Yet another reason to hate California...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Cowboy, May 6, 2010.

  1. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    That would be a shared history, in point of fact.

    And, again, by now it's much more about celebrating Mexican-American heritage and contributions to American culture, than the defeat of French colonialism.

    It's all about Mexican Americans. Mexico itself doesn't really give much of a shit about it.
     
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  3. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Everyone involved in the story is an American. There is no conflict over national identity here, save the one the white agitators wish to drum up.

    That you'd endorse the message of the racist white kids that Mexican Americans aren't real Americans is despicable.

    Symbols have no meaning of their own - it's how they're employed that determines what they mean, and whether that's a problem.

    And to that point: there's really no way for a minority to use the flag to make a comparable statement directed at white people. There's no special holiday for honoring the contributions of white people to America, nor any undercurrent in the majority that white Americans are "real" Americans.

    So while I endorse your call for consistency, it's pretty much moot. Minorities don't have the agency to make equivalent statements in our culture.

    Meanwhile, I am confident that the standard of excluding and punishing disruptive behavior and speech is applied to minorities at least as consistently as white students.
     
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  5. CutsieMarie89 Zen Registered Senior Member

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    That wasn't my point. All I said was that the school can punish a student who is wearing specific clothes just to start stuff, even if their clothing is generally not offensive. But that is neither here nor there in this case. But if the boys intentions were to belittle and offend, then they should be asked to change their clothing. It'd be like going to black student union wearing a white supremacy shirt. Normally you can wear whatever you want, but in certain venues you are obviously doing it to be obnoxious and start crap.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
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  7. PieAreSquared Woo is resistant to reason Registered Senior Member

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    the crawford idiot even celebrates it .. oh yeah it's a drinking party

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  8. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think it's just one dude, dude! From what I understand and have been hearing especially as of late, this is a systemic problem of pro-illegal immigration groups and nationalist Mexicans (who, strangely, don't seem to like it in Mexico all that much... :grumble: ) who feel it is their right to have a special day where the flag of the very country they are trying to occupy is not allowed to be flown. They think they are entitled to whatever they want because America owes them for being illegal Mexican immigrants.

    And now they feel offended because they love Mexico so much but moved here because they can actually find some decent money (either through honest work or drugs or handouts or whatever) that Mexico couldn't or wouldn't provide, and they see people actually acknowledging that they are in the US of A, and we have the United States of America flag, Stars and Stripes, etc. They are offended that they are living in a country other than Mexico, and that the people there would dare to wave their own flag. Of course, it's completely understandable why they would be offended. I mean, it IS understandable, isn't it?
     
  9. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

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    Mexican Americans?
    What is meant by "Mexican American" anyway?

    Are they Mexicans, Americans, North Americans, or United States citizens of a mostly Hispanic (whatever that means) background? Does it mean Mexican who lives in the United States of America and feels offended by the red, white, and blue flag of our country that has generally been referred to throughout history as just simply America ?
     
  10. Cowboy My Aim Is True Valued Senior Member

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    It's not about shared history. The origins of the Cinco De Mayo holiday has nothing to do with America.
     
  11. Cowboy My Aim Is True Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you'd already checked the citizenship status of everyone involved.

    And I maintain there IS a conflict over national identity, even if it's only the perception of it. Students who wanted to celebrate their Mexican heritage were upset that others wanted to show pride in being American. That sounds like conflict over national identity to me.

    I saw no evidence that the pro-American kids were racist, and at least one of them was half Mexican. Nice try, though.

    Saint Patrick's Day, Irish-American Heritage Month, German-American Day...
     
  12. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Americans of Mexican descent.

    Which would also include some number of dual citizens.
     
  13. Ganymede Valued Senior Member

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    Please, the only people who engage in those racist entanglements are the losers. Usually social outcasts who're poor students, and deplorable athletes. The type of slackers you see standing outside of the school grounds smoking cigarettes, without a backpack because they're not a school to learn.
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Variation on a theme?

    I would suggest it's not just about Mexican Americans. That Mexico itself doesn't give the day much notice is significant in its own context, but I'm thinking along another track here.

    For most of my friends in the Seattle area, Cinco de Mayo is a drinking holiday. And we thank our Mexican American neighbors for it. Indeed, if a group of people came into a local bar on May 5, wearing the American flag as a statement against the day, they would be lucky if a beer shower was the worst they got. Or maybe not. Lots of people round here are stoned, so in some bars the response might be, "Stop harshing the buzz, Jingo McBuzzkill!"

    But, yeah, they'd be laughed out of the place. Just like any Amerosupremacist would be laughed out (at best) for trying to make a similar statement on St. Patrick's Day.
     
  15. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    For the story in context rather than the story being turned into deceptive inflammatory political theater go to this link and watch the first video http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/scavenger/detail?entry_id=63078&tsp=1.

    My impression: The small clique of flag wearing kids were being provocative for the sake of being provocative. I don't think that group of friends that caused the problem were all that racist. One was part Mexican and if his friends did not mind him being part Mexican they probably also were not hard core racists. I don't think these kids were really being patriotic. They only wore the US flags because it was Cinco De Mayo and they knew they could get some attention by wearing US flags on that day. That 40% Mexican school celebrates Cinco De Mayo.

    Those kids were essentially saying fuck you to the Cinco De Mayo celebrators. That is why the principal intervened when some other students complained. Across the USA, school policies on free speech and free expression are all over the place. High schools generally are not as free as universities or shopping malls. Many high schools ban various political expressions but these kids were not really expressing anything except some vague hostility for multiculturalism and a desire for attention.

    The school backed down from it's stance but since Cinco De Mayo was over that backing down was meaningless.

    As a high school principal what should you do when some of your students are trying to deliberately antagonize others of your students? What should you do to a obnoxious and provocative heckler at a high school basketball game? These kids were hecklers and heckling is free speech but deliberate attempts to inflame tensions between cliques at a high school is bad counterproductive behavior.

    If the kids wanted to thoughtfully protest against multiculturalism should the kids have more free speech rights than if the kids wanted to be antagonistic just for the fun of being antagonistic?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2010
  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Terrorism? Really?

    From the link you offered:

    Others clearly not from Morgan Hill are furious, coming out in support of the boys and venting their rage at the wrong Live Oak. Take the Live Oak school district in Santa Cruz County. It has received several angry messages, including this letter from a Watsonville resident who criticized officials for not firing the Morgan Hill principal:

    "We are going to promote the families filing a lawsuit against your district. This will of course bring all your names to a national level and hurt all the innocent children. It's up to you to be fair and active! We are scared this man and his hidden agenda of anti-American and pro-Mexican can cause a violent reaction in our community."​

    The school district's Web site set the record straight with a headline that reads: "THE INCEDENT (sic) REGARDING STUDENTS WEARING THE U.S. FLAG WAS IN MORGAN HILL, CA." It's linked to an ABC7 story. Superintendent Tamra Taylor also said:

    "The newscast that mentioned the students being suspended for wearing red, white and blue was Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, not in Santa Cruz."​

    In another case of mistaken identity, Live Oak High School in *Sutter County* received a call from someone who threatened to set off a bomb or shoot at the school.


    (Yoo)

    Setting aside for the moment that the Live Oak incident itself is considerably more complex than the public debate allows ... really? This is worth terrorism?

    And what competence! I guess it's not just Islamic extremists who make idiotic terrorists. Ooh, let's go bomb the wrong fucking school.

    I suppose I shouldn't be astounded by that. Politics aside, Americans can be really stupid if they are determined to.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Yoo, Aileen. "Friendly reminder: School at center of flag tees uproar is in *Morgan Hill*". The Scavenger. May 7, 2010. SFGate.com. May 7, 2010. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/scavenger/detail?entry_id=63078
     
  17. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    It's a holiday in Puebla, where the battle it commemorates took place. A small contingent of Mexican troops defeated a large, better-armed force of Napoleon III's army, galvanizing the Mexican people into believing they could actually win.
    This was a thank-you. The Mexicans put up such a fight that the French were not able to divert any resources to help the Confederates in our Civil War. Had they done that, our war would have gone on even longer and killed even more Americans. As it was it killed more than two percent of our population, probably the bloodiest war since the days of Genghis Khan. It created a rift between Northern and Southern Americans, and between Euro- and Afro-Americans, that has not healed 150 years later. This country would be a much different place if the Civil War had lasted several years longer.

    So when the Civil War was over, American troops were discharged, given passage to the Mexican border, and allowed to join the Mexican army. With their help, Mexico defeated Napoleon III, and the two countries have been bonded ever since. After Pearl Harbor and again after 9/11, Mexicans lined up around every American embassy and consulate to volunteer for the U.S. military.

    This is what Cinco de Mayo is about.
    It's more than that. It's about the history that the two neighboring nations share. We each helped the other overcome the influence of France, which was not exactly an honorable country in those days. Many Americans would have preferred that we enter WWI on the German side, because they never forgave France for siding against us in our Civil War.
    Ethnic terminology changes more rapidly than most vocabulary. But for the past fifty years, "Mexican-American" refers to people who:
    • Are of substantial Mexican ancestry. Not necessarily pure, which anyway begs the question of what is "pure" Mexican ancestry, since Mexico is a Melting Pot like the USA;
    • Have or intend to put down roots and remain in the USA, raising their children as Americans;
    • Celebrate some significant portion of Mexican culture, even while living predominantly as Americans; and
    • Identify with a community of other self-identified Mexican-Americans, at least some of the time.
    Of course not. Throughout our history, Mexicans have assimilated into the general population as rapidly and unceremoniously as any immigrants. In the first generation (the immigrant generation) they intermarry with us at the rate of 30%, and by the third generation... well it's hard to find anyone who even identifies himself as a third-generation Mexican-American. Except people like Bill Richardson and Linda Ronstadt, who use it for publicity.

    Today, it's become fashionable for the children of Latino immigrants to know no Spanish. A few years ago the leading Mexican-music radio station in Los Angeles had to hire all English-speaking disc jockeys.

    Re-read the opening paragraphs in this post. Mexicans love the United States with a passion, going back to when we saved them from being conquered by France. They will always die to defend America, just as Americans will always die to defend England.

    For an American to insult Mexicans, for the acts of a few rowdy kids, dishonors both nations.
     
  18. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks Fraggle, I learned some things there.
     
  19. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Well... that's the history it refers to. But I don't think that Cinco de Mayo is "about" history so much as it is about cultural celebration and - more than that - an excuse to go eat Mexican food and get wasted on cheap beer and margaritas while wearing a novelty sombrero.

    Which is fine, so far as that goes. But I find that it's only things like events sponsored by schools or outreach organizations that get into the history at all. Most Americans seem to think it commemorates Mexico's independence from Spain.

    In the first place, Bill Richardson is the son of a Mexican woman, and himself grew up in Mexico (although he was born in the US). So he isn't a "third-generation Mexican-American" by any definition I'm familiar with. He's either first or second generation, depending on how you count.

    In the second place, I've never heard him refer to himself as "Mexican-American" of any "generation." I've heard him refer to himself as "Hispanic" - which is perfectly accurate and is, moreover, the preferred term to "Mexican American" in New Mexico. I've heard others refer to him as "Mexican-American," but nobody that represents him.

    And I grew up in New Mexico, by the way.
     
  20. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    I know I am descended from the same Thomas Richardson 1636 immigrant to Woburn Massachusetts that Bill Richardson gets his last name from.

    Just saw that he is also descended from Mayflower passenger William Brewster who came in 1620 but was two generations earlier than Thomas Richardson. I am also descended from William Brewster.

    http://www.wargs.com/political/richardson.html

    There is no consensus whether "first generation American" means the immigrants or the immigrants children.

    I guess Bill Richardson is a first or second American and simultaneously is a 13th generation American.


    I hear that In Santa Fe there is a clear distinction and separation between the people of Mexican descent who have lived their since before the USA took over New Mexico and the more recent Mexican immigrants.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  21. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    No, some students who wanted to celebrate their Mexican heritage were upset with others who wanted to use the American flag as a way to express their hostility towards students wanting to celebrate their Mexican heritage.

    Do you also feel hostility towards people living in the USA who want to celebrate Cinco De Mayo? Do you feel hostility towards people wanting to celebrate Saint Patrick's day?

    Those kids who chose Cinco De Mayo to suddenly get interested in wearing the American flag were being nasty creeps but why?

    It is the principal's job to interfere with the freedom of students who would if unchecked interfere with the safety of the school and quality of the school's leaning environment. In this case the principal's job duties came into to conflict with the students free speech against multiculturalism.

    I don't feel threatened by Multiculturalism and I have no resentment towards the Mexican illegal immigrants and their children as individuals. My loyalty to the American middle class and the Americans who were already here does make me dislike illegal and legal immigration and outsourcing of jobs to China. I have loyalty to what was good about American culture but mostly my loyalty was to the people and not to their culture or race. The part of American culture that spews hatred against Mexicans disgusts me.

    I don't believe this story is really about free speech. I think this is another episode in the culture wars. I believe that the people who strongly resonate with the emotional sentiment of "us versus them" resent the rest of us for stopping them from repressing the onslaught of strangeness.

    I am not opposed to cracking down on illegal immigration but I hope the USA never embraces cultural or racial purity. I am OK with some "us versus them" type kids not being allowed to use the American flag in school as a method of expressing hostility towards "them" even though I am generally quite strongly in the pro free speech camp.
     
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    My pleasure. For more on these issues (including an expansion of my own post), see the thread on Arizona's Immigration Law on the EM&J subforum.
    Sociologists invariably include it with Oktoberfest, St. Patrick's Day and Chinese New Year. It's a day to celebrate an interesting foreign culture and honor the immigrants from those countries.
    Most Americans are compulsively ignorant of any history that happened before our grandparents' time, which we heard about first-hand. We have to be! Otherwise we wouldn't be able to sleep, haunted by the fact that the only reason we're here in this land of plenty is because of what our ancestors (spiritually if not DNA) did to the Indians.
    Sorry, I didn't do my homework. Most Americans who wait until adulthood to proclaim a heritage nobody even knew they had are the grandchildren of immigrants. My grandparents came from Bohemia (we call it the Czech Republic now because it's easier to spell and pronounce) and after being raised in a complete cultural vacuum I celebrated my 30th birthday in Prague. Linda Ronstadt and I grew up in Tucson at the same time (we never met but our daddies knew each other) and her family didn't make any big deal about their Mexican ancestry. (There was a huge wave of German immigration into Mexico at the same time they were coming here so lots of Mexican people have German surnames in addition to the accordions and tubas.)
    Racial terminology changes at least once per generation. Just look at negro-N-word-colored-Afro-American-African-American-black. When I was a kid they all just called themselves Mexicans, with no clue as to which country they were born in or how many generations of their family had lived in Arizona. Then chicano came into vogue, then Mexican-American, then Hispanic, then Latino--and not necessarily in that sequence. With detours for La Raza and Aztlán, although no one goes so far as to call himself Azteca since that was the civilization they obliterated and besides, like almost everywhere in Latin America Mexicans look down on their indios.
    Although I spent the worst eight years of my childhood in Arizona (breathing through my mouth; every grain of pollen from all over the world lands in the desert) I never grew up. What is that like?

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    The dictionaries certainly don't express a preference but I have found a modest consensus to be:
    • A first-generation unhyphenated American was born here.
    • A first-generation hyphenated American (Mexican-, Italian-, Asian-, etc.) was born there.
    This is probably especially true on the West Coast, due to the influence of the Japanese immigrants, who have their own vocabulary. Issei, "first generation" (literally "first born") unequivocally refers to people who were born in Japan. Nisei, Sansei, etc., "second-generation, third generation," etc. refers to people who were born here.

    The 442nd Regimental Combat Team was one of the most decorated units in WWII, with one of the highest casualty rates, fighting with epic bravery on the European front. It was comprised entirely of American-born Japanese-Americans, most of whose parents were languishing in Manzanar and other relocation camps (which despite revisionist propaganda were nothing like Hitler's camps, with decent food, housing, education, entertainment, medical care, outside communication and even Boy Scout troops). They referred to themselves as "the Nisei unit," and in honor of their patriotism and sacrifice under the most humiliating conditions, I guess we all just standardized on the Japanese definition of "second-generation." My college roommate was born just as his parents were being shipped off to Manzanar, but getting him to talk about it was impossible. He said, "Once our people saw the photos from the liberation of Auschwitz, we decided as a community that the most honorable thing we could do was to simply forget about our own relatively mild mistreatment and move forward."
    There was some of that in Tucson as well, although it was hardly acrimonious.
    Spend some time in rural Mexico before you make that judgment. No roads, no services, no jobs, no hope. They make their way to the boundary that represents the greatest disparity in income between any two contiguous nation on earth, look at the other side, and see "poor people" who all have cars and cell phones, and whose greatest nutritional problem is obesity. The only way they can fulfill their obligation to their family is to get on the other side of that boundary and send money to them.

    Our national leaders' campaign to keep Mexicans in poverty has never lost momentum. NAFTA put most of their corn farms out of business, so all the men who used to earn a living picking corn are now unemployed. The only way they can support their families is to come work on the corn farms in Iowa.

    Don't be an "Ugly American." We really are all one big family.
     
  23. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Cinco De Mayo, was nothing more than a marketing ploy to sell Beer to Americans, not sure? if it was Corona or Budwiser who came up with it.

    It is not a holiday in Mexico, or even celebrated as a national holiday.
     

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