Do you support the DREAM act?

Now you are just being controversial for the heck of it. The New Colossus in no way suggests any limitation based on immigration status. In fact, it speaks of a "world-wide welcome" from the "Mother of Exiles." Neither even hinting that this means "of the non-trash sort." It says the trash is precisely who we want.

I do agree that by and large legal immigrants have had a greater impact on the country than illegals, because there have been so many more of them. I am unaware of any study that suggests that illegals and their children (who are the ones at issue here) would be significantly less likely to add value to the country if we lifted the prohibitions on their being here.

If you believe in free markets then the free flow of labor is just as much a good thing as the free flow of capital. Legal or illegal, it should be market processes that draw people here and closed borders are just the same as a trade restriction on imports (of foreign labor, rather than foreign goods).

 

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The free flow of labor is undesirable in this case. That barrier to "human capital" is there for a reason. Limitations exist to protect our healthcare and education systems, and our wage structure. This is a case where the barrier is a GOOD thing.

There are problems besides the economic ones. It's cultural, and political, and ideological. Americans shouldn't have to be swamped by a foreign culture if they don't want to be.

 

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You know every isolationist culture fail miserably right? Or do you want america to stagnate and rot?

 

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Lol. Restricting immigration is hardly "isolationist." Have you tried immigrating to the UK, or any other EU nation? It's harder than immigrating to the USA -- which is already very difficult. Funny how these isolationist restrictive immigration type countries (USA, UK, Germany) are also the worlds' most successful, eh? You can't even be a citizen in Germany if you are not German by blood. Part of their goal to preserve "ethnic homogeneity."

I guess trying to maintain your own culture is racist in your eyes? Instead we should all have to hear Mexican circus music when we leave our houses, eh?

 

Excuse me if I place more confidence in the views of Alan Greenspan and the like than I do in your racist/elitist self delusions.

So the guys picking apples in California and driving cabs in Houston are hurting people in what way exactly?

Yes, I wish to call the policies in force during the periods of major immigration 'open door', largely because it is my recollection that that is how historians and sociologists referred to them. If they used a different term, or you prefer a different term, that's fine, but trying to erect a strawman to distract us from your weak argument will not work.

Really. Then why are all those US employers employing so many of these unwanted blue collar labourers? I mean if there is no work for them, how come so many of them are working? That's mighty peculiar!

Right. A lot of us are nodding our heads here at that highly diagnostic paragraph.

The question is wholly irrelevant to the discussion. I am arguing from logic and facts, from the twin perspectives of compassionate humanity and enlightened self interest, and from the sound benefits that accrue to a properly managed, more versatile immigration policy.

For some reason the question seems important to you. I will say this. My father worked hard throughout his life. At times he was earning less than he could have received by not working while taking benefits (or governnment hand-outs as your sort likes to call them).
My mother worked as a domestic servant in her teens and early twenties until she married my father. Through their efforts they were able to purchase a home and I became the first family member amongst all the preceding generations and a couple of dozen cousins of my own generation to graduate from university.

Now in what possible way can that history be relevant to your argument? Especially since my father never once set foot in the US, or in Mexico, or indeed in any foreign country apart from a day trip to France. And my mother only entered the US briefly (and completely legally) to be on hand when my daughter - an American citizen - was born.

(Thanks to pjdude, pandaemoni and shichimenshyo for highlighting the divisive nonsense in Saven's posts.)

 

This is completely incorrect. Either you are ignorant, or you are lying. Which is it?

For the innocent bystanders Wikipedia has a reasonable review of the topic, where you will find that permanent residents of foreign extraction can be naturalised after eight years.

 

That was before the welfare state, when everyone had to stand on their own two feet. Under those circumstances, more people was a good thing. But one of the inherent evils of the left is that it turns people into a liability rather than a benefit. Repeal all welfare laws, stop national healthcare, or at least do so for immigrants; and I say fine; let them in. But if we're going to immediately extend a myriad of welfare and healthcare benefits to anyone who slips over the border; we can't afford to take everyone that wants to come in.

To be truly free, you have to stand on your own two feet. Each additional government benefit ties us down that much more. Limits our freedom, and limits how many people we can extend the blessings of liberty to.

 

how can you stop national healthcare.

it doesn't exist in the USA.

 

no but restricting immigration because you don't like the people like you want to is.

untrue. I have seen the list of things needed to become a german citizen and being of the german ethnicity isn't one of them.

nice turn around to bad no one is dumb enough to buy it.

 

its fearmongering

 

Yeah You want everyone to stand on their own to feet just like you have yet you probably ignore all the things the public did to allow you. The whole stand on your own 2 feet argument is bullshit because its never been true. And mad we could afford to if people like you didn't have a pathological irrational hatred for taxes.

 

And none of the issues are addressed. If your argument had any merit you wouldn't need to pay it forward to Greenspan. Tons disagree with him. In fact, the MAJORITY of Americans disagree with him -- which is why this amnesty bill continues to fail and fail and fail.

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They aren't. Like I said before, there are almost no illegal aliens in the state that I live in now. Our economy is one of the best in the whole country. We've had the highest per capita personal income for years, and it's thanks to having NO illegal immigrants working for pennies on the dollar and injuring naturalborn American citizens.

Illegals are hired in places where they are paid in cash or where companies don't use e-verify (look it up). It isn't "illegal labor" that is in demand. It's low wage labor, which illegals happen to supply. That's a crucial distinction you need to make. If these illegals were gone, those jobs would fill up with American workers again -- just like they did 50 years ago, when we had very few illegals in the country.

And still the answer doesn't come. Why am I not surprised? It's not irrelevant at all. It would explain exactly why you are taken with a pro illegal immigration stance.

 

You need to reread the article. If you are born to parents of German descent, you are a citizen -- even if you are born outside of Germany.

But for anyone else, it requires that your *parent* be living in Germany for 8 years AND live there legally. The parents do NOT become citizens when the child does. Their laws are WAY stricter than ours. No anchor babies in Germany to keep the illegal parents around -- which is what I am assuming you are, in the USA?

Yeah, they wouldn't let you in.

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If you are born to parents of German descent, you are a citizen -- even if you are born outside of Germany.

 

read the whole thing

 

You aren't making any sense here pjdude. Americans are the ones who pay all those taxes. We don't owe healthcare and education to people decided to break our laws and disrespect our sovereign right as a nation to force legal immigration only. We provide a K-12 education, free ER visits, and calls to the police and fire department and all our other public works to these illegals. We do that to appeal to our common humanity -- but most of them don't pay a DIME in return, with the exception of the few who obtain an ITIN. These greedy slimeballs who crawl over the border in droves just want to take and take and take. They don't respect our ideals, they are completely ignorant of our history and they know next to nothing about the great figures of our revolution. Basically, they're just a bunch of ignorant human garbage, and we have no responsiblity to help them pursue their greedy dreams. Sorry.

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For those entering the thread at this point here is some catch-up. Saven asked me if my parents were illegal aliens. I argued that that was irrelevant to the discussion, since my arguments were based upon facts, not upon any emotional bias related to my family history.
He insisted he wanted to know if I was 'the child of illegals, or what?'

I gave him the answer, but he responded with this.

1. I have not 'taken with' (sic) a pro illegal immigration stance at all. (Don't be any sillier than you have to be.) I am arguing that illegal aliens have made a significant contribution to the US economy. I am further arguing that this contribution and their status needs to be dealt with in an imaginative and productive manner, to enhance that contribution.

2. Excuse me. Are you unable to read. Refer to my last but one post. After explaining why your question was irrelevant I gave a brief history of my parents then explained that "......my father never once set foot in the US, or in Mexico, or indeed in any foreign country apart from a day trip to France. And my mother only entered the US briefly (and completely legally) to be on hand when my daughter - an American citizen - was born."

Which portion of my comprehensive explanation were you having difficulty understanding? Do you believe that your comprehension difficulties are related to funds being diverted from education in your school district, when you were young, to provide support for the children of illegal aliens?

Do you really need a translation of that? OK. My parents were not illegal aliens. I am not an illegal alien. None of my family are illegal aliens. During the period in which I lived and worked in the US I did so in a fully legal manner, entering the country on an L1 visa. I currently hold a B1/B2 visa valid for life, but choose to enter the US, on a regular basis, under the visa waiver program.

Do you now require to know what colour underwear I have on when passing through immigration? Can you at least try reading my responses next time and ask for help when you need it.

And still the answer doesn't come.:shrug:

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EDIT: You yourself are a visitor to the USA then? Not even a permanent resident?

 

No, you need to read and to understand the article. Even if it had the restricted meaning you are trying to place on it, that would still show your original statement to be wholly wrong. However, your interpretation is equally flawed. After eight years anyone with a permament residence can apply for naturalisation.

Of course this does not apply to me. I can go over to Germany tomorrow and start working, since I am citizen of the EU. I presume if I wished to swap my current citizenship for German I would have to meet the residency requirements and certainly improve my language, but all of this is incidental to the point that you have clearly demonstrated a) you don't know what you are talking about b) when you are presented with facts you can't even understand them.

 

I do not live in the US at present. At no time in this discussion have I explicitly or implicitly stated I lived in the US at present. You have assumed this from the outset. Assumption seems to be something you are skilled at.

(And let me note that I make one hell of a larger contribution to the US economy than the majority of US citizens, for which certain of your fellow citizens very kindly reward me with large sums of money. Apart from that, the shares I hold in US companies mean I have a very strong personal interest in a strong, bouyant US economy and I don't take kindly to idiots like you trying to fuck it up because you lack the education or intellect to appreciate what you are doing.)

Argue away. You are a turkey and there is nothing to be gained in talking to you further. You are on Ignore.

 

For fucks sake please at least fucking read all the posts in the thread. Once again you put your mind to the task and have yet to manage to actually respond in an intelligent manner with out sounding racist.