Netanyahu: No deal until Palestinians accept Israel as Jewish

Discussion in 'Politics' started by S.A.M., Mar 8, 2010.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    It takes a lot to defeat illusions. Its possible that Judaism may not survive the fall of Israel even if Jews do.

    On the other hand it is possible that only Judaism will save the Jews from Israel.

    Its going to be tougher on them than anyone else, either way.

    The Palestinians have already saved themselves.
     
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  3. noodler Banned Banned

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    When you say "Jews don't even live there", how many IDF are there 24 hours a day, and why aren't IDF soldiers "living there"? Is it because they're on active duty?

    The army that "sometimes allows" visits, is I assume the escort I would need if the visit took in any settlements, in case some zealot decided I was a spy or something? Or can I implicitly trust all the Jewish Israelis not to aim a gun at me?
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting notion, all things considered

    How so? Could it be that the confusion is part of your perspective?
     
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  7. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    In the first place, the implication that Israelis are, collectively, too nice to destroy Palestine. In the second, the implication that "sense of community" extends to other, hostile communities.

    I doubt it, but I'll keep an eye out for evidence one way or the other.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You're confusing Israelis with Jews. And I did not say they would do it for other communities. Self preservation, although it may come too late for them.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1155460.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,884
    The Lord said, "Peter, I can see your house from here."

    Well, the thing is that novelist Steven Brust, in an interview I've long since lost, once said that politics turns him into an asshole. I think this is somewhat true of people in general. I have a feeling that some of my political opponents at this site aren't the complete assholes they make themselves out to be.

    So I see three factors, nearly inextricable, and entirely confusing to most people: Jews, Israel, and politics.

    If we separate Jews from Israelis—after all, not all of either are both—what do we have? Is "Israel" or, are "Israelis", a heap of rancid assholes? No.

    On TV I saw an old woman rummaging through the ruins of her house looking for her medication, and it reminded me of my grandmother who was thrown out of her house during the Shoah . . . We look like monsters in the eyes of the world . . . This makes me sick.

    (qtd. in Frankel)

    Former Deputy Prime Minister Yosef Lapid spoke those words in 2004, denouncing the effects of Israel's excursion into the Gaza Strip. And with both Ehud Olmert and Ehud Barak, both former Prime Ministers, invoking considerations of South Africa and apartheid, it seems clear that there are some Israelis—and not without influence—who are engaged at some level with reality.

    One need not call on kindness and community; this either is or will come. Rather, in dealing with reality, including the idea that Palestinians are human beings, these Israelis are flickering beacons of hope that there can be some sort of lasting solution to the violence that has carried on for far too long.

    Perhaps S.A.M. is correct; it may well be self-preservation that does it. As Roger Waters sang, "By the grace of God almighty, and the pressures of the marketplace, the human race has civilized itself. It's a miracle."

    The question is whether reality will impress itself in time to prevent cataclysm. While the Palestinians saving themselves may be an article of faith—

    "It takes a lot to defeat illusions. Its possible that Judaism may not survive the fall of Israel even if Jews do.

    On the other hand it is possible that only Judaism will save the Jews from Israel.
    "​

    —S.A.M.'s consideration is not something to be relegated to the realm of unthinkable fantasy. Ahmadinejad isn't the only one in the world who has those kinds of problems regarding Jews. Some Israeli political figures propose a fundamental identification between Israel and all Jews. It would be a shame if the world took them up on that rhetoric, and then tired of Israeli antics.

    Faced with growing condemnation, the Israelis must find some sort of solution. Becoming a minority in their own democracy would certainly make the point, but that is a nearly unthinkable outcome right now. But, regardless of the obligations we might assign the Palestinians, Israel must figure out some sort of solution. A two-state solution is impossible until Israel cedes its intrusive settlements to Palestine. A one-state solution is a difficult proposition to say the least. But if Israel continues to tread outside its rightful borders, or if they attempt to handicap a one-state "democracy" to Jewish favor, they will face increasing hostility that has nothing to do with what one thinks of Hamas or other Palestinian militants.

    Additionally, there are plenty of Jews—Israeli or otherwise—who do understand the necessity of community. If this is somehow doubtful to anyone, I would propose that the Jews could not have endured the grotesque burdens history has assigned them without it.

    But ... politics turns people into assholes. At home, in the States, I've learned that it is very hard to communicate responsible politics to the masses. Try following the health care effort. Or try to figure out just how anyone—Bush, Obama ... anyone—can reach the policies we have toward terrorism suspects. In my life, and especially since Ronald Reagan, the sound bite has carried more weight than logic and reason.

    It's hard enough explaining to Americans why we should honor what few treaties we have with the tribes that remain remotely intact. I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to persuade people if those disputes came to blows. And we're not surrounded on three sides with people who really, really don't like us.

    Reality will either impress or impose itself, on Israel.

    I've been watching this in the back room, too. Right now there is a tremendous amount of presupposition going on, to the point that people are reacting to their own constructions, and not what S.A.M. is actually saying.

    For instance, there is in the Religion subforum a discussion S.A.M. opened about Christian communion. This obviously derives from the controversy about Malay Muslim journalists spitting out communion wafers. However, rather than taking the opportunity to inform S.A.M. about those aspects of the eucharist she might not understand, some people have chosen to resent the thread and continue the argument about how evil Islam is, how bad of people the journalists are, and what the fuck is wrong with Malaysia.

    Making it political doesn't help. Being offended because she said something that didn't offend people when others said it doesn't help. Taking the questions seriously, and trying to provide a genuine answer? Sure, some might see it as a gamble, but if that's the case, give her the rope and let her hang herself.

    Otherwise, it looks just a bit like a lynch mob.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Frankel, Glenn. "Key Israeli Condemns Offensive In Gaza". The Washington Post. May 24, 2004; page A14. WashingtonPost.com. March 10, 2010. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49787-2004May23.html

    McCarthy, Rory. "Israel risks apartheid-like struggle if two-state solution fails, says Olmert". The Guardian. November 30, 2007. Guardian.co.uk. March 10, 2010. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/nov/30/israel

    Lavie, Mark. "Barak: Peace with Palestinians or apartheid". Associated Press. February 2, 2010. Brietbart.com. March 10, 2010. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9DK82A00
     
  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    No, they can't.

    At least, there's no reason to think they can. It never worked before.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    No its based on an overview of their collective voice, they are for the most part, willing to live with their occupiers. They are willing to understand their shortcomings. They are willing to look beyond the boundaries of the ethnocentrism that grips the Israelis - true they have no choices, no dream of a distant Jerusalem to give them hope, so unlike the Jews and like everyone else in history, their choices are limited to their home.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html

    They are even willing to laugh at their situation:

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    They are even willing to poke fun at their enemies

    When you reach that point in your struggle, you've made it.


    The Jews are also getting there, slowly but surely:

     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    72,825
    Donna Nevel of "Jews Say No!" in Ha'aretz:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1154654.html
     
  13. otheadp Banned Banned

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    5,853
    The soldiers that are in the "palestinian" towns are there to (1) keep the peace (these have gradually been withdrawn as PA security forces take over), and (2) to protect Jews who want to visit Jewish holy sites to pray, such as the Machpela cave, where Avraham Avinu is buried (Abraham / Ibrahim).

    Without these soldiers the local Arabs would massacre the pilgrims, as sadly has happened many times before. These Jews don't want to kick anyone from their houses, they just want to go pray without being killed or harassed or having stones thrown at them. The IDF escort them there and back when they leave.

    You can trust Israelis not to point a gun at you. One thing that has always made me proud, and I still don't really understand why this is so, is that even though in Israel there are plenty of guns, no one is trigger happy or quick to draw. I think this is in part because they were all in the IDF and there they teach you "purity of arms" concept. Plus, Israelis aren't as bloodthirsty as some newspapers and academics write about them. They hate carrying a gun and prefer not to draw when there's a confrontation.

    I know a few people who lived in Jewish towns beyond the Green Line. It's just normal towns, that's all. There are some that actually try to expand Jewish settlement deeper into Judea and Samaria -- those guys are more ideological and wild-eyed. They aren't trigger happy either, and will welcome you into whatever little settlement they live in (actually some of them employ "palestinians" from nearby "palestinian" towns.) And if you get in their face about "occupation" they'll yell at you. But that's about it.

    They are also more tough. If you look Arab and you are holding a gun in an aggressive manner then they will not hesitate to face you with their own weapons.

    Some of them burn "palestinian" crops or beat up "palestinian" shepherds in tit-for-tat attacks. They are more victims of violence than whatever violence they perpetrate.

    They are a thorn in the IDF's side. They get protection because they're Jewish, but the IDF soldiers and their commanders feel annoyed that they always have to come to their rescue when they provoke the "palestinians", even though the provocation is the mere existence on that peace of land.

    Anyway, you will be able to travel wherever the heck you want in Israel. And if you visit Israel and tell locals that you're a visitor from an Arab or Muslim country then you'll get the royal treatment - they'll go out of their way to make you feel welcome out of eagerness to dispel the myths and propaganda told about them.
     
  14. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    So basicly your saying well we not going to treat the pals wells ever so they should just submit to this level of abuse? Sorry spider but arguing that thge palestinians should just give up because people like you demand Israel ignore all semblence of human decency isn't really a rational argument.


    Your essentially laying the ground work for an argument for an invasion of Israel to flaunting human rights. I mean we have intervened before to do so(but no where near enough as places like darfur attest) so why shouldn't we here.
     
  15. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    16,479
    Than why do they have a 60 year history of doing just that?
     
  16. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    2,745
    Wow!

    So am i to observe your posts as being first hand?

    Someone call the news if this is so. To read your posts i am shocked!




    that because they are jewish they get protection even thou they TERRORIZING the locals for living there?


    And you not standing between them bigots and the local HUMAN BEINGS?

    Because of the religion?


    No equality and protecting the victims?

    No deal!
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  17. otheadp Banned Banned

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    You seem to be stuck in the realm of academia and hypotheticals (and really shitty writing) while ignoring reality and specifics, and the terrible things that actually are happening today.

    "Apartheid" this, and "racist policies" that. Get out of your ideological stupor and the 5th dimension. Come down to earth and discuss specific things on the ground.

    You're crazy, you know that?
     
  18. otheadp Banned Banned

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    5,853
    I lived in Israel. I know Israelis. I know the psyche of the Israeli Left, the Israeli Right, and the Israeli extreme Right (the Right and the extreme Right are 2 separate entities). ... actually there's an extreme Left too.
    My post would only shock those who have never been to Israel and get all their information from the media and loudmouth ideologues.
     
  19. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    2,745
    Bottom line is, you as a citizen, know that these terrorists imposing to the locals, are perhaps why the locals are so upset with the bias of the 'jewish state'.

    Now do you see why, me an american, is and will question the morality of what is actually occuring.

    You directly are rendering as if it is OK, when you should be a compassionate who, sharing how wrong it is.

    Left/right/up/down.................. the virtues of human compassion exceeds your (any) religion!

    If your son of david walked right now, do you believe he would maintain the same?

    Be honest.
     
  20. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I'm just saying, the ongoing violence against Israel isn't working. The Palestinians need to get their act together and work for peace, as some of their activists probably are. Otherwise, they will get nothing they want, and their chances of a favorable outcome dwindle. I'm completely against the settlements, but I can see how it works politically.
     
  21. noodler Banned Banned

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    751
    And all of these different groups are allowed access to weapons aren't they? The IDF protects all of them from Palestinian "violence", correct?

    In most democracies I know about they would be arrested and charged with plotting insurrection, or at least breach of the peace. The standout reason this does not happen in Israel is that Israel isn't a democracy, it's an ideological regime with a civilian militia, with ongoing conflict the only real unifying cause for its existence.

    Wait, maybe someone can think of another reason for Israel's existence--wishful thinking and billions in military aid...?
     
  22. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    16,479
    save the false concerns for their well being. its worked a whole lot better than just accepting being abused.
     
  23. otheadp Banned Banned

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    "Violence", huh? Quotation marks? Check out this tiny sample: http://www.auscillate.com/post/55

    There are no ideological civilian militias in Israel. There are, however, in Lebanon (Hizballah) and in Gaza where the militia (Hamas) was independent for years and eventually orchestrated a coup d'etat against the more-or-less legitimate government of the PA.

    In Israel many carry personal weapons but there are no organized militias independent of the state's organs.

    When I talk about the extreme left, left, right and extreme right, I'm talking about voters and their views. Not about 4 militias. You really are clueless about Israel and Israeli society... Israel is very much a democracy both on paper and in practice, and you'd see it if you only visited.

    Israel's cause for existence is to have an independent national homeland for all Jews. Israelis just want to be left alone.
     

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