Cap and Trade Passes the House (US)!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by joepistole, Jun 28, 2009.

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  1. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    whats the unit being measured? 1,000,000+ doesn't really tell me anything.
     
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  3. tuberculatious Banned Banned

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    you import more than you export. That's a deficit.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Cap and trade is not a leftist idea. The leftists don't want it, and have been fighting it for years. It's the corporate right that wants this kind profit center market set up, with its tax deductions and opportunities for financial wheeling and dealing.

    The libertarian leftists want direct government-mandated reduction of corporate greenhouse gas emissions. The authoritarian leftists want that reduction mandate extended to individuals as well. And they want taxes raised to pay for it - on the corporations involved (libertarian) or on everyone (authoritarian). Most leftists, being better educated than most Texans, can tell the difference between a tax and an indirect price hike.

    And how any of this will drive up the price of gasoline has never been explained to me. Gas prices are set by supply and demand, and more or less controlled by a cartel of producers and refiners.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
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  7. Texas Bob Registered Senior Member

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    Well, for starters you assume incorrectly I liked Bush. I am not a republican either. I am registered independent and I personally am tired of only having the choice of the lessor of two evils in every election since I was old enough to vote 21 years ago.

    That said, where this country is going under this administration with a Congress controlled by the same thugs is clear to me at least a recipe for total disaster.

    If you want to compare deficit amounts under Bush verse Obama then here's the chart.

    http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/

    I have been suggesting to friends those of us who pay taxes should go on strike. You know, all us 'rich' evil white guys stop being productive for a while just for fun.

    But a friend of mine replied, "I can't go on strike and quit working because too many on welfare are depending on me". You know....he had a good point.
     
  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    All good points Ice. I think we have instilled fear in the lad.

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    Since oil supplies are controllled by cartel it matters little how much oil is produced in the US as our prices are tied to global prices which are manipulated by the cartel. The only means to a competitive energy supply and demand markets is to either blow away the cartel; create an domestic only oil market; or use alternative sources of energy.
     
  9. Saven Registered Member

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    The USA is the greatest exporter of ideas and methods of production.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well I suggest that you and your friends do go on strike. There are plenty of unemployed folks that would like to have a job right now. I would not worry about the people dependent on welfare, whoever takes your jobs will pay for the welfare folks.

    Two I never said you supported george II, there are not too many people around these days willing to admit that to that deed. There are even fewer folks calling themselves Republican even though they have consistently voted Republican. So I don't try to attach labels to so called conservatives these days. Because I dont know that they know what they want to call themselves.

    As for deficits, folks should have worried about that eight years ago when they voted for a Republican Congress and President. The die for higher taxes was cast continously over the course of the last eight years. Now Obama and congress have been committed by the previous Republican administration and congresses to years of hugh deficit spending.
     
  11. Texas Bob Registered Senior Member

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    Well, lets think about it for a second.

    Why is it that the wacko in Iran claims he needs nuclear power? :shrug: Despite the fact he sits on top of some of the largest oil reserves in the world. I know it isn't politically correct to point out that he wants the nukes so he can "wipe the Jews off the map" or "drive them into the sea" and usher in the 12th Imam...but he also has a serious lack of ability to refine the oil into gas.

    When a major hurricane takes the refineries on the Gulf of Mexico coast off line what happens to the price of gas?

    So what happens if thanks to cap and trade the refineries have to start paying extra taxes and higher utility costs. Do you think they are going to eat that cost or pass it to the consumer?

    The cartels control the oil supply that is used to refine into gas but not the gas supply directly.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I think you have just made a good arguement for Cap and Trade. We need to be less dependent on such a vulnerable supply. We need alternative sources of energy. And frankly, I think T. Boone Pickens has hit the nail on the head.
     
  13. Texas Bob Registered Senior Member

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    I don't have a problem with "alternative energy" and finding a way to tell the oil cartels in the middle east to stick it.

    However, this idea is going to affect the cost of most everything you and I use. The cost of everything is going to go up and is going to hurt the "little guy" way more than me and it is going to push more jobs off shore.

    It is also going to make the housing market less than viable.
     
  14. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Peak oil will affect the cost of everything you and I use. It would be foolish not to prepare, even if things cost more temporarily.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    That chart is completely dishonest, quite obviously and flagrantly so.

    Look at the deficits it attributes to W, for example. We know that in 2008 the US government ran a deficit - had to borrow the amount of - more than one trillion dollars. That chart shows about 400 billion - less than half.

    Is that the source of your estimates for the cost of cap and trade?

    I think they are going to charge what the market will bear for gasoline at the pump, keeping a careful eye on attempts by that market to escape its dependency.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well The Heritage Group is not all that concerned with honesty.
     
  17. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Please, stop with that tired old line. It's like Jack the ripper calling Mike Tyson violent. Bush was just an average Joe when it came to deficit spending. Obama is the international grand master.
     
  18. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    And you and the liberals are?
     
  19. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    well considering that liberals have more of a tendency to go the scholarly route yes.


    (i'll try and find the guy who did the research on it gain.)
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    yes
     
  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Your statement about bush being an average Joe in terms of spending could be applied to bush I but certianly not bush II. bush II was far from the average joe in terms of federal spending. bush II presided over the largest expansion of social programs since FDR in a half trillion dollar federal give away to health insurance companies and drug companies...that is hardly worthy of average Joe status.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    True colors

    I'm not sure that's the right counterpoint on this occasion. After all, if I have my way, Obama's probably going to push some pretty big social spending.

    To the other, though, look at the complaint: Obama is spending red ink.

    We see in this Madanthonywayne's true colors. One thing he and I—and probably you, as well—agree on is that the United States is a pretty cool place with a hell of a lot of potential. But Madanthonywayne wants this country to fall apart. Bush's contributions to the economy can be measured fairly simply. He stared a useless war, spending a shitload. He cut taxes, mostly for the rich, because that's what Republicans do, thereby deepening the hole brought on by his warmongering ways. And he did everything he could to boost oil prices in order to cover for his profiteering friends at the petroleum companies; if anyone thinks the rising cost of energy had nothing to do with the economic meltdown that started with subprime mortgages, well ....

    In other words, Bush trashed the place, and our friend here wants Obama to do nothing. Let it rot. Let things shake out. He wants the rich to come out, well, they'll do okay. And the working classes? They need to be put back in their place.

    That's what this is about. This may be a pretty cool place with a lot of potential, but it's more about the egotistical warm fuzzies one can get from recognizing that. He doesn't actually want the United States to live up to that potential. He'd rather everything fall apart because none of that great American potential should be wasted on unworthy people.

    Think about it: Bush broke the fuck out of this country. When Obama tries to fix it, Madanthonywayne complains. If Obama did nothing, you can rest assured that Madanthonywayne would find a reason to complain. If Obama handed him everything he ever wanted on a silver platter, you can be certain that Madanthonywayne would complain.

    It's all about him, and he's still pouting because the side he picked—e.g., Republicans—made some strikingly bad decisions and the evil, commie-sympathizing, Muslim-terrorist-loving American people went and elected a Democrat. And that's all any of this bullshit is really about. If McCain/Palin had won, we'd be hearing a considerably different song; he'd either be supporting the GM takeover or cheering an even higher unemployment rate because the only Republican conscience about the working classes is that they exist as a target for taking out the frustrations of the rich.
     
  23. superstring01 Moderator

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    Next time you see a McDonald's, Levis, CocaCola (the most recognized trademark on Earth) Hollywood Movie, Rock/Rap/Pop song (shit, the TV's of the world have been oozing with coverage on the death of one of the USA's most noted exports for the past ten days), syndicated TV show, IBM, Apple, Visa, Mastercard, AmericanExpress, CNN, Dell, HewlittPackard, Pfizer, Microsoft, Nike or Boeing (or other sundry American product) advertised on a billboard, TV or radio, tell yourself "...the USA isn't really known for its production and export." See if you can hide from them.

    Nobody on Earth is better known for its production and export. You can't walk fifty feet down the street in any nation without seeing something exported by the USA.

    From Nation Master Export Statistics

     
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