Warhammer 40k Vs StarTrek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Fettman, Jun 4, 2007.

?

Who would win?

  1. Warhammer40k

    26 vote(s)
    59.1%
  2. StarTrek

    18 vote(s)
    40.9%
  1. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Here's a map of the Imperium territory

    Also, one Escort Cruiser WOULD destroy Star Fleet. Why, when you have weapons millions to billions of times more powerful, with shielding that can take these weapons in at least one volley, how can the entirety of the Dominion, Federation, Borg, and Species 8472 beat the Escort cruiser?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    219
    Yes, I even mentioned them IN my post, if you didn't have the patience to read it. However, they are not WEAPONS, and cannot be accurately used as weapons. They are mighty powerful events, but again, a black hole is stronger than any WEAPON a WH40K race can employ.

    EDIT: Alright, I read up on the Blackstone Fortress. It doesn't work like a warp storm at all. It just spews forth energy from the Immaterium. Still nothing like a black hole.

    Also, while some Star Trek physics are bonk (such as Nadion particles), they are by no means ridiculous as Warhammer 40k. At the very least, Gene Roddenberry attempted to use current knowledge within the scientific community. Warhammer 40k is a Science Fantasy with no regards to anything but the Rule of Cool. The talk about the Necron's inertialess drives is a big one. Not only can they negate a fundamental law that applies to anything with energy, they also use it to move faster than the speed of light. No they aren't employing FTLs that attempt to circumvent the speed through different space, Necron ships move faster than the speed of light in real space. They never even attempted to technobabble it. They just told physics, 'Eff you.'

    Sure, destroy one of Newton's Laws, but now you're going to mess with Einstein? Oh, that's just disrespectful!
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2010
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Heard of Blackstone Fortresses? Yeah, when all of them combine, they can create that Eye of Terror in the map I showed you.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    219
    There were only six ever found (none of the races can create them), with one destroyed. They're also even further segmented by the fact that Chaos has two and the IoM has three. They're more of superweapons than ship-to-ship armaments. It's like comparing the turbolasers of Star Destroyers to the Death Star's superlaser.

    Lexicanum
    And nowhere have I seen any proof that all of them combined can create the Eye of Terror. It took two to destroy a planet and three to cause a star to go supernova. The Eye of Terror was created during the Fall of the Eldar with the birth of Slaanesh. If that still doesn't impress you, it takes one black hole to destroy a star and all its planets. Again, there is still no Warhammer 40K weapon that can match the might of a quantum singularity.
     
  8. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    It's in the Necron Codex, don't know which page or edition, but it's there. The ships scale depending on how many there are, and five still sound powerful enough to destroy many light years. You also forget that they create Warp Storms with their attacks.
     
  9. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    219
    That's not good enough. I have one of Stephen Hawking's books that specifically states a black hole could defeat all of the Warhammer 40k's races. I don't know which page or book, but it's there.

    Five nothing. Again, I said two are in the hands of the Chaos and three are with the Imperium of Man. The best that one faction could do it make a star go supernova. No, it doesn't destroy a star, it doesn't suck up all of its contents into a dense singularity, it makes it go supernova. So instead of destroying the star, it just speeds up its destruction. Pretty far cry from what a black hole can do.

    I take back my statement of a warp storm being more powerful than a black hole. It's not.
     
  10. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Proof? The Warp Storms fuck planets and stars in terms of existence (E.I. planets that aren't absorbed yet have blood snow, tar waters, days turning to nights in short time, and etc. from Daemon World's tale) Warp Storms also act like black holes to everything they absorb.

    Fuck, you stated that ST has better physics, and yet we have shitty Federation ships flying INTO them and not having any catastrophic fates occur. Sounds like Trek is WAY more full of shit than what you give it credit for. Roddenberry is a joke in the science community, because he tries to act scientifically, but Warhammer 40,000 doesn't try to use real physics, and that's why it works. Hell, Trek creates such delusional fanboys that believe Borg can beat Xeelee, and Federation can beat Culture, all because of Roddenberry's Treknobabble, well, fuck your Treknobabble Roddenberry!
     
  11. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    219
    Don't warp storms merely just transport things inside the Immaterium? The Blackstone Fortress is specifically stated to open a Warp rift to allow the energies of the Immaterium to seep out in order to cause destruction. A storm by itself is nothing more than just an entrance way into the Warp itself. So the absorption doesn't really do what a black hole does. In a few hundred years (past or future), the planets and star will probably pop out somewhere else, highly Chaosified, but still in tact.

    And turning planets into a setting for a Lovecraftian novel is hardly something I consider destructive. Unless Cthulhu comes out and beats up the Chaos gods, which are blatant ripoffs.

    I'll give you credit for that. But Roddenberry didn't write that. Hell, he didn't even have any hand in the entire series that happened in. He was dead when Star Trek: Voyager rolled off. And besides Enterprise, I think most people agree Voyager is one of the worst Star Trek series. And that by itself could totally be used against all other series (ability to survive a black hole), though I'd prefer to disregard that huge plot device.

    Again, I'm not here to really defend Star Trek. I'd think they lose. I'm on the side of physics.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Wait, what? Your logic is as good as Warhammer 40k's physics. Is this tantamount to you giving up? Because that statement was truly ridiculous. Let me put that in perspective for you:

    "Warhammer 40,000 doesn't try to use real physics, and that's why it works."

    You might as well state: "Ricrery doesn't try to use real logic, and that's why it [his discussion] works."

    I never once stated any of that. Again, I came into this discussion defending the power of a black hole, not really Star Trek.
     
  12. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Remember the episode when Troy loses her ability to read emotions? They are being pulled into a black hole-like object, and when the 2D dimensional beings let go, they casually fly away. Granted, it probably wasn't an actual black hole, but it could have an anomaly of the same magnitude.

    I mean, they don't care to put in real physics, Star Trek's motives were "Hey, let's make up bullshit things and say they're real!" while Warhammer 40,000 is like "We don't care about physics, we just want to want to look badass!"
     
  13. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    On one thread, it had Cthulhu vs Chaos Gods, and Chaos Gods were the only ones to get votes. Chaos Gods would stomp low level beings like Cthulhu, who can be beaten by simple ways.
     
  14. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    219
    Could. But could also not. If you read up on it, it's not a black hole, just a gravitational force. So obviously this means quite nothing.

    Star Trek has semblance to physics. True, some things are utter nonsense, but they at least attempt to pass it off as something we can understand. Why do this? It's so we can at least suspend our belief and consider the possibilities.

    Warhammer 40k doesn't do this. They break such blatant physical laws that suspension of belief isn't even possible. Hardly anyone attempts breaks general relativity or Newton's Laws unless they're trying to go for comedy, like Red Dwarf or Space Balls. And because there's no semblance in reality, there's absolutely no point in comparing the two universes, as there's no point of reference.

    Warhammer 40k does have its place, and that's the same place where we talk about Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann or Mr. T and Chuck Norris. But I don't consider WH40k as a valid science fiction, and there's a reason why it's called science fantasy (besides the fact of having space elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.). To be honest, I don't even know where this discussion is going anymore.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Is everything a competition with you? That was a humorous statement. If we're going to toss out physics, then by Rule of Cool, Cthulhu and the Outer Gods are way better than the Chaos Gods, regardless of what a poll says. If a SciForum poll states Star Trek is better than Warhammer 40k, would you accept it?

    Black hole > Warhammer 40k. Let's get back to this part.
     
  15. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    There IS a poll, and W40k is winning it. This is the only poll.

    No, a black hole can be canceled out by a Warp Storm because escaping would be easy with the jump. Just jump directly in front of it and the Black Hole won't work. I wonder what a Warp Storm creating over a black hole would do?
     
  16. Renrue Someone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    219
    The point is, popularity contests don't equal proof. You can not honestly be arguing that because people vote a certain way means everyone who does vote is a super scientist that mapped out possibilities through theoretical mathematics. Perhaps you have too much faith in democracy.

    Hey, if you trust polls that much, make a poll in a Star Trek forum. Make a WH40k vs Star Wars at Stardestroyer.net. While it does not mean it is entirely wrong, most people do vote base it on preconceived notion and through bias than actually comparing two universes (if even possible considering some impossibilities).

    Assuming they can even jump at all. You forget the part where your super impenetrable hull becomes a thin string of particulate matter in the face of a giant gravitational well that sucks in even light itself and drives the galaxies (whole galaxies) in their spin. It's definitely not going to be anything like the Executor crashing into the Death Star II, where you could just turn your thrusters back on to not get pulled in.

    Considering a warp storm is a portal to a dimension to a swirling maelstrom of energy and a black hole is a super massive gravitational singularity, I would assume it would suck out the Immaterium (energy) into a singularity. Although considering how much energy is in the Warp, the black hole would probably create a wicked quasar out of the Immaterium with a humongous relativistic jet beaming out.
     
  17. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    No they don't.

    I honestly don't think the drones would live long enough against anything worth assimilating. They'd have to use force fields or something.

    The nova cannons that were directly shot down for orbital bombardment because it would take many hours in the 13th Black Crusade?
     
  18. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    *sigh*

    1) The Necrons don't exactly stomp the Imperium at every turn, do they? No, they don't in fact they can lose. And the Imperium, working with two crutches and a broken arm, is really not capable of handling them at full strength.

    2) The Imperium is not really technologically advanced compared to the Federation. Granted, they are ahead in some areas, but really, in many cases the Federation exceeds them. I would also comment that while the Imperium is much more massive, it's also not nearly as healthy as the Federation, which has a stable economy and isn't constantly being worn down.

    3) Q has the powers of a god--and he belongs to a race of gods. I don't think it was anything more than scolding him for being childish.

    Can we just kill this dick vs. dick argument here? Please?

    Impressive...and? It's not like the Imperium's size comes as a great advantage when they can't bring a majority of it to bear. In case you forgot, despite their great size, their fleet is maybe only twice as large as that of a nation composed of about 8,000 LY, where they're about 75,000 LY if I recall correctly.

    Ie, the Imperial Navy has what, no more than 50,000 starships? The writers for DS9 considered Starfleet to have 30,000 starships at any given time when the war began--and they were still getting spanked by fraction of the Dominion's full force. The one thing that is of interest is that both sides employ old ships. The Federation has been seen to field nearly century old starships (in some cases, over a century old) and the Imperium fields ships centuries old--some don't even have shields (called ironclads).

    However, the major difference is that while the Imperium is slowly decaying, the Federation recently faced a reawakening of military competence via the Dominion War. They're in the process of replacing all of their older ships with more powerful, smaller ships like the Defiant and the like.


    Based on what? Fankwank? Your argument is just silly. Where is the evidence that their ships are so absurdly powerful? Durable, that I can understand, but uber power? No. Ie, Nova Cannons (as I mentioned above) were not considered useful enough to bombard a planet during the 13th Black Crusade. Space Hulks, which were capable of surviving Nova Cannon hits, required bombs armed with 122x 5 gigaton warheads--and that was pretty much retconned out in the next two editions when the text was removed (probably because of how silly it sounded given how fucking large a fusion bomb of such size would be).

    I don't know. Why do Titans whose power are calced in the megatons at most show to be capable of harming orbital warships?


    That said, let's think about this.

    The Federation could hold its own against the Imperium well enough--better than they would if the roles were reversed actually. Without the astronomicon (or whatever it's called), their ships won't be able to travel very far in Federation space and where as it takes generations for patrol ships to go through their patrols, the Federation can circle the entire UFP in six months.

    But could the UFP defeat the Imperium? No. The UFP FTL is just too slow to cover the territory and it's really just a too brutal of a fight. 40k may not be in such a great condition, but they will fight tooth and nail for every inch of land--something that Trek just isn't into. Nor could the UFP win if the Imperium was able to focus its entirety of its forces against them; they're outnumbered almost 2 to 1 and the Imperial fleets have the advantage of using absurdly large ships. It would simply be too much for the Federation to think of it being worthy.

    You'd see a treaty between the two powers within six months to a maybe two years, depending on the political climate of each power. It would also be in each other's best interest since the UFP's sophistication would improve a great deal of problems the Imperium faces, especially with mutated geneseeds. And if anyone wants to argue that point, I galdly point you to the augments, who genetically enhanced humans, tossed Klingons clear across corridors with little effort and they were the byproduct of technology that even the 22nd century considered to be out of date. Given the genetically enhanced people of the 24th century can literally have the ability to kill you inconciously just by being in the same room with you, I don't doubt they could fix any sort of problem the Marines have. Hell, they could literally grow better marines and even update their armor (in some instances).

    The Klingons
    The Klingons are intersting in that they're one of the few nations willing enough to see a war through. On the other hand, their combat capabilities are laughably bad. Assuming that they're as powerful as they're written (not potrayed by out of shape actors), then it's a bit of a different story when it comes to ground forces--but they'll be trounced by the Space Marines easily enough.

    That said, the Klingons would be best if they're the ones after the Dominion War and having fully recovered. The reason is really simple; the Klingon Empire before the Dominion War had lost alot of its spirit and many of its ships were just as old--if not older than Starfleets. The D7 for example, has similar designs reaching back before the formation of the Federation itself!

    But there's more to that, simply due to the political isseus with Gowron (who was fucking incompetent) and the lack of medical capabilities of Klingon doctors (which, made them cool, but it also left their forces weaker because Klingon warriors were expected not to recieve any sort of medical assistance.

    Still, the major issue is ships. With a rebuilt Klingon Fleet, the Klingons would have larger ships with more modern cruisers and dreadnoughts as opposed to the D7s (that fuck, even the Romulans stopped using). I could see the Klingons staying in constant War with the Imperium, but I again, honestly don't see them defeating the Imperium or making anything other than a small empire the size of the Tau.

    Romulans
    The Romulans wouldn't really want to get into a war honestly. They'd probably want to sit back, scheme, spy, and scheme some more. They wouldn't make a move until they gained the ability to properly wage war upon something as large as the Imperium.

    The Dominion
    The Dominion is honestly the only Trek power that I think could take this (besides the Borg--if they cared enough). They alone have the technological skill and numbers to overpower the Imperium. Their only problem is that their ships aren't fast enough, but then again, the Dominion is also pretty patient, so I can see them waging a century long war to take down the Imperium.

    One thing that would strike me as interesting is the bit that the Dominion could really make their own version of Space Marines from the Jem'Hadar. If they were to get a hold of a geneseed, then they could honestly make troops just as powerful as a Space Marine and with their advanced technology, could probably make mass produced power armor that could rival that of a marine.

    It's also rather worth noting that the Dominion is far more brutal than the Federation; they're probably the closest thing to the Imperium in ST. Both aren't above bombarding planets, using biological weapons, and superweapons to destroy their enemies. The difference here is that again, the Dominion has a healthier industry; we saw that they were rivaling the Klingon/Federation during the war despite being undersupplied. A full powered and unhindered Dominion would be incredibly deadly to the Imperium.

    The one thing that the Dominion would have to work on is defending themselves from Chaos and matching psionic enemies, though that can't be too hard given that even the Federation (which is inferior in the genetics field) is able to create some moderatly powerful telepaths, with some work, the Dominion should get something moderatly reasonable.

    Again, the problem is a lack of speed, but the Dominion, if anybody, can overcome that problem, especially with a century to work on it. I wouldn't be surprised if they developed transwarp, in which case the Imperium is fucked.
     
  19. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    The Necrons have to be taken out by losing their power source, like a Necron Lord being totally destroyed, which is hard. The Imperium's warships can't stand a fight with them unless the Necrons are massively outnumbered, and even Tomb Worlds can take bombardments that destroy continents and turn planets uninhabitable for generations (See Ciaphas Cain omnibus).

    Some areas? They are more advanced in MOST areas. See, FTL (Farseer had them travel 50,000 LY in 6 months), firepower (lances and weapons batteries are triple digit teratons to low digit petatons as sourced on SDN.net), acceleration (Ships can travel +.75c while bombarding each other), healing tools (In Space Wolf, the Space Marines can use materials to heal wounds closed in moments, like Beverly Crusher), interrogation tools (Eisenhorn, the Glaw interrogator can stick a needle into this one part of the brain with three words so that they must tell the truth no matter what), shielding (shields on a warship can take 1.2 petatons before falling, and if the ship doesn't have pressure on it, they immediately pop back up), durability (self explanatory, and parts of the adamantine can absorb 1/3-2/3 of the firepower that hits them), weapon androids/robots (Comparing anything the Federation can create to a Skitarii or Weapons Servitor is pretty cruel), land weaponry (Titans can do even more than Federation weapons with the Volcano Cannon, and they can fire twice at once), and other things. See, most of their things are superior, but the only things the Federation has is things of entertainment or lifestyle, in warfare they are so screwed.

    There is no proof that they are totally omnipotent, maybe reality warpers, but even the Celestials from Marvel can beat them (see, Cosmic Cubes can create universes, and Celestials are millions of times more powerful than them).

    Prove that they only have 50,000 ships. They have millions of planets in the Imperium (see Space Wolf for reference), and each sector has 50-75 WARSHIPS like Retributions or Emperor Class ships, which means that they have tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of warships alone, their entire fleet consists of millions of ships.

    Yet none of their ships can match a, I don't know, escort cruiser? Because an escort can do 300 teratons in BFG. An escort from the Founding could take a hit from a weapons battery, which is arguably 100 teratons-2 petatons.

    No, the fact that they can do 300 teratons, and that they have 4 torpedo tubes for drilling weapons.

    A broadside from a warship can destroy a continent, and the BFG rulebook says that a lance can destroy a city, which in W40k covers parts of a continent enough to be seen in space, well, at least Hive Worlds and Forge Worlds do.

    The Nova Cannon has always been assumed to be in the petatons, and those torpedoes are designed to drill into a ship, and detonate in the interior, which is clearly weaker than the exterior, even if it was retconned.

    Sources? Warships could take teraton class weaponry for half an hour before being massively crippled (again Space Wolfs), and I could give you an entire thread to prove that they are indeed teraton-petaton weapons.

    Um, the Imperium, like other major civilizations would blow UFP out of the water in terms of brute force, speed, and ground forces. Seriously, the megaton weaponry we see is considered "high end" even though megatons are used in ground operations by massive 15-100m warmachines.

    The Klingons from DS9 can't even take women with no weapons while having weapons themselves. The Klingons are overhyped idiots who even the Cadian children could beat, and their ship tactics aren't any better, just watch as the station blows up their idle ships.

    Please prove that their weapons can match Imperium ones in land and space.

    Did you ever bother to look up BFG calcs? There was a moon drawn on a moon that a lance could destroy, and 1 centimeter = 1,000 kilometers, now, the moon was 6 centimeters high and wide, which means a lance could destroy a 6,000 km moon... yeah, the Dominion AND Borg are royally fucked in the ass if they even think about standing up to the Imperium, but then again, the Imperium would destroy them anyway for being Xenos.

    Until the Jem'Hadar can actually WIN an engagement, then we'll talk. Why are you wanking Trek so much? The Imperium IS EXCEEDING TERATONS WHILE STAR TREK PHASERS GENERATE NO MORE THAN A FEW TERAWATTS.

    LOL. First they have to EXCEED a GIGATON, then they have to EXCEED 300,000 OF THEM to MATCH A SIMPLE CRUISER. All your civilizations are ROYALLY fucked!
     
  20. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Can they take a Type XI phaser array to the face? No? Didn't thinks so.


    Post the quote.

    Not really. Their FTL is only that fast due to the astronomicon or whatever it's called. And that is an amazingly absurd outlier. Ie, the minimum travel time for 5,000 LY is 5 months and a maximum of 3 years. As per the 40k chart, most ships would take a little over 4 years at minimum and decades at maximum. And by the way, most jumps last at most, 5,000 LY.

    And of course, outside of that territory (ie, UFP territory), their ships drop to a crawl of 5-6 Ly jumps.

    Sourcing SDN is like trying to claim that Jews are all evil and then sourcing the Nazi. Post the actual claims. Let's see these uber firepower calcs.

    Post it.

    Post it.

    And? A betazoid can simply mindrape them. Or a so could a Vulcan.

    Proof?

    Which I find unlikely given it's x5 stronger than steel.

    Meh, holograms with guns are better.

    Overglorified runabouts.

    .

    Based on what? Let's see some of these god-like examples of firepower.

    ...um, what?

    Millions? I think not. 1,000,000+? Sure.

    Oh, and this:

    That puts it at an upper possibility of 99,999 warships and a more reasonable number of about 50,000 starships.

    and in fact...

    50,000 LY in 6 months my ass.

    Which is why in the 13th Black Crusade, they decided that the fleet with Nova Cannons weren't sufficient enough for orbital bombardment and instead had to send a strike team.

    Oops.


    So naturally you will explain to me why balls of white-hot flame are a threat to ships that can toss out ubertons of energy, right?

    Or how about...

    A fusion cannon huh? The ones that cause nuclear reactions? How could a fusion cannon be any sort of threat to ships that regularly take petatons of firepower?

    Prove it.

    Yeah, except that the book is addressing the READER. Therefore, it's the author explaing firepower to the reader, which from their understanding, would be a modern-sized city. And guess what leveled one of Japan's city? Oh, a 10 KT nuclear weapon. My my.

    No they aren't. A Nova Cannon is not a precise strike weapon. It's designed to get within close proxmity of the target and then go boom (or implode--depends). The Nova Cannon is in no way supposed to drill into a target.

    SDN actually (laughably). But go ahead and show me teh ter@t0ns.


    So...then you have absolutely no doubt that titans have mt level firepower?


    Wait, you mean the woman with combat training who fought most of her life in part of a guriella army against the Cardassians?

    Um, idle ships? They weren't exactly idle. And even if they were, what does it matter? Trek weapons are impressively accurate at hundreds of thousands of km.

    Well, let's first get your high end calcs so we can see where you're coming from.

    I'm sorry, what? Moon drawn on a moon? What the fuck does that mean? And why are you using 6,000km when the same quote mentions cities and mountan ranges being destroyed?


    Dude, you haven't quantified anything for the Imperium. Stop acting like you have.

    Um, excuse me? The Dominion was royally fucking the Federation for the first few months of the war and was still matching them years into it. How would that mean that the Jem'hadar would never have won an engagement?

    What makes you think I'm wanking? If I was wanking, wouldn't I be claiming teraton level photon torpedoes or some crap like that?

    Again, more false claims. Prove them.

    Um, I'm not a member of the Federation.
     
  21. ricrery Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,616
    Would it take down a Tomb World? No? Didn't think so.

    Where's my medal?

    Here?


    Yet, Eisenhorn was able to cross Segmentum Ultima in a few months (that makes up the northern part of the galaxy), and other novels have them crossing the tens of thousands of light years in months. I say novel wins because those events can be retconned.

    That thread gives me triple digit teratons on lances, ha, Star Trek can't beat that with any ship!

    I thought you used sources, actually, every person I asked states they go at .75c, and I KNOW there was a thread that gave an Emperor Class the acceleration of 10000 Gs.

    Don't have a .pdf. It still erases wounds, and they also have cement to repair chipped ceramite.

    Yet the Cardassians can't. Hell, a Delta Class Psyker like Eisenhorn could mindrape an individual until they lost consciousness.

    Look up the ships on Gamesworkshop.com and you'll see numbers.

    What? Seriously, you're NITPICKING, BFG rules easily rip your 13th Black Crusade quotes apart. 300 teraton for one hit, ahahaha! Breaks your Nova Cannon statement apart!

    Is the first one enough?

    No. Space Wolf omnibus says millions. Plus, Eisenhorn omnibus SHOWS there are MANY planets the Imperium hasn't even marked down with the "one million", such as feral worlds with no protection.

    For warships maybe, but let's not ignore all the little cruisers and escorts, and transports... yeah, let's bring those in. I mean, they all pump out teratons.

    Compare that to every novel that says otherwise... oh, and the Rock (giant ass Dark Angel ship) can cross 1,000 ly in a week. That means that a ship that massive can cross almost 143 light years a day, and in 700 days, they would cross 100,100 light years, so it would take that massive hunk of a ship less than 2 years to cross the galaxy, and them some.

    Oh, the novels prove that wrong, and so does BFG. It takes over 30 minutes for a ship to destroy another with lance weapons, because in "Grey Hunter" the Space Wolf boarding party takes a lot of time killing many Chaos infected individuals, and by the time they get there, they set it to 13 minutes and get out while their ship is being damaged by lance guns, and by the end, the ship is damaged, yes, but the Space Wolfs can still celebrate with alcohol.

    They are DRILLING weapons, which means they cut through armor like bolt shells do, then they detonate inside the interior.

    I already did.

    I was talking about hellfire missiles that the Space Hulk book talked about destroying Space Hulks.

    attlefleet Gothic Rulebook, Games Workshop, Page 8:
    "Battleships are the largest fighting ships in space. They can absorb a tremendous amount of damage and mount weapons batteries capable of laying waste to entire continents."
    More support for many teratons from battleship weapons, though this quote is unspecific about time frame.
    ---
    The kinetic power of the Nova Cannon alone is impressive.

    Well, the lower limit is high kilotons, and the upper limit is very low gigatons, so that would be the standard.

    Well, she punched one ONCE and it fell unconscious, but then another stabbed her in the rib, didn't stop her. Seriously, it doesn't matter how well trained you are, you can't just knock an alien warrior in a few punches even though you just got a wound in your rib.

    They weren't maneuvering around it, that's for sure.

    I did.

    I meant the moon was drawn 6 centimeters, and one centimeter is 1,000 km, so a lance could destroy a 6,000 km moon.

    Because they aren't. It says 64 megatons, and they're omnidirectional so 32 megatons, and when it hits its target, not all the power is there. So, a photon torpedo is under 30 megatons. However, novels have "continent sized fireballs" done in a short time.
     
  22. Hellblade8 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,099
    Actually, it probably would. Energy is a great deal more powerful within atmosphere of a planet. For example, a 50 megaton photon torpedo goes from being a weapon that requires near-surface detoantion to be effective, to having a shockwave that stretches out for miles.







    You don't get one.

    But since it seems your rather young, allow me to explain why. The reason is that SDN is a really bad source for information. What the poster here has done is take a rather vague statement and taken the highest possible result from it and passes it off as the means. This is a rather dishonest method of debate.

    Let's look at his quote again, shall we?

    We're told that a flotilla could level the entire continent. Note how here we aren't given a time frame in this sentence. Now onto the next one:

    This sentence here doesn't indicate that the contient would be leveled in a couple of barrages, but rather the cancer. What is the cancer? The Necrons. Tell me, how far spread is the Necrons in this case? Major cities? Towns? Villages?

    You see the problem here is that as long as these weapons are at least 10 kt level or above, they're perfectly capable of doing that. Take for example, modern nuclear missile warefare. America doesn't employ large, powerful single 30 megaton warheads. Instead, if we were to perform a nuclear strike, we would use multiple smaller ones probably in the single digit megaton or even in the double digit kiloton, depending on what we were aiming at. The reason is that, numerous lower yield strikes will cover more ground than one single nuclear strike.

    Also, how large is the continent? Is it America sized? Australia? What? And again, how far spread are these Necrons? Surely he's refering to the ones also burried, so one could calculate the level of firepower based on the distance of the ship below the surface, but other than that, you don't need anything more than double digit KT firepower. And that's assuming you're targeting multiple cities. For example, let's go with a low estimation of 10 KT per weapon, just for estimation's sake. Let's say that every ship gets say, five shots per salvo and two salvos. We have four ships, so that's 10 x 4 = 40.

    Remember Japan? Now imagine 40 similar cities all the East Coast of America suffering the same thing. But we both know they have more than just five guns, don't we? More like 20, am I right? Probably more. So going with one megaton and assuming about 20 guns with two salvos, what does that give us? Well, that's 40 shots x 4 ships = 160 cities go bye bye.

    So, do we really need teratons of firepower to achieve what the marine was saying? No, no we don't. We don't even need megatons to get that. We just need firepower equal to something that's been around on this planet since the cold war.

    So, I must ask, have you read the novel? Because the only way for Connor to get what he's claimed is for every square inch of the planet to be jam packed with Necrons. I somewhat doubt that.


    No, not really. The reason why you see such variations is mostly because of writer inconsistency. If anything, the book should be taken over all because of it. Take Star Trek for example; none of their calcs are even remotely correct. In one episode, Data was maping a course that covered tens of thousands of light years and the Enteprise did it all within one sitting! Yet, Voyager is supposed to take decades to cross similar distances. See the problem?

    Now, the issue here is that the Warp is unpredictable. There's actually a chart that indicates that there is a certain level of time it takes to cross distances on average. In many cases, it can take decades to cross the Imperium. Rare instances can have months. In some cases, it's taken centuries for a ship to come out of warp. But these are generally taken as outliers and for good reason. Speed of plot is a very bad basis for ship speeds.

    Already dealt with this above. No, it doesn't. The problem here is that you're too eager to accept good news. The guy you're using is a wanker. Think, you can do this. If KT firepower can level a city in Japan, what would a bomb 1,000x (10 megatons) stronger than that do? What about a bomb 100,000x stronger (10 gigatons) or how about 100,000,000x (10 teratons)?

    Think about this. You say tripple digit teratons. Do you remember that the comet/asteroid that killed of nearly all life on this planet was 100 million megatons? Or 100 teratons? Are you honestly going to suggest to me that in order to kill the Necron force on the planet, that ships with that sort of firepower were required to hit the planet 40-160 times in order to kill off the Necrons? The claim is entirely outlandish!

    I mean honestly after the first five or so there would be nothing left alive on that planet.

    Is it from the same source? Because honestly, if that's the case, I wouldn't trust them. Also, the Nova Cannon fires at 5,000km/s, so I can't honestly believe that to be true.

    Um...what?

    ...and?

    So could a powerful telepath? Hell, Spock's brother was able to basically brainwash a loyal crew into turning against the captain they'd trusted for decades.

    That's shifting burden of proof. You need to prove your claims.

    Post them. Thus far, your single quote has been entirely unimpressive and based off false assumptions and literal text from a novel, which are by their nature, typically not literal.

    No.

    Feral worlds? What the fuck is that going to do for them? Feral worlds are full of people who have fucking spears and knives as weapons. Typically made of bone. And can I see this source?


    It was speaking of the Imperial Fleet. Warships can be used as a general term to refer to a specific classification or to a ship designed for combat; ie, cruisers and escorts (possibly transports).

    And stop indicating teratons when you haven't proved it yet. You look like an asshole.

    The rules, which sets down the very basic facts for the series, says otherwise. And while 1,000 LY in a week is faster, it's only 4x faster, which fits in with outliers.

    And your calculations are wrong. For example, covering 1,000 LY has an average time of 1 month to 6 months. 5,000 LY on the other hand, can take 5 months to 3 years.

    ...What does that prove? How does that disprove the idea that the Nova Cannon doesn't have ubertons of firepower? It just shows that theyfought another ship with lance batteries, boarded, killed some shit, and went drinking afterwards.

    Plasma torpedoes are used as anti-ship weapons. They have never to my knowledge, ever been described as drilling weapons. Nor have fusion cannons. And even so, how do you expect that suddenly kt-mt firepower can melt through a hull, but they can withstand weapons hundreds of thousands of times more powerful? By your logic, the ships would be instantly vaporized if Fusion Cannons or Plasma Torpedoes were any sort of threat.

    The absurdly big ones reserved for Space Hulks, of which one of the larger ones has shown the ability to take a nova cannon without dying--yet a couple of hellfire missles will atomize one?

    That quote tells me absolutely nothing. You do not need teratons to lay waste to entire continents. The Federation could do that in Kirk's time with low MT level weapons. Yes, I'm serious. In the case of A Taste of Armageddon, Kirk gave Scotty General Order 24 (the original Delta Base Zero by the way), which means that the Enterprise (all on its own with a total of four phaser banks and four photon torpedoes and no more than maybe 150 torpedoes) would destroy the inhabited surface of the planet (and it was an advanced civilization by the way).

    Do I get teratons now? No, because you don't need teratons to ensure that all life on a planet ceases. Hell, there's even a case where in one episode, Kirk uses a single bomb the size of a bowling ball to tear off half the atmosphere off a planet--leaving a crater the size of a continent where the bomb exploded.

    It moves at 5,000km/s. It's impressive, but it won't really do anything. Especially if your targets are moving at say, around 3,000km/s. Besides, that's a load of shit considering that it doesn't deliver energy via kinetic energy. It juts gets near the target and explodes.


    You have absolutely no idea how retarded that sounds, do you? Tell me, what is the firing range of one of these things?

    ...Okay. And?

    So, it's not that the Klingon was a pussy, but that the one they were fighting was actually pretty badass?

    Actually some of them were, but putting on the dodges? No, not really. Given what their fleet was doing to them in what, the span of twenty minutes, I wouldn't be surprised.

    I'm not understanding you. What sort of scale are you using here? Where is this from? You haven't given me the context of this claim.

    Actually, photon torpedoes in like, later TNG era ceased being omidiretional weapons and were suggested to have shaped yields. It's why in early TNG they were afraid of firing high yield torpedoes without shields or numerous of them even with shields at close range, but by the time of DS9, they were tossing them out like candy.

    Also, where are you getting your calculations from? I mean, the most reasonable high end/low end that I've found was in Apocalypse Rising, where photon torpedoes fired by a Bird of Prey (a scout ship by the way) targeted at Gowron's command center would destroy the building and kill everyone within 'a few hundred kilomters' (I took it as 200 for reserved calcs). It came out at 1.025 gigatons.

    And no, those aren't wanked yields. Using the methods that Connor has employed, I could use many episodes of Trek to get that same result--but much larger numbers. Much, much larger. Want to see them?
     
  23. ProphetofWisdom Almighty Tallest Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    297
    What class of ship was carrying this Nova Cannon? As I recall they can vary from class to class. We have the 5000km/s as a low end and the high end being near the speed of light.

    One of the LARGER ones. No judgment can be made without being able to compare the two Space Hulks.
     

Share This Page