all over the world. the sorry state of affairs with our government being heavily influenced by their big campaign donors in big business is not different. it's just a matter of scale. americans are truly blessed when compared to the rest of the world in having our basic human needs met. whenever anyone talks about "america" being anything, they are talking out their buttocks. first off, america is an entire continent, not the united states. second, the united states has been characterized as a "melting pot" of cultures, ethnicity, and faiths. this means that, for every view or belief, there is another completely different perspective. i think that most people mean "the u.s. government" when they say "america". that is something that we can all be nauseous over.
Peace activisists, aka pacifics need to come up with a real reason not to go to war. Quit saying that Iraq is "all about oil." BULLSHIT! While you're at it say that WWI and WWII were started by wealthy Jewish bankers looking to make money off of international slaughter. Come at me jealous anti-Americans. You can dish it out but can you take it? That's the real question.
