Prove it to me...casting call to all LotR lovers

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Zero, Jan 14, 2003.

  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    i think he ment the rank and file grunt who are no different from the rank and file grunts ANYWHERE
     
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  3. Zero Banned Banned

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    Re: Zero,

    To doubt the evil behind the murders of over fifty million people is ludicrous, and to even suggest that it was not evil, or say that the people trying to kill the bastards behind it were even a hundredth as evil as they were is pure pure insanity. War crimes were undoubtedly committed by both sides, but the Nazis were about as evil as they get, my friend. I don't think there's been anything to compare to them. Hitler comes as close to absolute evil as a single person can go.

    You forget that a history of the war is written primarily by the winners, and that they get to choose who's "evil".

    How about the murder of all the innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Doesn't that fit your description of "pure evil"? You're leaving an important element out.

    Why exactly is Hitler the incarnation of absolute evil? How can such a thing even exist? "Absolute evil" is something the writers of the bible wrote to scare some sense into the readers.

    You give no logical backing for claiming that the Axis were absolute evil. All you give are some random assertions that it is "pure pure insanity" to think differently than you regarding the Axis. Try again.

    No. Sorry, I never said that. Re-read my post

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    You said that you do not look for reflections of the real world when you choose books. Re-read your own post.


    The antagonist in the story that you mention is the fact that the search is not immediately conclusive. If there was no antagonist then the guy that resembled the face in the rock would be standing next to it shouting to everyone that he was the guy and that they didn't have to write a story about it.

    A fact itself can not be an antagonist. It must be a character who works against another. A fact does not work against a character.

    As for the face in the rock story, the guys who claimed to resemble it did NOT interact with the main character in ANY way. They just happened to drop by, the townspeople hailed them and finally forgot them. The hero of the story, who is really the face in the rock, is just an observer for most of the story. At the end, he just thanks everyone (it's considered an honor) for thinking he's the face in the rock and end of story.

    Better try next time for you, Polly. Try harder.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2003
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  5. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

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    Zero, I know there is a difference between propaganda and truth, and I also know that even if we did win WW2 that Hitler and the Nazis were evil. History books are written by the winners, good history books are written by observers. To me, Hitler is absolute evil, because to me, to murder even a single person for any reason is again insanity. This is the basic shared viewpoint of most of humanity's history, however that is not to say there are either holes in our history or exceptions. Find me a culture that does not at least discourage killing for no reason, Zero.

    I know little about this theater of the war, Zero. From what I heard, the Japanese had been brainwashed enough to fight to the last man once the US soldiers arrived on their island. If this is the case, then several times the people that died in the nuclear attacks would have died in the subsequent invasion. However, I do not know this for a fact, and if it is incorrect, and the Japanese were in a proveable process of surrender, then yes, to drop the bomb was unthinkably evil.

    Logicity tends to depend upon the viewpoint.

    Thank you for re-reading. You are absolutely correct. But, you were the one that claimed that I said that LOTR had no reflection of the real world, which I never once did even suggest. You perverted my words into something else.

    Look closer: it does not say one person. One is a pronoun that can mean many things, from one force to one man.

    Where do you draw the line between character and force, eh? Read Percy Bysshe Shelley's Ode to the West Wind. Tell me the difference between a force of nature and a character there.

    Zero, you didn't give me a proper summary of the book to work with. Please provide a title.
     
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  7. Cactus Jack Death Knight of Northrend Registered Senior Member

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    "As Beren looked into her eyes
    within shadows of her hair,
    the trembling starlightof the skies
    he saw there mirrored shimering.
    Tinuviel the elven-fair
    Immortal maiden elven wise,
    above him cast her shadowy hair
    and arms like silver glimmering."

    - Excerpt from The song of Beren and Tinuviel
     
  8. UberDragon The Freak at the Computer Registered Senior Member

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    Holy Jesus!! Cactus Jack lives!! He lives!!
     
  9. Zero Banned Banned

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    Zero, I know there is a difference between propaganda and truth, and I also know that even if we did win WW2 that Hitler and the Nazis were evil. History books are written by the winners, good history books are written by observers. To me, Hitler is absolute evil, because to me, to murder even a single person for any reason is again insanity. This is the basic shared viewpoint of most of humanity's history, however that is not to say there are either holes in our history or exceptions. Find me a culture that does not at least discourage killing for no reason, Zero.

    IF it is evil to kill even a single person for any reason is insanity, I'm sure that the Allies are all insane.

    My point is, WW2 was NOT a battle between good and evil. Hitler was evil......

    ......but the Allies were evil as well. One evil beating another and proclaiming itself to be 'good'. LotR is about good versus evil. Even if we assume "evil" to exist, how can you call a certain side "absolute good"? There is some element of evil in all. The clear-cut borderline between good/evil that is in LotR is a very hazy, murky, and fickle dividing line when it comes to the real world. When it chooses to manifest itself at all.

    I know little about this theater of the war, Zero. From what I heard, the Japanese had been brainwashed enough to fight to the last man once the US soldiers arrived on their island. If this is the case, then several times the people that died in the nuclear attacks would have died in the subsequent invasion. However, I do not know this for a fact, and if it is incorrect, and the Japanese were in a proveable process of surrender, then yes, to drop the bomb was unthinkably evil.

    Well, the bomb doesn't exactly divide itself into millions of mini seekers that ONLY kill civilians. A heck of a lot of, a fucking hell of a lot of civilians died from the Hiroshima blast. An even larger # of people slowly died and rotted away from the nuclear fallout.

    Logicity tends to depend upon the viewpoint.

    I saw no logical backing in the paragraph in question. Now you gave a reason: killing is insanity. Thanks, and no more thought to this q...until you make another paragraph like that

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    Thank you for re-reading. You are absolutely correct. But, you were the one that claimed that I said that LOTR had no reflection of the real world, which I never once did even suggest. You perverted my words into something else.

    Many welcomes.

    Perverted?! Must I take up a title like "Debaser of the Debased Words"? I made a valid extension of your words.

    Look closer: it does not say one person. One is a pronoun that can mean many things, from one force to one man.

    An individual might be a force if it were portrayed as a character, but the fact that the search is elusive can not be an individual.


    Where do you draw the line between character and force, eh? Read Percy Bysshe Shelley's Ode to the West Wind. Tell me the difference between a force of nature and a character there.

    I'll read it if I can find it somewhere...gimme a few days.
    A force is just a principle of some sorts, or an obstacle that keeps impeding the progress of the main character according to some algorithm, whether the algorithm is revealed or not. A force becomes a character when it displays intelligence and creativity as opposed to, say, the sea just brushing Mr Higgs back as he tries to get to his boat. IT's all it does. Brush him back. If it starts, say, to communicate with Mr Higgs or show emotions ("the waves chuckled and roared at poor Higgs") it becomes a character.

    In the story I mentioned, the 'fact that the search is elusive' is not a character. The absence of something (in this case, the guy who is the rock face) is not an object.

    Zero, you didn't give me a proper summary of the book to work with. Please provide a title.

    Dang it, that's the thing that bugs me. I can't remember. If only this rung a bell for someone around here...d'you know anyone who's a literary expert in sciflora?
     
  10. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

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    Zero, they wouldn't have been fighting the war in the first place if Hitler hadn't started it. They killed because they had to.

    Not by a long shot. Each town that was liberated from Hitler rejoiced when the Americans or the British arrived, we would help them out as much as possible. It's not to say that our record is perfect, and that we were absolutely good, but I feel that if I had to choose a side to be on for its morals, I would pick the allies. The Russians were total assholes, I don't really consider them an "ally."

    Yes, the book was written to be a work of mythology, not a melodrama. I agree. Characters are bland because they don't have to be interesting for their to be a cool story that we can all relate to. The ideas behind the story, rather, are what makes it interesting and fun to read and cool. There's a pure-evil ring trying to ensare a pure-good hobbit, the orcs are trying to kill everyone, the elves are fleeing because they know that the war they're fighting is over. These ideas, and more, are what make up the story, there's just way more to it than good and evil, and
    how defined each moral is.

    Ode to the West Wind
     
  11. Zero Banned Banned

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    The Story as I remember it

    Alright, I'll pull this out as I remember it. Again, anyone who recognizes this story...please let me know title/author.

    There's this little village out in the mountains. The people there are very pleasant, kind, and trusting. It's one of those places where you can leave your door open when you go out shopping and not give a damn, because it's such a pleasant, crime free place.

    Along to one side of the village is this mountain, and one big side of it is solid rock. It resembles a big face if you look at it from your back porch. There's a local legend that one day there will come a person who's face resembles that face in the rock. The solid rock is part of the village heritage and people think of it as a friend.

    Now, the main character is called Earnest (I think, don't sue me if he isn't). He longs to see the one who is fated to come. He's one of those rustic, Pleasantville types who go to church every Sunday, go to work on his farm, etc (don't remember his job). Whenever there's a rumor that the one has come, he joins the big crowd to see.

    Three people, in succession, come and go. One is a politician. One is a former general/military hero. One is a rich banker (I think). Each time, people are excited and form a crowd around the new arrival. Each of the three give out this speech. At first, people think they do look like the Rock Face. But eventually, none of them turn out to look like the Rock Face. So people gradually forget about them and Earnest is the only one who remembers and dreams.

    When Earnest gets old, he becomes a senior citizen of some small prestige. He gives out this talk about his life, (now my memory is very hazy here, this is approximately what he did), etc etc. When he's done he sits quietly with his friend. His friend suddenly turns to him and declares that Earnest is truly the one with the Rock's Face. All the people turn to him and it is really true this time. (I'm sure about this).

    Yep, that's the story. Wish I remember the title or the author, but ach.
     
  12. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

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    It sounds like a cool story, but it's my guess that the antagonist is simply the fact that he wasn't next to the rock when the story began. He and everyone else had to wait. Thus, there is a mystery, and one that is solved by overcoming the antagonist: time.

    Now, are you as tired of this debate as I am?
     
  13. Zero Banned Banned

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    Zero, they wouldn't have been fighting the war in the first place if Hitler hadn't started it. They killed because they had to.

    It is utter insanity to kill for ANY reason. It's what you said. Then do you admit that it is legitimate to kill if there is a specific reason?

    If so, then it gets into issues about what is "a good reason". We only think Hitler was evil because he was a threat to the rules of society that we live by. We think that the Allies were "good" (well, at least you do) because they upheld the rules of sociey that we set for ourselves and agreed to.

    Not by a long shot. Each town that was liberated from Hitler rejoiced when the Americans or the British arrived, we would help them out as much as possible. It's not to say that our record is perfect, and that we were absolutely good, but I feel that if I had to choose a side to be on for its morals, I would pick the allies. The Russians were total assholes, I don't really consider them an "ally."

    The best choice from two contenders is far from being "absolute good". There is no absolute good side in this world. It is a concept that only exists in LotR. So LotR and WW2 have nothing in common.

    For one thing, In LotR, there is no mention of the political and economic costs of prepping for war. All they show is people automatically assuming that Sauron is "evil". They support the war effort without any of the protests we see right now. There are no refusals to participate in wars, like Nam. There is no nonviolence campaigns, there is no concern for the welfare of the civilians of the other side, heck there isn't even a reason for war except that Sauron is "evil".

    For WW2, there was a specific reason to stop Hitler. He was a threat to democracy, a good political reason. In LotR, all they say is Sauron is evil.

    Yes, the book was written to be a work of mythology, not a melodrama. I agree. Characters are bland because they don't have to be interesting for their to be a cool story that we can all relate to. The ideas behind the story, rather, are what makes it interesting and fun to read and cool. There's a pure-evil ring trying to ensare a pure-good hobbit, the orcs are trying to kill everyone, the elves are fleeing because they know that the war they're fighting is over. These ideas, and more, are what make up the story, there's just way more to it than good and evil, and
    how defined each moral is.


    Since when did mythology reflect the complexity of the real world?

    And the elves all "know" that the war is over? There is no such thing as prophecy in modern politics. It must be some sort of absolute tyranny or absolute unity, to have that huge population of elves ALL agree on some decision and just leave their homes just like that. No political dissent? No factions? Heck, the assumption that there will be no enemy besides Sauron, and that where they go is a place of peace? They've got no logical reason behind their mass leaving. It is unrealistic, it shows no moral. All it shows is that Tolkein decided to have the elves leave because he's the one in charge of the story.

    I'm reading the poem right now...it's a really good one. I like it.
     
  14. Zero Banned Banned

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    Nope, I love debates. I've been conditioned for them since my days duking it out in the Religion forums

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    Again, antagonist must be an individual! The "fact" has no intelligence, does not interact with the main character or any character, nor does it have any personality.
     
  15. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

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    I want to fly, Zero. Right now. I want to grow feathers from my arms and fly. Why can I not do this?

    It is a scientific fact that I will not sprout feathers from my arms.

    The fact is keeping me from achieving my goal. The fact is an antagonist.
     
  16. Zero Banned Banned

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    Well, from what I see of the poem by Percy Bysshe Shelley, the excerpts above show the Wind to have a distinct personality. S/he's impetuous, s/he dirges, s/he is tameless, swift and proud, etc. The Wind has got a personality, and is therefore a character.

    Are you enjoying this debate as much as I am? I love doing this. The outcome of a debate, to me, is trivial. It's just the fact that I get insight into so many things that is so great.
     
  17. Zero Banned Banned

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    No, an antagonist, according to the definition, is "One ... " and "One" is a pronoun that refers to an individual. A scientific fact is NOT an individual in the current context.

    Also, it says "One who...". "Who" is not a word that is applied to a scientific fact. We do not say,

    "The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is the one who continued to elude whatsupyall's grasp."

    No, we do not refer to facts as "who" or as individuals.
     
  18. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

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    I'm not enjoying the debate at all. You are unwilling to concede to any of my points, and I to yours. It's going nowhere.
     
  19. Zero Banned Banned

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    Aww. I love doing this.

    Any more points to make?
     
  20. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

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    None that I have the inspiration to post.
     
  21. Zero Banned Banned

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    Well, I'm still ready to duke it out some more. A hell of a lot more.

    Is this a surrender? Anyone willing to challenge me?
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2003
  22. Cactus Jack Death Knight of Northrend Registered Senior Member

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    "In that time were made those things that afterwards were most renowned of all works of elves. For Feanor, being come to his full might, was filled with a new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near; and he pondered how the light of the trees, the glory of the blessed realm , might be preserved imperishable. Then he began a long and secret labour, and he summoned all his lore, and his power, and his subtle skill; and at the end of all he made the Silmarils." - On Feanor and the Creation of the Silmarils
     
  23. Zero Banned Banned

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    Pollux doesn't answer! I have prevailed!

    Now unless someone else challenges me, I guess that's a sure sign that LotR is a stupid, unrealistic, cliched book.
     

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