Do you support the DREAM act?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Saven, Jul 4, 2009.

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  1. Saven Registered Member

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    Nay, but it explains why you are pro illegal immigration. And because you are not even a legally permanent resident of the USA, we can just toss your opinion on the DREAM act out the window. It means nothing to you, and you have no actual stake in the matter.

    NEW PATHWAY OF THE THREAD: this discussion is designed for Americans, who have the experience and knowledge of illegal immigrants and their effects on our cities to adequately converse about the topic at hand. For the rest of you: this is not your country. You are free to comment on things, but your opinion shall be subsumed when I conclude the thread and make a decision either way on which side succeeds in the discussion. Henceforth this shall be Saven's Law.
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    So in other words under Saven's law we can just ignore your opinion? I'm say that because I believe you meant
    to be Americans who have the experience and knowledge of illegal immigrants and their effects on our cities to adequately converse about the topic at hand. yes i know there isn't much difference punctuation matters.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
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  5. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    And let me note that I make one hell of a larger contribution to the US economy than the majority of US citizens, for which certain of your fellow citizens very kindly reward me with large sums of money. Apart from that, the shares I hold in US companies mean I have a very strong personal interest in a strong, bouyant US economy.

    Your consistency in being unable to read is remarkable.

    Now where the hell did that Ignore button go?
     
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  7. Saven Registered Member

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    Thanks for stopping by. Get some help, soon.
     
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I think that if they are going to have a law like this then it should be done in tandem with the those who have been here legally, meaning that they should get a temporary residency and wait behind those who were here legally as permanent residents waiting for citizenship, it would take a long time but that doesn't matter. The problem with this law is that it encourages illegal immigration. Anyone who has citizenship rights will be able to apply for their families to be citizens as this is the law so basically not only would those students become residents and citizens but so would the rest of their family members. To offer it so readily is like saying if you come with your children and educate them here long enough then you will not be denied eventually. What they have to decide is whether they are serious about setting deterrents on illegal immigration or not, if not then fine but why should those temporary or in line applicants who have been legally working to achieve their goals be set aside for others who have come in through the back door so to speak?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
  9. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    The words that stand on the Statue of Liberty is there precisely to greet the new immigrants who the U.S were willing to take. It's not a romantic nostalgic open invitation. Perhaps if you were not so emotional you would have read Saven's posts and see that he is making some interesting points, that being in regard to legal applicants who have been working hard to become citizens, the majority who happen to be minorities.
     
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    He's just a racist try to cover his ass with a thin veil pay attention to his posts and you can see it.
     
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Do you mean 'I can see it' or 'I can't see it'?

    Anyway there is a tendency here on the forums for people to become emotional and have a knee-jerk reaction to any topic of this nature and immediately assume someone is a racist or anti-semite, fascist or nazi sympathizer and god only knows what. I think it serves our discussions for us to really take a look at what is being said on an issue. If we are too belligerent towards a poster we fail to hear any reason in what they are saying and they in turn get their back up and react simply to the attack. Certainly it must be possible to discuss these issues without branding someone just for holding an opinion.
     
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    Look in between the lines. look for whats implied and not implied. or not. because calling a group you don't like trash is so not bigoted at all.
     
  13. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    But we only unveil matters of intention and motive by methodically going through the process of question and clarification not by jumping the gun and accusing someone of WHAT WE THINK WE ARE HEARING which happens a lot, then interestingly enough you never truly discern what the person is saying and its the end of communication. Its like when you have built an aura around someone and then never really see what's behind it. If he's a racist then he wouldn't be for any immigration including the applicants who are waiting in line who are surely mostly minority. Why call him racist? He could simply be conservative.
     
  14. Saven Registered Member

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    What's hilarious about this big palava is that I'm a far left liberal. I think gay marriage should be legalized everywhere and I'm rabidly anti-corporate.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    It is my liberal soul that forces me to support American workers, not a bunch of illegal aliens who got sick of their scratbag neighborhoods back home and decided to bring their kids. Those parents knew that they were ruining their kids' lives when they brought them here illegally. It is their fault, not the USA's.

    And calling me a racist for not being pro illegal immigration is wildly retarded on pjboy's part. I am completely FOR legal immigration. My own father, his brother, his sister, and their parents were all born in Germany and flew over here legally and built a home in Anaheim, California. Things were nice back then. There were almost no illegal aliens during that time, and Anaheim was a small town and a nice place to live. There were practically zero Mexicans there.

    Today the place is over half Mexican, and it hurts me every time I fly from the East Coast to visit everyone again. The town is trashed, its identity is lost forever, and Spanish is spoken on every street corner. The place is swamped, all for these people who were "only seeking a better life." Yeah, a better life -- at the expense of OUR way of life. The problems with so many cultures entering the USA today, is they bring their culture, language, traditions, and religion, with them. They set up shop just like back home, and if their traditions and culture conflict with our own legal system, then they believe it is our legal system that must defer to their traditions. It has nothing to do with race.

    Their loyalties for the old country don't evaporate as they once did, instead they support their old country more than ours. People used to blend.....now they want to remain separate and shove their cultures and beliefs down our throats. If we wanted to live in other cultures, well, we'd go there. We shouldn't have to be foreigners in our own land and we damn well don't have to like it. Nor do we have to accomodate the scum who want us to like it.

    To the person who cited the statue of liberty statement: There's a part of me that thinks it was BETTER when people came here out of desperation and never wanted to look back to their old country. Now it seems it's more of a pit stop to take what they want and have no real desire to be here.

    Still support the illegals, guys? Yeah, just wait until your car is wrecked or someone you know is killed by an unlicensed illegal alien driver with no liability insurance, no address, and who, by law, shouldn't be here in the first place.
     
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well this is a problem of integration more than immigration as some immigrants really don't intend to 'blend in'. My best friend recently told me about this episode:

    "Earlier in the year Salam kindergarten went on an outing to the zoo. At the end of the trip they received Santa hats as a gift. When the parents saw their children coming back with the Santa hats on their heads, there was a commotion. The parents, who are among the most religious Muslims in Denmark, saw it as a Christian religious symbol being forced on their kids. Some of the parents demonstratively threw it into the trash, while others cut it up before doing the same.

    Salam was created as a Muslim women's center to help immigrant women. Salam kindergarten has in the past ten years developed into a purely Muslim kindergarten with a long waiting list. Religious Muslims from all over Copenhagen sign up their children to the kindergarten.


    Together they started preparing new regulations and a new operating agreement with the municipality. They wanted to protect Salam's values. The two danish teachers wanted everything to be clear, so they could say that children in a Danish kindergarten are allowed to draw and sing, and that koran lessons belong at home. Koran lessons had been given at Salam for a few years.

    With these regulations in hand the kindergarten could ask parents to leave if they were not interested in following them. But the municipality had difficulty in finding legal support for such rules. It wasn't possible to write in the rules that children should learn about Danish Christmas, for example, but rather that they should learn about Danish culture.

    http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/06/copenhagen-hizb-ut-tahrir-kindergarten.html

    You can read the whole article its a long drawn out hubbub.

    Anyway its really off topic.

    I just think there is this atmosphere hypersensitivity and disparage and smear anyone who approaches subjects that are not considered politically correct. Its really unhealthy on a site like this and unproductive since we live in a world of clash whether it be religious or ethnic or cultural and we have to learn how to listen to people who do not share our understanding of things. How can we approach these discussions in our society if we cannot do so on this site? I mean to simply shove the other in the corner to distance ourselves does not lead to anything but more disharmony.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  16. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    Lucy guess what shitting on people because of who they are is in fact racist and that is exactly what he is doing. What he does say is what makes alot of what he says implied as racist. Tell me if some called you and your entire ethnic group and socioeconomic class trash simply because they came here illegally(probably because the cost of waiting would be too much) you think that person was racist with good reason they are.
     
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not calling you racist because your against illegal immigration I'm calling you a racist because of how you refer to them note lucy here is on the same side of you and I haven't called her a racist could it be because she isn't shitting on them?







    You have been reported for altering a users name to disparage them and for general racist remarks.
     
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well then I must have missed something and need to go back and check because immigrants do not come from one ethnic group and he hasn't singled out an entire ethnic group and disparaged them. I hate to tell you this but using the term trash doesn't make one a racist. I dislike being in Korea because I think the people are rude but it doesn't make me racist, I easily and freely say 'I can't stand Koreans', won't even use their airline it might be glib and off the cuff but it still does not make me a racist as I would never under any circumstances advocate taking away their human rights or dignity.

    Saven doesn't believe that illegals should be given de facto permanent resident rights under the DREAM act, he seems to think that immigrant applicants who are waiting to become citizens should get first dibs and that immigration should have set limits. There isn't anything extreme about these views, and trying to paint him as racist because he used the word trash in conjunction to illegals is as 'bad' as calling all Bush lovin conservatives a bunch of 'white-trash rednecks'. I have seen that used here on this site and no one was up in arms, its simply an opinion and to call it racist ill-legitimizes real racism which is actively destructive as one uses their power to disenfranchise another group of people, not about thoughts in ones head or words like 'trash'. Its thought policing not legitimately and intelligently dealing with the topic at hand. What you are saying is he doesn't have the right to think this way about immigration and he doesn't have the right to use that word to describe illegals but if that's the way you feel then you should say that but don't dismiss it all and say 'he's a racist' because there is nothing to identify him as a real racist save what you have in your head, anymore than him calling illegals trash actually makes them trash. Most illegals are at risk if anything else from being jailed, attacked, its not a fun thing they live in fear of getting ill and needing to go to the hospital where they may be deported, its complete insecurity, they have difficulties with everything. Its a horrible life I wouldn't wish it on anyone. The law would work if they also made it fair for the ones who were already waiting in application. They will have to do something else to address illegal immigration because this law is not going to solve the problem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  19. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Besides the fact that trade agreements like NAFTA economically disenfranchises Mexican farmers who no longer can sell their corn etc, one way to stop brain drain and also to help bolster these neighboring economies is to have a system where you can allow someone to get an education and work for a period of time but then they must return to their country to contribute to their own society. Running away from problems in their own home country is not the answer but if they had some tools to take back with them and some money saved then maybe they could contribute more. I think this would save the U.S money in the long run and would be better for these people and their communities they have left behind.
     
  20. Saven Registered Member

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    Not even sure what you are talking about. Sounds like some sour grapes thing. Next.
     
  21. Saven Registered Member

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    Oh, and yep. Accusing me of engaging in racism, without any legit grounds to do so, without being able to point out any location where I actually made any racist remarks, and without a single identifiable reason except because you are of Mexican descent and feel an inherent need to defend "your people," is WAY more insulting than any rule I possibly broke in this thread.

    Reported as well, lol!
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  22. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    3,485
    Sorry if I confused you, I'll try again. I never said I supported this DREAM act, in fact I disagree with the method, but I think the idea itself has merit. So if I were voting on it, I'd vote it down. These individuals are for lack of a birth certificate saying so, are Americans. A kid who was forced to come here at 3 years old can most likely read, write, and speak fluent English. I don't think they should be put ahead of other immigrants, but in the same line. Pay the same fees, take the same tests, meet the same requirements, fill out the same paperwork. The only difference is that it would be easier for them to obtain conditional temporary citizenship. Now that passports are required to get into and out of Mexico, I can't imagine any 17 year old, with no documentation from either country having an easy time smuggling themselves back across the border without getting caught and forcefully deported anyway. Unless there is a Mexican embassy somewhere around here. It does nothing to deter furture immigration, but it's no different (in fact a little more complicated) than throwing a pregnant woman over the line so her child is born here, something that is also done all of the time. It will still be a problem, but I don't see how it would really hurt legal immigrants.
     
  23. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not mexican I'm eastern european. Still showing the same tendecy to spout shgit. and yes saven calling people trash because you don't like them( and your mexican comments makes me think you believe all illegals are from latin america) is in fact racist. You have yet to say anything about the asian illegals but have focused on those from latin america.




    and I have pointed it out. So lets see your racist, to lazy to read post, and to lazy to get your facts straight tell me why should we take you seriously.
     
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