Anger as a prelude to intolerance

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by S.A.M., Apr 29, 2009.

  1. sniffy Banned Banned

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    So Columbine. Was that an example of 'shit happening'? Or might there have been a cause?
     
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    The cause was anomie, psychosis, detest for life. 'shit happeing' is Baron's way of explaining events not mine. Why didn't you post this in its original thread?:bugeye:
     
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  5. sniffy Banned Banned

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    Because I was feeling impish?

    In the columbine thread there was the implication that such events are just 'shit happening' a couple of shitty shits randomly shitting around. This from you and most other posters...don't you remember? And some comment about how it scared people to think about control or lack of it in these situations.

    So if we examine local events and world events together would we find recognisable causes or triggers for 'shit happening'?

    Is it just shit happening despite our best intentions or because of their ill intentions or is it just shit happening at some point or another over which we have no control?

    Is it either/or? Or is it a combination of factors?

    The road to hell is paved with something.

    Quite often it's a layer of anger smothered by the best of intentions.

    Topped by a whole load of 'shit happening'.

    Anger. First recognise the signs. Then learn to listen. Then do the right thing.
     
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  7. copernicus66 Banned Banned

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    ZOOOOOT. Right over your head, hey Lucy?

    I've got to agree with Baron on this one. It seems that the people who preach love and tolerance seems to be pretty quick to use intimidation, humiliation and coercion against those who disagree with their 'progressive' ideals.
     
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I never implied it was 'shit happening' .

    I posted this to Fraggle:

    Fraggel: Geeze who wouldn't feel at least a little sympathy for someone who crawled out of a concentration camp and turned into a mass murderer?

    I wouldn't. Its an explanation not a cause for sympathy. There are many who have suffered historical abuse who havent gone on to behave as predators. The abused becoming the abuser has an explanation but I its no cause for confusion when faced with an abuser. Whatever the childhood reasons its no way to vibe in the world, or like you said many who went through these camps do not hold up the notion that they are now entitled to abuse others based on a bad history. Look at all those people on talk shows who excuse themselves in front of an audience trying to garner sympathy for whatever behaviour based on their bad childhoods, it fosters a culture of brushing off responsibility, not taking ownership of ones problems and living in eternal victimhood. It also fosters an attitude where no one is able to point the finger and say 'this is simply wrong no matter what they hell you were through', then rights and needs of the abuser begins to override the rights and needs of the abused

    This Answer to Signal

    Signal: Unless people are offered a truly meaningful way to live, killings like those at Columbine and all other crime will continue to happen.


    You cannot offer someone a 'meaningful way of life' lifes meaning is something we all have to discover for ourselves, create for ourselves, these two didnt think it worth striving for.

    This to you

    SNIFFY: Do you get it yet Lucysnow? Bullies, it's all their fault. Created or born?

    I say born. They were worse than bullies they were cold hearted murderers, if you want to excuse them based on some notion of sympathy that's your business but you cannot expect others to waste their sentiments on them. I get that you believe there should be solutions. At present there are no solutions. You need someone to blame other than the parties because then you would feel there is a solution, there would be an easily assessed answer, culpability assigned. Life isn't always like that. Yes, the murders of others and themselves is their fault. Even if they had bad parents the actions they took were their decsions and theirs alone.

    This to you

    Troubled waters run ripples and isnt flat. You know most people who are depressed can't even get out of bed never mind plan anything (this includes their own deaths) which is why many people actually make suicide attempts when they are on anti-dep meds. I describe them as being dead inside based on their complete lack of empathy for others including themselves. Now if you want to waste your time worrying about those two lost kids go ahead, knock yourself out but i won't be one to do that. I would rather deal with the salvagable than what is already lost. I never said they deserved to die but they obviously felt they did and in retrospect it probably was for the best because they were not going to walk away from the murder of over 12 people.

    I brought up those who suffer from real deprivation because I have had the opportunity to see it and those people are not running around behaving in ways that are destructive towards others, they are abused and suffering and hurt and vulnerable they arent riding around in the BMW mommy and daddy purchased complaining about bullying and their poor sweet overpampered asses. I have no sympathy for them, I have some for their families and those of the victims but not for those two who wasted themselves and others. SORRY!

    This also to you

    There are neurobiological reasons for this kind of behaviour that can't be tied to environment and social conditioning.

    This to you

    But Sniffy wouldn't you agree that though there are things that need changing whether they be gun laws, parent involvement etc that these two 17 & 18 year old youths are still ultimately responsible for their actions? The fact that there may be others to blame doesn't make them any less responsible.

    This to Asguard

    Depression is beside the point and doesn't lead to murder. THEY WERE NOT VICTIMS. They planned this over a year, more than enough time for a reality check if not one of conscience which was obviously lacking. I don't have an ounce of sympathy for either of them. It seems to me your sympathies are misplaced. By the way, if they had acted out of distress during an abusive situation I would agree with you but they planned and their victims were of random whomever is in front of me targets. Also its like I posted on the animal snuff thread, you speak of killing in its abstract form 'oh I could really kill...' without having a clue what it means to actually have to act in this manner. There have been soldiers under fire who have hesistated to pull the trigger because they had never shot at anyone before. Killing takes practise, killing takes a cold gut. They didn't kill out of passion or despair, they killed because they were dead, the dead don't despair because the dead feel nothing. They attached no value to life, their own and others. That last sentence I add is what makes them sociopaths and their actions are what makes them psychotic.

    Unless I am mistaken all of my posts from there are now here. Knock yourself out.
     
  9. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry there was more

    Ok Roman and Asguard. Please take a look at this and then tell me this isn't sociopathic if not psychotic behaviour. I don't believe for one second that 'bullying' is the sole cause for this kind of nihilistic action, its already been common knowledge for a while that they had planned this for a long time. I disagree with the 'loner' label as there are pictures of them in a group, they had their own crowd they ran with even if they were not the 'in' crowd. No one is saying bullying is good for kids or doesn't have negative consequences but please lets have some perspective here.
    I wouldn't even say that they succumbed to depression, PTSD or any of that crap, they are prime examples of anomie.


    Frags Washington piece states:


    "We remember Columbine," Cullen writes, "as a pair of outcast Goths from the Trench Coat Mafia snapping and [then] tearing through their high school hunting down jocks to settle a long-running feud. Almost none of that happened. No Goths, no outcasts, nobody snapping. No targets, no feud, and no Trench Coat Mafia. Most of those elements existed at Columbine -- which is what gave them such currency. They just had nothing to do with the murders."

    They claim:

    Far from feckless pariahs, in fact, the two shooters in the Columbine case -- Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold -- were smart, reasonably popular kids who doled out more bullying than they ever suffered. Their shooting spree was not some precipitous act of revenge against specific tormentors, but more like an elaborately planned theater piece, worked out almost a year in advance, designed to demonstrate their innate superiority by indiscriminately killing as many victims as possible.

    Harris and Klebold, moreover, were hardly cookie-cutter assassins. As Cullen depicts him, Harris was a sadistic and expertly manipulative psychopath, charming when he wanted to be, capable of simulating remorse, good will or cooperation if it helped him get his way. His underlying motivation was relatively simple: "I hate the [expletive] world," he complained in his journal. Klebold, on the other hand, was a tortured, erratic depressive who whined at length in his notebooks about love and romance even as he fulminated about "the real people (gods)" -- i.e., himself and Harris -- being "slaves to the majority of zombies." Klebold's aggression was inwardly directed and complex: "Good god I HATE my life," he wrote, "i want to die really bad now."

    And so they did and good riddance to them.

    And these two to asguard

    Bad parenting and lax gun restrictions does not account nor excuse nor explain their behaviour. Did you see the video footage?

    But you didn't. There is a difference between thought and behaviour and when someone gets to the point where they have to act out all their thoughts without discrimination its a sign of mental illness.

    Why are you so hard pressed to defend these two guys?

    To whomever

    Sniffy I wasn't referring to their deaths, I was pointing out that they were dead inside long before they killed others and themselves

    Sniffy Would you hold yourself responsible for every mistake your child makes? At one point you do what you can and what you know how to do or what you are able to do and then the rest is up to them. At some point your kids are going to make decisions for themselves and come to conclusions that are in no way a reflection of you

    They were 'psychotic little shits'.

    Sniffy: Because they are troubled kids and/or are going through complex emotional issues which no-one had the skill or empathy to recognise?

    Oh stop it. Please that kind of liberalism just goes too far, 'complex emotional issues' indeed! THEY HAD NO LOVE FOR LIFE! They couldn't care for themselves or others. You give those who do have 'emotional issues' a bad name. Are we now all supposed to look at Hitler and excuse his actions as a world leader because he was a lonely child? Because he was a mediocre artist and no one wanted to recognize his work so he felt unaccepted and disenfranchised? Really now buck up man! These people are not even living in any hardship, think of all the kids around the world who live with real deprivation, who see war, who are forced into being child soldiers, sold by their families into prostitution and you have the nerve to waste your sympathy on those two! jesus the whole bloody planet should have these kind of shootings based on your argument, they should be happening 100x's a day all over the world. Basically these events are still isolated. They're not political warriors you know fighting for some misguided ideal. They were not 'crying inside' they were cold blooded psychotics too dead inside to be of any value.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  10. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Wait there's more

    Society cannot be blamed for every member that falls through the cracks. Parents, schools etc all have a part to play in the overall health of their community but you are not going to be able to have a system where all psychotics can be identified. The truth is that most young people who may be troubled do not act out in such a nihilistic fashion and this is why I say these two were a prime example of anomie not in the social sense but in the expression of their state of mind. The truth is that not all psychotic behaviour is a result of bad parenting, bullying, depression, or unhappiness etc. but even if these factors applied at the age of 17 and 18 you are capable of making decisions and coming to conclusions. If you have a formula for a lack of conscience please come forth with it. If it is society in general then you would see this behaviour more often in society in general but even then people are responsible for their actions.

    Did I leave anything out Sniffy?
     
  11. Challenger78 Valued Senior Member

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    Isn't disagreement inciting anger, because it's a loss of control on behalf of the person whose proposal is refused?..
    It boils down to how much you can control the other guy..
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Or sniffy posturing as a wannabe bully. The bullies she has so much pity for because if they aren't understood all of society would spiral out of control. Therefore Sniffy advocates... Well I don't know... What do you advocate Sniffy?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  13. sniffy Banned Banned

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    Yes. Anger.

    The cause of the end behaviour is irrelevent up to a point; the point at which you identify a cause/causes). In the case of columbine the results (whatever the cause or causes) were the pointless deaths of a lot of people. What we have to do FIRST is recognise symptoms. If you are going to claim that these kids were psychotic then, as per link I posted, they are going to exhibit certain psychotic behaviours. Irrationality, superiority, lack of conscience, complexes, fixations, bullying behaviours, anger.......

    Now I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that a lot of the 'shit that happens' does so because anger goes unrecognised, is ignored, encouraged, or is handled very badly. I do actually see a lot of this behaviour in 'society'. In fact I'm seeing more of it. Mass shootings are few (ish) and far between but there's plenty of anger knocking off the odd one or two here and there and those figures add up. Young people in particular have a lot of strong feelings and they don't often know how to handle them. Anger then can go two ways in or out. Ever seen an angry drunk...with a gun.....

    Am I making any headway here?

    Now extrapolate this out to a 'community' with a grievance and then out again to a 'country' with a grievance and you can start to see patterns of behaviour where there is a perceived (may well be justified) wrong, where the anger goes unchecked (or is deliberately stoked) and you have a whole group of people wanting to express their anger in increasingly explosive ways.

    Now back in to columbine. Maybe those boys were wired wrong in the brain and were 'destined' to behave in the way they did. Since it was their finger on the trigger they were indeed responsible for the killings but please please please don't tell me there weren't any signs. Hint: GO back and read Frags link. IT'S ALL THERE!!

    So Baron is right that 'shit happens'. Sometimes it happens for a reason or a combination of reasons but believe me before any 'shit happens', there is some kind of movement to indicate it's coming.

    So by all means duck and hope it doesn't land on your fan.....
     
  14. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    I don't believe in the 'cruel to be kind' approach. You are either cruel, or kind, and that is the end of it.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have children/parents? Do you ever get angry with them?
     
  16. Gustav Banned Banned

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    is the baron asking to be loved and tolerated while he rapes and pillages?

    /snicker
     
  17. Gustav Banned Banned

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    no such thing
    this "cruelty" is probably a bogus emotional consideration
    the "right" approach to solutions are reached by rational thought
     
  18. Gustav Banned Banned

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    shit happens to the weak of intellect and lazy of disposition
     
  19. sniffy Banned Banned

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    Well I'll be fucked!


    When Cornell and Schalmoser presented their plan to Columbine, the school had already been alerted that one of its juniors, Eric Harris, might be dangerous. At night, Harris and his friend Dylan Klebold had been building an arsenal and making plans to use it - plans that Harris wrote about on the Internet, on his Web site.

    In 1998, Brooks Brown was a junior at Columbine. That March, he found his name on Harris' Web site. Harris was threatening to kill him.
     
  20. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Sniffy: Am I making any headway here?

    No its a rant. What is your solution again? To get angry about it or to dissolve anger? I'm not sure. Cullen spent ten years studying the situation and you have decided that you know what the answer was to their 'disposition'. Fine. Now what? Because you seem to see this everywhere and I don't. I don't see teenagers blowing themselves away and taking their classmates with them. I don't see a correlation between columbine and every other catastrophic event in history. But hey if you think you have the answer to this great. Best of british luck to you. Lot's of people have come out of with answers to the great problems maybe you are one of them. What this has to do with the Taliban in Pakistan though I dont know, maybe Baron knows.

    But perhaps its best if you talk to fraggle about it.

    You deal with that, SAM will deal with Palestine and I'll pay attention to the KR trials and foreign policy initiatives. Deal?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  21. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I have parents, and yes, I occasionally get angry with them.

    I don't consider myself as loving-compassionate - as if that would be 'who I really am, but which sometimes gets obscured by anger'.
     
  22. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, a way to justify plain old cruelty.
     
  23. sniffy Banned Banned

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    A rant...? The fact that I feel passionately that there shouldn't be even one incident of teenagers going on a kiling rampage?

    That there may be some signs to indicate they might? And then to take action to stop them?

    That a little girl on a beach in who'd been studying Tsunami's in class recognised the signs and warned a few people thus saving their lives

    Well then I guess you just don't see the signs........

    the anger which is a prelude to something

    the angry bullies

    the angry men throwing stones at women

    the angry women throwing stones at men



    that anger and guns do not make a good combination

    that people with guns invading your country makes people angry

    add a few yourself why don't you



    acknowledge

    listen

    reflect

    act

    you'll be amazed where it gets you

    heading towards solutions
     

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